Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[FROGSMILE]

On 31/05/2018 at 13:10, Toby Brayley said:

 

It's a nice one , from Infantry Training 1905. It has been sat on my book shelf years until someone pointed the images out.  On much closer inspection it is interesting to note that although armed with Mk1 SMLE and the 1903 Bandolier Equipment he still carries a Mk1 (3 rivet) 1888 Bayonet,  one of the only images I have ever seen of it in use. 

 

 

Yes, it’s a fascinating and rare image and must be one of the last times that a VR cap badge was in use, given that it must be an early trial photo shortly before the old Queen died.

Edited 1 June , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Buffnut453]

Dumb question but would this chap, with cloth RAMC shoulder titles, have enlisted prior to or in the early stages of the War?  

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Buffnut453 said:

Dumb question but would this chap, with cloth RAMC shoulder titles, have enlisted prior to or in the early stages of the War?  

 

 

 

 

It’s likely just prior to 1908, in which year a return was made to metal shoulder titles (in ‘gilding metal’ - an alloy), allegedly because they were cheaper than the woven worsted cloth.

Edited 1 June , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Buffnut453]

Interesting...and thanks for the speedy response.  Sadly, he's another one of the "unidentifieds" from my family's photo collection.  However, knowing roughly when he might have enlisted may help in his identification.  

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, Buffnut453 said:

Interesting...and thanks for the speedy response.  Sadly, he's another one of the "unidentifieds" from my family's photo collection.  However, knowing roughly when he might have enlisted may help in his identification.  

 

Glad to help.  A return was made to use of cloth titles for some units after 1916, as a war time expedient, but that seems less likely in this case.

[Buffnut453]

I'll do some more digging.  I suspect he was a member of the local Territorial Field Ambulance.  Maybe one day we'll work out who he is! 

[Toby Brayley]

Its an usual style of RAMC cloth title, almost looks like a slip on shoulder title with its font etc  rather than the coloured earlier shoulder titles. 

 

I have seen similar styles with other units in use during the Great War. 

[Buffnut453]

4 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

Its an usual style of RAMC cloth title, almost looks like a slip on shoulder title with its font etc  rather than the coloured earlier shoulder titles. 

 

I have seen similar styles with other units in use during the Great War. 

 

Thanks Toby.  I can confirm that it is definitely sewn onto the jacket...the stitches are visible in the photo.  From what you're saying, it appears that I can't draw too many conclusions from the presence of the fabric shoulder title.  It could be pre-war or it could date from during the Great War.  Ah well...it was a bright idea while it lasted!

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

Its an usual style of RAMC cloth title, almost looks like a slip on shoulder title with its font etc  rather than the coloured earlier shoulder titles. 

 

I have seen similar styles with other units in use during the Great War. 

 

You make a good point Toby, and I recall now that the acronym type shoulder titles of the 1902-1908 period, e.g. RGA, ASC, etc. were usually made up of single letters sewn on individually, and very different from the infantry titles, something that surprised me when it was first pointed out.  With that in mind I think you are right that the title shown is made up from a slip on title of off-white letters on khaki that has then been sewn on as a patch.  Well spotted!

Edited 4 June , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Buffnut453]

I get the sense that it's something more substantial than the fabric I would associate with  a slip-on title.  The edges of the badge are merrowed (yes, I've been using Google again) which I've only seen on thicker, more substantial cloth badges.  I fully accept that I may be mis-applying (my scant) knowledge of the subject, so happy to be contradicted.

[Toby Brayley]

17 hours ago, Buffnut453 said:

I get the sense that it's something more substantial than the fabric I would associate with  a slip-on title.  The edges of the badge are merrowed (yes, I've been using Google again) which I've only seen on thicker, more substantial cloth badges.  I fully accept that I may be mis-applying (my scant) knowledge of the subject, so happy to be contradicted.

 

I would still go with that style being 1914-1918 though.  Every other similar style  I have seen like it has been in the period & usually RAMC.  It is not very common though, so it is an unusual photo! 

[Toby Brayley]

Hammer and Pincers Crossed above Wheel. 

 

With the combination does this signify two trades or like the AOC does it mean he is an Artificer? 

[FROGSMILE]

On 05/06/2018 at 09:27, Toby Brayley said:

Hammer and Pincers Crossed above Wheel. 

 

With the combination does this signify two trades or like the AOC does it mean he is an Artificer? 

 

The combination of wheel and crossed hammer and pincers was laid down for an RA (Armaments) Artificer from the mid-1880s onward.  Also Metalsmiths.

The Bombardier pictured wears a late 1890s pattern ‘frock’ of the final style, with chest pockets, that was replaced by the 1902 pattern drab mixture (brownish khaki) Service Dress (SD).  Yet another rare image of the last pattern of undress frock.  Most books on British Army uniform have completely ignored the evolution of this working garment that continued in use from the 1850s (India) until 1902 (at ‘Home’) and was seen for slightly longer on ‘Foreign’ service.  The final pattern was in use for such a short time, because the 2nd Boer War intervened.  For this reason relatively few can have been made so that survivors in military museums are extremely rare.  The pattern used by the cavalry and infantry was quite plain (except in some Lancer regiments), but that adopted by the RA and Departmental Corps often had facing collars and decorative cord braid on collar and cuffs.  So smart was this arrangement that the auxiliary forces (non-regular) invariably adopted it for walking-out as an alternative to full dress tunics.

Edited 2 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

The combination of wheel and crossed hammer and pincers was laid down for an RA Artificer from the mid-1880s onward.

The Bombardier pictured wears a late 1890s pattern ‘frock’ of the final style, with chest pockets, that was replaced by the 1902 pattern drab mixture (brownish khaki) Service Dress (SD).  Yet another rare image of the last pattern of undress frock.  Most books on British Army uniform have completely ignored the evolution of this working garment that continued in use from the 1850s (India) until 1902 (at ‘Home’) and was seen for slightly longer on ‘Foreign’ service.  The final pattern was in use for such a short time, because the 2nd Boer War intervened.  For this reason relatively few can have been made so that survivors in military museums are extremely rare.  The pattern used by the cavalry and infantry was quite plain (except in some Lancer regiments), but that adopted by the RA and Departmental Corps often had facing collars and decorative cord braid on collar and cuffs.  So smart was this arrangement that the auxiliary forces (non-regular) invariably adopted it for walking-out as an alternative to full dress tunics.

 

Thank you kindly. 

 

I snapped this image up because of the insignia and my obsession with Frocks.  I think we can date the image to post 1911 as he appears to be wearing the 1911 Coronation Medal with his QSA/KSA

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Thank you kindly. 

 

I snapped this image up because of the insignia and my obsession with Frocks.  I think we can date the image to post 1911 as he appears to be wearing the 1911 Coronation Medal with his QSA/KSA

 

 

 

 

 

Yes I think you are right Toby.  Once SD was issued there is visual evidence that the rather smart final pattern of frock was not considered a workaday garment, as frocks had previously always been (vide many photos of RA Volunteers at annual training camp), but more a smart alternative to the full dress tunics that were increasingly reserved for only the most formal of occasions.

Edited 5 June , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

This has to be ,  without a doubt , one of the rarest. I have never seen it before and I doubt we will see another. Army Pay Corps, Ireland c1905.  Note the white piping on detachable shoulder straps as worn by the Corps. I am unsure about the colour of the title and the inner piping on the Shoulder Straps. 

 

 

Edited 6 June , 2018 by Toby Brayley

[Andrew Upton]

3 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

This has to be ,  without a doubt , one of the rarest. I have never seen it before and I doubt we will see another. Army Pay Corps, Ireland c1905.  Note the white piping on detachable shoulder straps as worn by the Corps. I am unsure about the colour of the title and the inner piping on the Shoulder Straps. 

 

If the OR's followed the same pattern as Officers, it would be white edge piping with yellow central stripes. With orthochromatic film rendering yellow dark, that would fit the image very nicely:

 

https://postimg.cc/image/7xjbp25cr/

 

[FROGSMILE]

Yes, I agree.  The APC used yellow as a facing colour right from their inception.

[Toby Brayley]

Thank you both. 

 

NCO's of the 25th Brigade Royal Field Artillery. 1909

 

Very nice array of badges here, Gun Layers, with Spurs, Crossed Swords and Prize Battery. There are also some odd medals. 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

On 04/06/2018 at 15:24, Buffnut453 said:

I get the sense that it's something more substantial than the fabric I would associate with  a slip-on title.  The edges of the badge are merrowed (yes, I've been using Google again) which I've only seen on thicker, more substantial cloth badges.  I fully accept that I may be mis-applying (my scant) knowledge of the subject, so happy to be contradicted.

 

I have just been reading the account of an RAMC stretcher bearer who is recorded as rescuing (with two others) a badly wounded, Lieutenant Bernard Law Montgomery (later of Field Marshal fame), which is accompanied by a photo of himself in service dress.  I thought it worth mentioning that he wears exactly the same pattern of cloth shoulder title, but in its original slip-on configuration.

[FROGSMILE]

On 31/05/2018 at 13:10, Toby Brayley said:

 

It's a nice one , from Infantry Training 1905. It has been sat on my book shelf years until someone pointed the images out.  On much closer inspection it is interesting to note that although armed with Mk1 SMLE and the 1903 Bandolier Equipment he still carries a Mk1 (3 rivet) 1888 Bayonet,  one of the only images I have ever seen of it in use. 

 

 

I omitted to mention that the cap badge shown on the Brodrick forage cap (VR cypher in script) was ordered for all ‘Garrison Staff’ in 1894 and 1902 Clothing Regulations, and for a while the SofM were obliged (much to their chagrin) to consider themselves as being under that category and thus wearers of the badge.  Fortunately the school were permitted to drop the cypher and return to their own, long-standing departmental badge after a short time (well before the Great War). 

Edited 11 June , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Royal Engineers Malta, January 1905.   Lots to see here, various styles of ill-fitting K.D (worst chevron placement I have ever seen), R.E Cloth titles and Brodricks! 

[Toby Brayley]

 From King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) Museum... the holy grail of S.D Jackets.  

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

40 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

 From King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) Museum... the holy grail of S.D Jackets.  

 

 

 

Appears to be the 'Acting Sergeant Major' of a TF Battalion (a regular Colour Sergeant on attachment), who was in the unique position until 1915, of being a sergeant major, but not a warrant officer.

Edited 25 July , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

 Rather happy with this one. Unsent Postcard of Royal Engineers c1904. A mix of detachable shoulder boards and cord twists with R.E Cloth Shoulder Titles. Note the covered Brodricks and Victorian era Leggings. The RE drivers are distinguishable by the use of spurs and Puttees, still wound the standard way in this early era. The drivers all appear to carry a form of pistol order but sadly every pistol and pistol case is obscured.