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Remembered Today:

Toby Brayley

Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

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Muerrisch
5 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

A rather young looking Sgt 1st Volunteer Battalion of the R.W FUSILIERS

 

 

Vol.jpg

 

I think he is wearing a scarlet SNCO sash in SD .......... most unusual at that date if so.

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FROGSMILE

Yes, the rule no sash with khaki did not change until 1922.

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Toby Brayley

I have a few pictures of V/TF NCOs wearing them in S.D! 

 

Edited by Toby Brayley

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FROGSMILE
11 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

I have a few pictures of V/TF NCOs wearing them in S.D! 

 

 

That's very interesting and as they had their own regulations for dress, unlike the Militia who were the same (largely) as the Regulars, I do wonder what was stated.

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Toby Brayley

4th  Battalion King’s Own Royal Lancaster Regiment. More of the sash in use on SD, I suspect a peculiar trait of the VF/TF and, as is the case here, Militia! 

 

 

15492220_10154054929381497_7637240200828174431_n.jpg

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FROGSMILE
1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

4th  Battalion King’s Own Royal Lancaster Regiment. More of the sash in use on SD, I suspect a peculiar trait of the VF/TF and, as is the case here, Militia! 

 

 

15492220_10154054929381497_7637240200828174431_n.jpg

 

You have me wondering now about the exact year that the regulation changed.  It had previously been sashes only with scarlets and whites. My understanding was post war and around the same time that attempts were made to smarten up SD with a more tailored fit.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Muerrisch

A thought: Militia, VF, TF and SR all had permanent regular staff attached ....... including "proper" regular SNCOs. Might the sash have been used unofficially as a means of distinguishing one type of sergeant from the other? Yon colour-sergeant looks hard-bitten and lean!

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FROGSMILE
5 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

A thought: Militia, VF, TF and SR all had permanent regular staff attached ....... including "proper" regular SNCOs. Might the sash have been used unofficially as a means of distinguishing one type of sergeant from the other? Yon colour-sergeant looks hard-bitten and lean!

 

As we both know anything is possible and it would be a logical way to distinguish regular PSIs, but for the moment I cannot get past the idea of regulars following the time honoured regulations that discipline entailed and auxiliaries doing their own thing.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Toby Brayley

A cracking new addition to my collection and right up there with my favourites.

 

Royal Artillery c1903. So much going on in this postcard; a mix of all the headdress of the period including both types of Forage Cap (Pill box and Brodrick) and a Slouches, Early SD and a Martini Metford Artillery Carbine.

Of particular interest are an unusual style of cloth shoulder title that are new to me. Usually the cloth titles for the RA were, RFA, RHA or RGA in large font, but these appear to be much larger.

 

" This is my Uncle H sitting with a pipe in his mouth next to the fat mare with a loaf on his knee!"

RA1902.jpg

RA19022.jpg

Edited by Toby Brayley

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Derek Black
2 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

A cracking new addition to my collection and right up there with my favourites.

 

" This is my Uncle H sitting with a pipe in his mouth next to the fat mare with a loaf on his knee!"


You're right, this is a cracker of a photo.
He is a hefty lad, not used to seeing big round lads in WW1 pics too often.

 

Derek.

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FROGSMILE

A superb photo, Toby, I can see why you like it.

 

Good view of the artillery blue frock in two variants, both 5-button, but with two types of cuff knot, Austrian and Trefoil.

 

I suspect that the longer titles are the county designation.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Toby Brayley

A member 1st Battalion of the KSLI, probably transport.  Note the Shoulder Title just reads SHROPSHIRE 

Shropshire 1.jpg

Shropshire 2.jpg

Edited by Toby Brayley

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Toby Brayley

An unknown Volunteer (the 1 V tabs can just be seen).  Nice shot of the early Volunteer red piped breeches. 

32 VOl FS cap.jpg

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Drew-1918

59b2927a1feb3_3rdKRRC.jpg.b6fbb5041d4ce6dfee2e76aab3d4e95a.jpg

3rd Battalion, King's Royal Rifle Corps, Aldershot, 23rd January, 1906. 

 

 

59b292aee38bf_3rdKRRCclose-up.jpg.f43fa20f0b70d074760c11f803fae0a9.jpg

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Mike_H

1st VB Hampshire Regiment , M (Aldershot) Company C 1903

 

File0053.jpg.df8ba346a905a72144deac5a2d9850d9.jpg

Edited by Mike_H

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Mike_H

Better Detail ...........File0054.jpg.48a830a7a8065de2a00766e48040e48e.jpg

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FROGSMILE

Great photo Mike_H.  Notice the battalion QMS seated next to the officers and standing far left a Colour Sergeant Instructor of Musketry.  As battalion 'staff' sergeants they both have gold Russia braid piping on their field service caps to mark their status (they are both Regulars).  It is very likely the battalion shooting team.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Muerrisch

Perhaps worth remarking that, if the Moderators had applied merciless logic to this thread, it would never have existed, as it is "out of period".

 

Very fortunate we are, because this is a gold-mine of information and comment on a rather neglected dozen or so years of history.

 

Nice to see the regular colour-sergeant with his four chevrons. The group might be "The Officers and NCOs" of the company, rather than the shooting team. I think every man has rank/appointment. 

 

NB there are rather a lot of campaign medals on show #140 for a VF unit .......... possibly ex-volunteer contingent in the Boer War?

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FROGSMILE
3 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Perhaps worth remarking that, if the Moderators had applied merciless logic to this thread, it would never have existed, as it is "out of period".

 

Very fortunate we are, because this is a gold-mine of information and comment on a rather neglected dozen or so years of history.

 

Nice to see the regular colour-sergeant with his four chevrons. The group might be "The Officers and NCOs" of the company, rather than the shooting team. I think every man has rank/appointment. 

 

NB there are rather a lot of campaign medals on show #140 for a VF unit .......... possibly ex-volunteer contingent in the Boer War?

 

Yes, they could be the ex-volunteer Boer War contingent, although I would have expected there to be more medal ribbons on show if it were.  The prominent place of rifles in a framed shot that is otherwise relaxed and the wide range of participants (note the mounted infantryman, or cyclist with leather bandolier and chin strap down at rear) leads me to be firm in my belief that this is more likely a sub-unit shooting team, whilst accepting that it is impossible to be sure.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Toby Brayley
4 hours ago, Mike_H said:

1st VB Hampshire Regiment , M (Aldershot) Company C 1903

 

File0053.jpg.df8ba346a905a72144deac5a2d9850d9.jpg

 Just to reiterate the above posts stunning image.   Thank you for sharing! 

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Toby Brayley
3 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Perhaps worth remarking that, if the Moderators had applied merciless logic to this thread, it would never have existed, as it is "out of period".

 

 

And a thank you to the moderators (and all contributors). Hopefully it charts nicely the evolution into the Great War! There certainly is no other discussion like it on the internet! 

Edited by Toby Brayley

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Mike_H

Re 1st VB Hants - I should have added that the photo is part of a larger one of the Officers and NCO's of M Company - the enlarged figure is my grandfather.

 

Mike 

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Toby Brayley

SNCO's of a TF Battalion of the Berkshires taken at Swanage , Dorset.  Some nice NCO insignia on display including the 4 pointed Proficient Sergeant Star and Sergeant Instructor of Musketry with his 4 chevrons and crossed rifles.  Note the mix of crowns as late as 1908.  I am struggling to identify the badge beneath the Instructor of Gymnastics badge can any one help? 

Berks TF NCOs.jpg

Berks TF NCOs2.jpg

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Muerrisch

Crossed bugles ...... some units with Rifles connections or ancestry used them for colour sergeants.

Also the x swords.

Edited by Muerrisch

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FROGSMILE

Grumpy is bang on of course.  VB and TF Battalions, as former Rifle Volunteers often retained special, rifle regiment patterns of full dress colour sergeant badge, comprising crown, crossed swords and twin bugles, all on one patch of cloth.  These were inevitably discontinued when the Battalions were restructured from the 8-Company to 4-Company organisation.  As such it is quite a rare photo with a good view of the badge.  The badge was not worn on undress uniform and so is only rarely seen.  Examples in traditional Rifle colours of green and grey turn up in auctions but I have never yet seen a coloured version as used by the scarlet clad units such as that in your photo.  It's interesting too that there are three variations of full dress tunic shown, with the Musketry Instructor's cuff still decorated with an Austrian knot and a line of braid at the base of the collar marking his status as battalion staff.  Sat next to him is another regular on the staff (both have campaign medals) and three of the volunteer SNCOs have the Volunteer Service medal marking them out as having long service.

 

There is a certain irony that these colour sergeant badges were for units with no colours!

 

post-657-1133894304 (1).jpg

post-657-1133893726.jpg

Internet Image 1.jpg

A_G_Bell_Singapore_Vol_Rifles.png

 

Edited by FROGSMILE

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