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Remembered Today:

Royal Air Force marked bayonets


trajan

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On 22/11/2019 at 10:53, MikeyH said:

Just spotted on an online dealers website,

markings not clear due to corrosion but looks like:-

R.A.F.

1B

4594

on a P1907 dated Jan. 1915.

 

Mike.

 

Mike,

 

Do you happen to know the maker of this bayonet?

You did also post the 1.E 4594 of which Nigel has just put up photos.

Is there any chance that the 1.B 4594 and 1.E 4594 are one and the same bayonet?

 

Regards,

JMB

 

 

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2 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Mike,

 

Do you happen to know the maker of this bayonet?

You did also post the 1.E 4594 of which Nigel has just put up photos.

Is there any chance that the 1.B 4594 and 1.E 4594 are one and the same bayonet?

 

Regards,

JMB

 

 

 

JMB,

It could be one and the same, going off the date.

Am unable to recall which dealers site I saw it 

on.  Sorry to be vague, I did not note the maker

at the time.  Will keep my eyes peeled in future!

Mike.

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  • 3 weeks later...

One of the RAF-marked Patt. 1907 bayonets that we have recorded is RAF / 1. A.L. / 5415.

 

I have initially tried to get at the meaning of this abbreviation by assuming that A.L. represents an organization or a place.

If A = Air; Aerial; Aircraft; Aeroplane; Airfield; Army; Asia; Atlantic; Adastral etc,

   L = London; Loading; Landing; Liaison; Location etc,

no reasonable A.L. appears possible.

 

Can anybody suggest plausible alternatives for A. & L.?

Can anybody suggest plausible alternatives for an organization or a place?

 

Regards,

JMB

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After some more consideration of the A. L. conundrum, I believe that this possibly refers to the Arab Legion.

Supporting evidence for this could be, 

(1) the A. L. was formed in 1923, was financed by the British Govt., and was led by British Army officers; it would certainly have been armed (initially) with the SMLE, No. 1 Mk.III.

(2) by the time of the Arab-Israeli War of 1948, the A. L. had grown to about 6,000 men; the serial #5415 that is recorded is consistent with this.

(3) the observation of just a single bayonet marked with A. L. may be due to the geophysical location of this unit relative to the U. K.

 

At the moment, I don't know when (or even if) the A. L. was re-equipped with the LE No.4 Mk.1 or Mk.2.

Any and all comments are welcomed.

[EDIT: I am aware of the possible difficulty of finding an RAF link with the A.L.; do not know if sold-out-of-service marks exist on the bayonet.]

Regards,

JMB

Edited by JMB1943
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Hi JMB,

 

Been off for a long while (since 18th July!) with work and other things. Thanks for keeping the home fires burning and I know I owe you an email...

 

First thoughts - unlikely to be Arab Legion, but who knows?!

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  • 4 weeks later...
15 hours ago, N White said:

New one seen on ebay, RAF 1D 3605.  At least, I think it is new.

 

Of interest perhaps, it is a 2 18 Pall Mall marked Wilkinson.

 

Unsold at $89.  Seller's pics did no favors.

(Auction ended)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124300379461

Thanks for keeping your eyes open.

PALL MALL seems to have been added from mid-1916 onwards, and for some bizarre reason was then always almost completely erased.

 

Regards,

JMB

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On 23/08/2020 at 18:37, JMB1943 said:

Thanks for keeping your eyes open.

PALL MALL seems to have been added from mid-1916 onwards, and for some bizarre reason was then always almost completely erased.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

Excellent!

 

JMB, I have been out of town researching and filming a couple of documentaries, and will email you later today.

 

Julian

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  • 2 months later...

Gents,

 

A chromed example has just popped up in this thread here....

Regards to all,

 

Dave.

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Dave,

 

Yes, it is an interesting one!

Do you have any thoughts about the coronation business?

 

Regards,

JMB

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1 hour ago, JMB1943 said:

Dave,

 

Yes, it is an interesting one!

Do you have any thoughts about the coronation business?

 

Regards,

JMB

Hello JMB, 

That coronation business also got me thinking, I did wonder....if it wasn’t the queens, then either Edwards or George VI  may be a bit more plausible as it would have been the weapon of the day so to speak.

 

Dave.

 

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Dave,

 

That is a good point, but I had taken the OP at his word that it was the Queen’s coronation.

Would like to talk to the friend whose uncle had passed on the story.

Also, this is just one of ‘twelve that were handed in to the arsenal in Birmingham ‘—-that does tend to sway my thinking!

 

Regards,

JMB

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9 minutes ago, JMB1943 said:

Dave,

 

That is a good point, but I had taken the OP at his word that it was the Queen’s coronation.

Would like to talk to the friend whose uncle had passed on the story.

Also, this is just one of ‘twelve that were handed in to the arsenal in Birmingham ‘—-that does tend to sway my thinking!

 

Regards,

JMB

It’s a nice piece with a fascinating history, and like you I have no reason not to take the OP at his word.....with luck there may be some clarification to this interesting story one way or the other😀.

 

Stay safe,

 

Dave.

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On 21/02/2020 at 14:08, JMB1943 said:

Soldier,

 

Which is the one that is tied to the RAF Regiment?

 

Regards,

JMB

Hi JMB,

Just noticed this question having been off for a while.

The only RAR linked bayonet seems to be 749, the only one with the "RAF Regt" stamped in the grips, do you agree or has another been found with these markings?

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Hello Soldier,

 

Yes, it is the only one that has the "RAF REGT" stamp on the grip----sorry for being a bit slow on  the uptake!!

Trajan and I have long been puzzled by this one.

One could easily say that it was a general RAF issue to start with, and was then transferred specifically to the RAF Regt.

However, said RAF Regt was not formed until 1942, at which time the LE rifle No. 4 Mk I was the standard military issue; this rifle did not mount the Patt. 1907 bayonet.

But if the initial production of the No.4 only allowed full issue to the Army and partial issue at first to the RAF, then maybe there were still SMLE rifles held by the RAF.

That is also the question with the chrome-plated Patt. 07 used in the 1953 Coronation that Dave66 referred to 5/6 posts back.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

 

 

 

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Cheers Julian,

Its interesting that no remaining bayonets have markings on grips considering all the soldering needing a bayonet was on the flight or ground crew but mostly the regiment.

 

On the chrome bayonet, parade bayonets are always chromed like the frogs, belts and naval gaters are white for special events. What makes you link this one to a coronation when there would always be chromed examples in the armory for any special event. I have personally used chromed no9 at passing out parades on a No4/2.  

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14 hours ago, Soldier28 said:

Cheers Julian,

Its interesting that no remaining bayonets have markings on grips considering all the soldering needing a bayonet was on the flight or ground crew but mostly the regiment.

 

On the chrome bayonet, parade bayonets are always chromed like the frogs, belts and naval gaters are white for special events. What makes you link this one to a coronation when there would always be chromed examples in the armory for any special event. I have personally used chromed no9 at passing out parades on a No4/2.  

Soldier,

 

The "Coronation" info comes from the thread that Dave66 refers to.

I'm interested that you have used a chromed bayonet for passing out parades etc.

How many chromed would be held in the armoury?

How many bayonets would be present at a passing out parade?

How many of these would be chromed?

 

Regards,

JMB

Edited by JMB1943
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13 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Soldier,

 

The "Coronation" info comes from the thread that Dave66 refers to.

I'm interested that you have used a chromed bayonet for passing out parades etc.

How many chromed would be held in the armoury?

How many bayonets would be present at a passing out parade?

How many of these would be chromed?

 

Regards,

JMB

Julian,

Chromed are rare make no mistake and very very few armories would have them.

The ones I used or ever saw at special events would mainly be linked to a colour party, front facing unit or similar only. Its like family silver, if you have it, you use it I suppose. I don't think I ever saw myself more than 10 in one place and that was many years ago!

Hope this helps.

 

Regards

Soldier

Just now, Soldier28 said:

Julian,

Chromed are rare make no mistake and very very few armories would have them.

The ones I used or ever saw at special events would mainly be linked to a colour party, front facing unit or similar only. Its like family silver, if you have it, you use it I suppose. I don't think I ever saw myself more than 10 in one place and that was many years ago!

Hope this helps.

 

Regards

Soldier

Just for clarity on this thread, these chromed ones were not RAF

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Soldier,

 

Thanks for the reply about the numbers of these chromed Bayonets.

Just for the record, I am JMB1943, not Julian.

Julian = Trajan, and we have been collaborating on the RAF- marked bayonet topic.

While we are here, do you know whether any stock of SMLE No. 1 Mk III rifles were held in armouries to use with the Patt. 07 chromed bayonets, even after the No. 4 rifle had become the official military issue in the UK?

 

Regards,

JMB

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Sorry JMB for mixing you up.

Can't really say on keeping rifles for that reason, I sincerely doubt it and never experienced it.

Home regiment armouries may have kept a very limited number of SMLE for training/historical purposes but change overs of any small arms alway purged stocks out of service, first in reserve and then out the door.

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Soldier,

 

Thanks again for the info.

 

Regards,

JMB

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Continuing the P1907 plated theme, spotted on a U.K. dealers website a chrome plated parade bayonet marked:-

R.A.F.   1F-1113

The bayonet is a Sanderson dated December 1918.

 

Mike.

Edited by MikeyH
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Mikey, Mikey, Mikey,

 

Just call you hawkeye----another brand new one for us and very gratefully received!

 

Regards,

JMB

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13 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Mikey, Mikey, Mikey,

 

Just call you hawkeye----another brand new one for us and very gratefully received!

 

Regards,

JMB

JMB,

Browsing the 'sold' section of the same dealer reveals another 'new' bayonet marked:-

B52  R.A.F. 1C5398

This also chromed, made by Wilkinson date 11 18 with a 1922 re-issue stamp.

 

Mike aka hawkeye!

 

Edited by MikeyH
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Hawkeye Mike,

 

Are we going to have to send the local constabulary over to inspect your shed at the bottom of the garden?

Yes, another new one AND with all of the details.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

 

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