Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[Toby Brayley]

Thanks chaps. Am I right in thinking though that it is a "unique style"  of 4 point star.  I.e different to the NCOs proficiency ? 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Interesting that he appears to be wearing the standard SD jacket of the era, rather than officer-cut. Perhaps it was his scruff order.

 

Yes, visual and circumstantial research suggests that authorisation for an officer ‘style’ garment (not always the cloth too) was not given from the outset, but rather as an afterthought.  There was also the added complication of the India establishment, where ‘european’ warrant officers and sergeant majors (where not WOs) were frequently authorised to wear quasi Officer items, on repayment, that were forbidden at ‘home’.  This seems to have been to ensure that senior men of that category were seen to be dressed in a superior manner to their ‘native’ equivalents.  A reflection of the different times.

Edited 29 January , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

Thanks chaps. Am I right in thinking though that it is a "unique style"  of 4 point star.  I.e different to the NCOs proficiency ? 

 

I’m only aware of the one type. My guess/assumption is that with the demise of the VF in 1908, for whom the badges were intended, special authorisation might have been promulgated via routine orders to use up existing stocks as an alternative badge for DJ.

[Muerrisch]

The star looks normal 4 point to my eyes. In various uses it soldiered on and on and on ....... officer cadet A Cert and B Cert pre 1914 [red, and gold] .......right up to CCFs until recently , if not even nowadays.

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

The star looks normal 4 point to my eyes. In various uses it soldiered on and on and on ....... officer cadet A Cert and B Cert pre 1914 [red, and gold] .......right up to CCFs until recently , if not even nowadays.

 

Yes, I recall also an Army Cadet Force (ACF) version of it, coloured red and used for a two stage military proficiency badge.  A half shape decreed as Cert A Part 1, and full shape as Cert A Part 2 (i.e. fully qualified).

Edited 29 January , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Here you go:

4 Point star on a corporal,

on an OTC lad,

and a red one with gold one in 1914 again OTC

[Toby Brayley]

An unknown, but rather dapper, Cavalryman in India. He provides use with a fine study of the Victorian era cross rifles/muskets. I like the ornateness of this version , even including the slings. Also the seldom seen  Crossed Swords badge. The clarity of this CDV when scanned in is superb!

[FROGSMILE]

58 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

An unknown, but rather dapper, Cavalryman in India. He provides use with a fine study of the Victorian era cross rifles/muskets. I like the ornateness of this version , even including the slings. Also the seldom seen  Crossed Swords badge. The clarity of this CDV when scanned in is superb!

 

Fantastic photo that also shows an early pattern of the serge cavalry ‘jumper’ (a type of undress frock with chest pockets only), which replaced the stable jacket.  The crossed Rifles badge, which represents the 3-band Enfield rifle, complete with hammer lock, was used as special identifier for the School of Musketry instructors at Hythe (Kent), as well as for marksmen in the Infantry, Cavalry and Sappers.

Edited 30 January , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Pat Atkins]

That is a great photo. Molkenteller, Hammes & Co apparently had a studio in Poona around 1890 and about the same time acquired one in Sekunderbad; however, they may have had many more across India, though I haven't been able to find out so far. They seem to have morphed into Molkenteller, Maisch & Co in 1894 which might help end-date this postcard.

 

Those crossed swords - is there a way to determine whether this is a skill-at-arms badge, or designates the appointment of PTI? Does the position worn (i.e. left lower sleeve) suggest a particular regiment or regiments? And is the design, without basket hilts, an Indian one? I've seen a similar sword depicted in WW2 unit patches in India, but not sure that helps much really.

 

Apologies for the questions but, like the postcards thread, this one throws up some really interesting points and attracts experts like flies to... ahem, honey. It would be a pity to miss the opportunity.

 

Cheers, Pat.

  

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Pat Atkins said:

That is a great photo. Molkenteller, Hammes & Co apparently had a studio in Poona around 1890 and about the same time acquired one in Sekunderbad; however, they may have had many more across India, though I haven't been able to find out so far. They seem to have morphed into Molkenteller, Maisch & Co in 1894 which might help end-date this postcard.

 

Those crossed swords - is there a way to determine whether this is a skill-at-arms badge, or designates the appointment of PTI? Does the position worn (i.e. left lower sleeve) suggest a particular regiment or regiments? And is the design, without basket hilts, an Indian one? I've seen a similar sword depicted in WW2 unit patches in India, but not sure that helps much really.

 

Apologies for the questions but, like the postcards thread, this one throws up some really interesting points and attracts experts like flies to... ahem, honey. It would be a pity to miss the opportunity.

 

Cheers, Pat.

  

 

 

Pat the position on the left lower sleeve indicates that it is a skill-at-arms badge, just like the rifle muskets.  The swords are of Mameluke type and just like the rifle muskets indicate an earlier style/pattern.

Edited 2 February , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Pat Atkins]

Thanks, Frogsmile - very informative as ever.

 

Pay

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Pat Atkins said:

Thanks, Frogsmile - very informative as ever.

 

Pay

 

Glad to help Pat, I forgot to mention that the badge related to fencing and gymnastics.  There was a regimental HQ 'staff' sergeant (by the late 1890s a sergeant major) who was responsible for training the men.  He was badged regimentally, and not from the Army Gymnastics Staff.

Edited 2 February , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Worn on the left cuff the crossed swords were only for swordsmanship, best among 20 men assessed annually [i.e. there would be 5 badges awarded if 100 were tested].

On the upper right, "fencing and gymnastics" ...... one badge, two uses.

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Worn on the left cuff the crossed swords were only for swordsmanship, best among 20 men assessed annually [i.e. there would be 5 badges awarded if 100 were tested].

On the upper right, "fencing and gymnastics" ...... one badge, two uses.

 

Thank you Muerrisch, it’s good to be reminded of the criteria and dual use of the badge. What a great photo.

[Muerrisch]

28 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Thank you Muerrisch, it’s good to be reminded of the criteria and dual use of the badge. What a great photo.

 

Yes, a remarkably good picture ............ I wonder how long he had to hold the pose?

[Toby Brayley]

And the later crossed swords. 

 

Difficult to distinguish between the 12th and 21st Lancers, but they do look like P.W.O feathers, so I am going with 12th Lancers. Also provides a fine study of the Tartan Cavalry Frock and coloured Peaked Forage Cap.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

And the later crossed swords. 

 

Difficult to distinguish between the 12th and 21st Lancers, but they do look like P.W.O feathers, so I am going with 12th Lancers. Also provides a fine study of the Tartan Cavalry Frock and coloured Peaked Forage Cap.

 

 

 

Once again, this is the same frock that the cavalry referred to when it was first issued as a 'Jumper'.  Winston Churchill specifically mentions it in his earliest autobiography.  It is invariably apparent from the relatively pointed pocket flaps and the fact that it bears just chest pockets and plain skirts, unlike the later version that had scalloped flaps and pockets in the skirt too.

[Toby Brayley]

It is very similar to the "Frock, Tartan, Military Police"  (based on the Cavalry version) Here is a nice study of it in colour. Although this is the later version with

4  pockets. 

 

 

Edited 5 February , 2018 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

It is very similar to the "Frock, Tartan, Military Police"  (based on the Cavalry version) Here is a nice study of it in colour. Although this is the later version with

4  pockets. 

 

 

 

There were several variations in the evolution of this garment, note how the first cavalry (and RFA/RHA) version above had slanted pockets to ease finger ingress and that the collar was much lower than later versions.

[Toby Brayley]

NCOs of the 1st Volunteer Battalion of the Hampshire's.    Nice mix of insignia and a decent study of the VF piped Breeches. 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

NCOs of the 1st Volunteer Battalion of the Hampshire's.    Nice mix of insignia and a decent study of the VF piped Breeches. 

 

They appear to be the company Colour Sergeants, at that time the top men.

[Muerrisch]

Second from left may be a sergeant with 4 point proficiency star ......... it looks different from the crowns.

 

Lovely group. One man has a campaign medal ribbon, perhaps an ex-regular.

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Second from left may be a sergeant with 4 point proficiency star ......... it looks different from the crowns.

 

 

It seemed a little large in proportion to the stripes and titles.

[Muerrisch]

I think I see points N E S W ............ anyway it's only a small matter, and a super photo.

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

I think I see points N E S W ............ anyway it's only a small matter, and a super photo.

 

You might well be right, without the original print and a magnifier it’s hard to tell.