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trajan

Royal Air Force marked bayonets

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JMB1943

Another two RAF-marked P.07's, but with previously unrecorded markings; I'll post them separately to avoid confusion.

 

The first is a 2 '19 WILK, with first issue to 1.A. 0371 on the curved underside of the pommel; this has been lined through, with a subsequent stamp of 1. 6719 applied in the usual location.

The pommel is also marked " 1 over S D over 4 ( 21 ??)" with an additional Runic-appearing symbol to left hand side of that (sold-out-of-service?).

Does S.D. = Supply Depot?

Currently having trouble with photos.

MndCty-RAF-3.jpg.6ea9909c8a9aadcaf4550b41e3f16b8b.jpgMndCty-RAF-4.jpg.acbac94df583968c746bae72f4ae9189.jpg

Regards,

JMB

Edited by JMB1943

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JMB1943

The second unusually marked is date unknown, WILK stamped "1 over SD over 5    21", together with the Runic-type symbol.

Unit Marked 1.C. 9798, and neither of these two bayonets is in the well-polished condition that usually is found for RAF-bayonets.rosie-RAF-3.jpg.f09d3164b80fb1e03fc597cbe96884dd.jpg

 

Regards,

JMB

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Dave66

Supply depot would be a logical choice, added to stores April and May 21?

Havind a look back, in post 7 there's a scabbard nicely stamped s.d. 11 20.

Nice to see working examples, as opposed to polished parade ones.

 

Dave.

 

 

 

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JMB1943

Dave,

 

Thank you for bringing that to the forefront again, had totally forgotten it.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

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Dave66
2 minutes ago, JMB1943 said:

Dave,

 

Thank you for bringing that to the forefront again, had totally forgotten it.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

JMB,

There were a number of stores depots in that era....so may be that instead of supply.

Good luck with the research.

 

Dave.

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JMB1943

Dave,

 

I think also that Stores Depot is more apropos to the era; e.g., The 1929 Manual of Small Arms talks about both bayonet & SMLE as being “...packed and passed into store.”

 

Regards,

JMB

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Dave66

Nothing on the box, so had a mooch through this http://www.wdmilitaria.co.uk/shop.php 1907 used as a keyword (9 pages of results)

appologies if already recorded.

 

1B 7448.....code 21350

1E 1787.....code 18232

1E 4033.....code 21451

 

Dave.

 

 

 

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JMB1943
1 hour ago, Dave66 said:

Nothing on the box, so had a mooch through this http://www.wdmilitaria.co.uk/shop.php 1907 used as a keyword (9 pages of results)

appologies if already recorded.

 

1B 7448.....code 21350

1E 1787.....code 18232

1E 4033.....code 21451

 

Dave.

 

 

 

Well Dave, your mooching was very productive because those three are all new to me.

Interesting that all three are SANDERSON Bayonets.

For the third, would you agree with W(?)126 on pommel, and re-inspection date of ‘20 or ‘30?

 

Regards,

JMB

edit: I know that I speak for Trajan when I thank you and all those others who are contributing to this topic.

It’s nice to think of it as a group effort, and the results are very encouraging.

Edited by JMB1943

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Dave66

I presumed a poorly struck W on the pommel making W126, and looking at the curvature of the inspection stamp my guess would be 20, but can't be 100 percent.

I Liked the brown scabbard on that one....couple of screenshots below.

 

Dave.

image.png

image.png

Edited by Dave66

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trajan
On 27/03/2019 at 22:10, trench whistle said:

What is the going rate for an RAF marked 1907? I have been thinking of adding one to my RAF collection but not being a bayonet collector have no clue as to what they should go for.

 

22 hours ago, Dave66 said:

If in the u.k. I would recomed going to a specific militaria fair where you will find numerous dealers, it will give you a good indication as to value and varying prices.

To put things into context, I have been after one of the scarcer manufactured bayonets, a Vickers, in good condition for some time, and the last fair I went to found one for £140 which was a fair price.

 

Dave.

 

The RAF/ 1. E/ 1016 example with RAF scabbard that I bought in Oxford about four years back from an expensive antique shop (well, Oxford!) I maaged to have reduced from GBP 100 to GBP 90.

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trajan
16 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

... The first is a 2 '19 WILK, with first issue to 1.A. 0371 on the curved underside of the pommel; this has been lined through, with a subsequent stamp of 1. 6719 applied in the usual location.

The pommel is also marked " 1 over S D over 4 ( 21 ??)" with an additional Runic-appearing symbol to left hand side of that (sold-out-of-service?).

Does S.D. = Supply Depot?

MndCty-RAF-3.jpg.6ea9909c8a9aadcaf4550b41e3f16b8b.jpgMndCty-RAF-4.jpg.acbac94df583968c746bae72f4ae9189.jpg

Regards,

JMB

 

I think this is the first example of a re-numbered and so presumably re-issued RAF one isn't it JMB? I reckon re-issued as the prefix and numbers don't match.  NO idea as to that strange 'Out of service' type mark'...

 

15 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

The second unusually marked is date unknown, WILK stamped "1 over SD over 5    21", together with the Runic-type symbol.

Unit Marked 1.C. 9798, and neither of these two bayonets is in the well-polished condition that usually is found for RAF-bayonets.rosie-RAF-3.jpg.f09d3164b80fb1e03fc597cbe96884dd.jpg

 

 

Perhaps the 'rune' is a cancellation of the 'Sold out of Service'? On analogy with the P.1907's that went down under, all marked 'Sold out of Service', perhaps this means 'Sold out of [Army] service' but that struck through to indicate recommissioned for another military branch?

 

 

15 hours ago, Dave66 said:

Supply depot would be a logical choice, added to stores April and May 21?

Havind a look back, in post 7 there's a scabbard nicely stamped s.d. 11 20.

Nice to see working examples, as opposed to polished parade ones.

 

Thanks for reminding me also Dave - until JMB's post above I really hadn't thought very much about that scabbard marking on my example at post no. 7! It is very clearly a Roman 'II' on that one, but perhaps having just used it for the 'I S D' they simply repeated the same 'I' stamp for an '11'?

 

This is a very exciting development in its own way, as if these are dates, then (relax MODS!) they fit securely into the early interwar period. Yes, of course IF...

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trajan
12 hours ago, Dave66 said:

Nothing on the box, so had a mooch through this http://www.wdmilitaria.co.uk/shop.php 1907 used as a keyword (9 pages of results)

appologies if already recorded.

 

1B 7448.....code 21350

1E 1787.....code 18232

1E 4033.....code 21451

 

 

11 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Well Dave, your mooching was very productive because those three are all new to me.

Interesting that all three are SANDERSON Bayonets.

For the third, would you agree with W(?)126 on pommel, and re-inspection date of ‘20 or ‘30?

 

Regards,

JMB

edit: I know that I speak for Trajan when I thank you and all those others who are contributing to this topic.

It’s nice to think of it as a group effort, and the results are very encouraging.

 

Yes indeed, many thanks Dave and all others who have contributed to this thread, and helped get all these marks on record.

 

I suspect that there is a slight chance the 'S.D.' marks might get us past the 'We don't know where we are going but we are going there' stage to the 'We don't where we are going but we are getting there' point!

 

Best wishes and thanks to one and all,

 

Julian 

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Dave66

If the S.D. 21 marks are correct for 1921, and not struck through...the struck through marks under the pommel could be where the r.a.f. initially stamped them in 18/19, then moving to the more common place that we are used to on the outside of the pommel....just a theory!

And yes, I agree with the theory that the "rune" is a cancelled sold out of service stamp...makes perfect sense.

 

I wonder, with demobilisation and a shrinking of the services in the early twenties, how many went back into stores.

 

Dave.

 

 

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trajan

Thanks Dave.

In an idle momment (it happens on Friday afternoons!) I googled "RAF supply depots" and found references in The Birth of the Royal Air Force by Ian Philpott on this matter, specifically mentioning ASC supply depots passing on equipment to the RAF - see, e.g., https://books.google.com.tr/books?id=mcw7BAAAQBAJ&pg=PA316&lpg=PA316&dq=royal+air+force+supply+depots&source=bl&ots=72rzTdb1GO&sig=ACfU3U19zZdsqgkNpyqRgUsaamdRCsOZ5Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiN6vf1r6fhAhWCmLQKHekCCzQQ6AEwA3oECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=supply depots&f=false

 

I honestly don't have time to follow up these and other possible sources - have to get another archaeology article finished by the end of the April (a Moldavian castle in what is now the Ukraine that became a major Ottoman fortress if you are interested!). BUT, many thanks for all suggestions and information!

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JMB1943

A quick perusal of the link given above by Trajan shows explicit nomenclature,

ASC Supply Depots & Ordnance Store Depots.

So, perhaps one can have one's cake and eat it too in this instance.

 

Regards,

JMB

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trajan

Just thought I would remind one and all of these threads:

 

 http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?279557-Lee-Enfield-P14-question&highlight=raf-marked

 

 http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?265139-RAF-Marked-P-14 

 

So far no P.1913 bayonets marked RAF...

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JMB1943
9 hours ago, trajan said:

Just thought I would remind one and all of these threads:

 

 http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?279557-Lee-Enfield-P14-question&highlight=raf-marked

 

 http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?265139-RAF-Marked-P-14 

 

So far no P.1913 bayonets marked RAF...

 

This made me look into RAF-marked SMLE rifles, and could find only ONE for sale.

Stock disc showed: 32  HQ  WAD   RAF  1  40 (RAF Waddington, Lincs; issued Jan. 1940; 32 Sqdn RAF Regt. or rack number ?).

Pathe News does have a video of Queen's Birthday parade at RAF Uxbridge in 1952; airmen in the Honour Guard are clearly wielding SMLE, No. 1 Mk III rifles with the P.1907 bayonets.

Possibly also some units with the P.14 rifle, but I need to rewatch several times to be sure.

This does not get us any further forward, but the precision marching was pleasant to see.

 

Regards,

JMB

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trajan
10 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

...This does not get us any further forward, but the precision marching was pleasant to see.

 

Maybe it does in a way. These are Royal Air Force issue, and not Royal Air Force Regiment?

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JMB1943

Trajan,

 

Just heard the verbal introduction of the Pathe News which gives the RAF men as derived from the technical training schools; so, as you say, just RAF not RAF Regt!

So, the P.1907’s probably date from the 1920’s onwards when the RAF was policing large areas of the Middle East.

That does tie in with the re-inspection and re-issue stamps of early 20’s that you had previously noted.

I have just been musing over the existing relative numbers of P.07’s (40-odd that I have recorded) from 10,000 sent to Siam by BSA in 1920, and the almost 50 of these RAF Bayonets recorded of the possibly 80,000 that were issued; so roughly 1:1 still around.

We might expect the number of RAF Bayonets to eventually eclipse the Siam Bayonets, if equal survival rates can be assumed.

 

Regards,

JMB

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trajan

Another one from Turkey... 1.5806. Just spotted it so no tme to comment as university classes beckon...

1.5806 murat 01.jpg

1.5806 murat 02.jpg

1.5806 murat 03.jpg

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Dave66
3 hours ago, trajan said:

Another one from Turkey... 1.5806. Just spotted it so no tme to comment as university classes beckon...

1.5806 murat 01.jpg

1.5806 murat 02.jpg

1.5806 murat 03.jpg

Very interesting , haven't seen and blade markings being cancelled and altered like that before, including the reverse broad arrow on the blade itself.

 

Dave.

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trajan

They are indeed odd cancellation stamps! It crossed my mind that the one on the reverse might actiually be so strange 're-issue' mark for 1944... I have contacted the owner to see if it is for sale or not, even though I DON'T collect P.1907's, it is interesting!

Edited by trajan

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Andrew Upton
6 hours ago, trajan said:

Another one from Turkey... 1.5806. Just spotted it so no tme to comment as university classes beckon...

 

 

1.5806 murat 03.jpg

 

It also appears to be another nice example of a very late dated blade compared to apparent production date, eg what seems to be January 1912 with the cypher of Edward VII (died May 1910).

 

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trajan
13 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

It also appears to be another nice example of a very late dated blade compared to apparent production date, eg what seems to be January 1912 with the cypher of Edward VII (died May 1910).

 

 

Oh well-spotted! Thinks: how nice it would be not to have to prepare my last class for the day and look at pointy things instead...

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JMB1943

Trajan,

 

An unusually marked P.07 indeed.

I don’t think that there is a “44” re-inspection date, because 1) there is no apostrophe before the 44, 2) the 44 is followed by a 3 in the same font, and 3) there does not appear to be a fourth inspection stamp which would be required for a re-issue in 1944.

To me, this represents a serial number “443”.

 

Regards,

JMB

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