Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[Deb R]

5 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

The uniform shown is not Boer War period, but later, even if only a little later. There is nothing to suggest that could not be as late as August 1914 except the headdress.

 

I don't think the star on his right cuff is the 5 point distance judging star. It baffles me because it seems to have 4 points and  I don't know why it is there.

Thank you for your reply ... problem is if you look at the medals they are Boer war medals ... I think I have to accept it will remain a mystery :-) 

 

blessings

deb 

[Muerrisch]

Not sure what your point is.

Yes of course they are Boer War medals but medals are issued after a canpaign and worn for remainder of service.

[FROGSMILE]

On 14/01/2018 at 11:40, Muerrisch said:

Not sure what your point is.

Yes of course they are Boer War medals but medals are issued after a canpaign and worn for remainder of service.

 

Deb is unaware that the home service frock being worn is the 1902 pattern, Muerrisch and it was pointed out to her in the VWF that the medals are the SA pair.  The FS cap (i.e. pre-Brodrick type) makes it clear that as a Regular (as evidenced by a good conduct badge and a marksman badge), the photo has to be close to the 1902 date and thus Boer War era if not splitting hairs.  I agree that the star shape is not the usual type (more like the VF/TF proficiency star), but given his Regular status I do not believe it would be for anything but distance judging (which is associated with musketry and marksmen as you know).

Edited 16 January , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

when was the Distance Judging Star Introduced.. 1904? 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

when was the Distance Judging Star Introduced.. 1904? 

 

I don’t have reference to hand at moment.  I think before that, as I vaguely recall reading of ‘first catch’ problems with Martini Henry and Lee Metford.  Muerrisch will know.  It will be interesting to relate the date to the photo.  Deb does know the DOB for the soldier as 1885 or 1883, and the young soldier looks about right for either year, given the maturity rendered by his moustache.

Edited 15 January , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Mercian]

On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 10:58, Toby Brayley said:

4th (Volunteer) Battalion of the Cheshires in covered Brodricks. C1904

 

 

[Mercian]

Just now, Mercian said:

 I wish I had the 4V to go with this ST. I have never seen a photo of any Cheshire VB wearing a number other than 4

[Toby Brayley]

Very nice Mercian thank you for sharing!  A rare bit of colour in the thread, gave me an idea. 

 

Just a few of mine.  

 

Original VF/TF Efficiency stars on Khaki/Drab and Scarlet

Original  SNCOs 4 pointed Proficiency Star 

Original Crossed Rifles with Star on Scarlet, best shot in Company etc.

Crossed Rifles in Bay Leaves with KC,  Best shot of Sjts in Regiment or Battalion. 

 

[Deb R]

On 14/01/2018 at 19:40, Muerrisch said:

Not sure what your point is.

Yes of course they are Boer War medals but medals are issued after a canpaign and worn for remainder of service.

 

On 14/01/2018 at 20:27, FROGSMILE said:

 

Deb is unaware that the home service frock being worn is the 1902 pattern, Muerrisch and it was pointed out to her in the VWF that the medals are the SA pair.  The FS cap (i.e. pre-Brodrick type) makes it clear that as a Regular (as evidenced by a good conduct badge and a marksman badge), the photo has to be close to the 1902 date and thus Boer War era if not splitting hairs.  I agree that the star shape is not the usual type (more like the VF/TF proficiency star), but given his Regular status I do not believe it would be for anything but distance judging (which is associated with musketry and marksmen as you know).

I'm thinking I'm just way to out of my depth, you have been so generous in your help with Ted and you have helped bring my ancestors to life and I feel I know them better because of your knowledge and patience. 

 

blessings

Deb 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Deb R said:

 

I'm thinking I'm just way to out of my depth, you have been so generous in your help with Ted and you have helped bring my ancestors to life and I feel I know them better because of your knowledge and patience. 

 

blessings

Deb 

 

You can’t be expected to have the knowledge built up by others over several decades Deb, and I’m sure that you understand a lot more now than you did originally.  I can only suggest that you write down Ted’s estimated career in sequential stages in the chronological order that you have discovered.  If you use simple language that you understand it will help you build up a picture and remember key facts so that you don’t find yourself asking the same questions several weeks apart. Perhaps that will help.

Edited 20 January , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Deb R]

On 20/01/2018 at 23:23, FROGSMILE said:

 

You can’t be expected to have the knowledge built up by others over several decades Deb, and I’m sure that you understand a lot more now than you did originally.  I can only suggest that you write down Ted’s estimated career in sequential stages in the chronological order that you have discovered.  If you use simple language that you understand it will help you build up a picture and remember key facts so that you don’t find asking the same questions several weeks apart. Perhaps that will help.

Good plan - I've been meaning to sit down and start writing everything down like I did with Joseph Wade, I've got a big job ahead of me that's for sure.  So far you've been spot on :-)

Edited 21 January , 2018 by Deb R

[AmericanTommy]

Mounted member of the 1st Gordon Highlanders taken at Liss and Longmore Camp by Harvey & Co.

 

 

 

[Toby Brayley]

That's a brilliant one, we are slowly building a great reference here!

[FROGSMILE]

20 hours ago, AmericanTommy said:

Mounted member of the 1st Gordon Highlanders taken at Liss and Longmore Camp by Harvey & Co.

 

 

 

 

The likely date suggests Transport Section rather than Mounted Infantry, although there was a short period when both were on the establishment.  However, the latter were not established for horses and borrowed them from the cavalry school for their 2-week annual training.

[Toby Brayley]

Some nice detailing here, just able to make out 1 V NORFOLK on the shoulder straps of the Frocks. Proficient Sjts Stars, Efficiency Lozenges, Gun Layers and SNCOs gun badges.

 

Aside from the badges there are  some nice period accoutrements! 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

Some nice detailing here, just able to make out 1 V NORFOLK on the shoulder straps of the Frocks. Proficient Sjts Stars, Efficiency Lozenges, Gun Layers and SNCOs gun badges.

 

Aside from the badges there are  some nice period accoutrements! 

 

Great mixture of frocks, tunics and canvas work (fatigue) suits Toby.

Edited 22 January , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

A nice study of Royal Garrison Artillery shoulder titles c1905.  A mix of early Service Dress with twists and detachable shoulder boards, of interest is the early 1900s habit of wearing the clasp knife on a neck lanyard, very common with mounted units of the era. 

 

Note once again the appearance of the Victorian era leggings;  My original brown 1900 dated ones are marked to the RGA. 

 

 

 

 

[Toby Brayley]

[FROGSMILE]

Great to see.  There is a final pattern blue frock at the back (chest pockets only), which was a garment replaced by the drab SD.  The leggings emphasise the dismounted role of the RGA.  There’s also a mix of the old rank stripes and the new woven herringbone issued specifically for 02 SD.

[Toby Brayley]

Sjt Major French (and his rather luxurious bell tent) of the Royal Dublin Fusiliers 1905.   Title is just R.D.F. 

Edited 29 January , 2018 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

Sjt Major French (and his rather luxurious bell tent) of the Royal Dublin Fusiliers 1905.   Title is just R.D.F. 

 

What a superb photo Toby, thank you for posting it.  It's especially evocative given the Sjt Maj's unique role and status within a battalion.  Junior officers usually shared a bell tent (according to the battalion scaling) and field officers had a tent each (incl the adjutant).  The fact that the Sjt Maj has the same is telling.  The same tent was used for 8 men and their personal kit.

Edited 29 January , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Interesting that he appears to be wearing the standard SD jacket of the era, rather than officer-cut. Perhaps it was his scruff order.

[Toby Brayley]

 4 pointed star worn on  right cuff! Perhaps a substitute for DJ or VE Star?

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

 4 pointed star worn on  right cuff! Perhaps a substitute for DJ or VE Star?

 

 

 

I think that that might be the case Toby.

[Muerrisch]

That is not the first one we have seen either.