Kings Shropshire Light Infantry

[Dawley Jockey]

Hi Dave

Like you I could not find a Albert Thomas or evan Albert who went overseas with K.S.L.I. Also looked at Thomas but they all looked unlikely.

16349 Cpl. Owen, Herbert John, resided at 4 Kempton, Clunbury, according to Absent Voters, and

201324 Pte. Owen, Herbert, resided at Llyndy Cottage, Llanyblodwell Nr. Oswestry according to Absent Voters. So not so sure it's either of them.

How sure are they that he served in K.S.L.I., I do not think none of the K.S.L.I. battalions return to Malta area after the war, all the service ones were disbanded. The 1st returned to UK in April and moved to Aden in Nov. 1919, then Bombay. The 2nd return to UK in July 1919, and from then to 1922 it was in Ireland. And I would guess that the 1/4th would turn to it roll of as UK based unit. The 3rd Batt. was also UK based unit.

Annette

Thank you for your reply Annette, It looks like I will have to widen my search across the forum and also see if the family have a photo which might give me a bit of a clue to the regt

Dave

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Narnie

As you mention in your first post, your great uncle's name is on the Thiepval Memorial, which means sadly he as no known grave.

Here are brief detail's of 1/4th K.S.L.I. for March 1918

7th—21st March billets in Beaulencourt. Working parties digging new trenches.

21st March German launch Big attack on 50 mile front Oise to Arras. The Battalion move forward, “A” Coy to Sugar factory on the Bapaume-Cambrai road near Lebucquiere, the rest dig in at Gaika Copse, Le Velu, in support of 57th & 58th Brigades. 11.30 p.m. “A” Coy withdrawn to Fremicourt Wood.

Midnight 22nd/23rd move to Lebucquiere in support of front line, including “A” Coy.

23rd Retire to Green Line then to Bancourt in support of Green Line.

24th 5 p.m. retired to S-E outskirts of Bapaume

25th By 8 a.m. taken up a line on the Bapaume —Albert road. By 3 p.m. retired to new line W of Miraumont.

26th early hours withdraw to Hebuterne and look for billets. Battalion very weak, only numbered about 50, whole of 56th Brigade to which 1/4th K.S.L.I. belonged, only numbered 250 men. Germans enter Hebuterne, 56th Brigade fix bayonets and double down main street towards the Germans. The K.S.L.I. Covered by rest of Brigade, charged the Germans who legged it. Brigade relieved at 10 p.m.

Annette

[Cardi]

Hi,

I have recently learnt that my grandfather John Price Charles James (born 31.05.1897- died 17.02.1944) from Talsarn, Tregaron in Cardiganshire was a member of the 6th KSLI. From his medal certificate on Ancestry I have his regimental number 27900. It appears that he transfered from the Cheshire Regiment (Reg No 66958). But there is no date as to when this happened.

Although Charlie had eleven children no one seems to know (or possibly remember given that they are all 70+) when or where he enlisted or when he returned home after the war. I understand from one uncle that he returned his medals. Given that he died before I was born I did not know him and it is only in recent months (as a result of showing some photos of the Somme battlefields) that I have learnt from my father that Charlie had served in WW1. Clearly it was not something the family discussed. I suspect that this was true of a great many families.

I have read through the battalion's war diary and have a copy of Annette's excellent history but what I am trying to ascertain from his number is:

- when did he enlist?

- whether he was one of the draft of Cheshire Regiment that joined the 6th in early October 1916 or whether he was one of the draft of 486 young soldiers who joined in April 1918?

- whether it would be possible to identify his company?

Charlie would have been 18 in May of 1915 and as yet I have not had the opportunity to research the local paper (Cambrian News, the Welshman etc.) for any news of enlistments / returns. However I see from the roll of NCOs and men that a Pte. H J Morgan is buried in Tregaron churchyard. He and my grandfather would have been roughly the same age and would have lived near to one another.

I would be grateful if someone could point me in the right direction re additional research or information.

Many thanks,

Vince

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Vince

Nice to see you have a copy of my book. Going by the records of other men near his K.S.L.I. number, I can tell you that Charlie joined the 6th Battalion on 07-04-18, having transferred from the Cheshires to the Shropshires the day before. He is likely to have landed in France/Flanders on or about 01-04-18. I do not know where or when he enlisted but 67068 62nd + 52nd T.R. Batt. (Ches. Regt.) was called up on 01-04-1917.

Annette

[Cardi]

Annette,

Thanks very much for the reply. It puts things into context for me. I'll contact the Cheshires to try and get some additional info regarding enlistment etc.

Would I be correct in thinking that the 62nd + 52nd had previously had a Welsh connection?

Regards

Vince

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Vince

I do not know much about T.R. Battalions so can't say, the 62nd & 52nd are not the only T.R. Battalions that this batch of men trained with. I do not have a full picture because I only have a small handful of service papers from this number range (27820 - 28276), other T.R. Batt.'s were 74th, 51st & 61st.

Annette

[Monty Stubble]

Hi Chris

Yes it's very likely that he joined The 3rd Battalion, which had moved to Queenstown Harbour, Ireland in December 1917, and after as short stay here (Regimental History does not say how long) it moved to Fermoy, where it continued training new drafts and returning wounded and sick soldiers back to full fitness.

Annette

Hello Annette,

I am going to go to Kew and look at the Medal Rolls for my Grandfather (Private Reginald Powell Francis 32750). Any advice you can give me re. this would be gratefully received. How are they arranged?

Any other names I pick up along the way I will pass on to you as you said you haven't got as far as his number.

Many thanks for all the tips and pointers you've given me so far.

Chris

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Chris

He will be in Victory/British rolls, I did have the list of NA refs for each roll but can not remember where they are. I do have volume number for the rolls I have looked at and can tell you that he should be on one of the rolls between 1474 & 1484. Roll 1474 contains Regimental numbers between 27088 & 28412, while roll 1484 contain numbers between 200001 & 200??? (not finished). Roll 1488 contains missorts, so if you can find him he may be in that one. I think I looked up the K.S.L.I. medal rolls references on Kew's website + I was able to prebook the rolls before I made my visits to Kew. Your will need a readers card which I think I also did not online but I suggust you make a post asking if this is correct as I have not been to Kew for a few years so not sure.

Annette

[Monty Stubble]

Many thanks for your help Annette. Kew do not make things easy for the casual enquirer.

I now have the records for my Grandfather which helps me to piece together his military career along with his friend Albert Onions.

Following the records and the regimental history leads me to think he was, as the family story has it, gassed in July. Unfortunately, again according to the regimental history, the only members of the 5th Battalion gassed in July 1917 were victims of 'friendly fire'! Perhaps he was one of those.

After hospitalisation in France, he was then returned to the Reserve battalion, eventually ending up at Fermoy where they didn't go until December 1917. He was then sent back to the front and the 7th Battalion in Spring 1918 with whom he stayed until the end.

He was, as you predicted found in Roll 1480.

I have finally found his brothers, they were not, as family tradition has it, in the KSLI.

One was in the Hereford Regiment, the other two were in the Royal Welch Fusiliers.

I have other bits of information about him if you want me to post it.

Chris

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Chris

Great you found which Battalion he served in. The gassing incident took place on 25th May 1917 not July, the Regimental History is not clear with dates (that was one of the reasons I started to research the Shropshire in more depth) one of the 5th Battalion lads gassed that day died and is buried in Warlincourt Halte British Cemetery, Saulty (XI.B.4).

Where in Herefordshire did your Grandfather come from.

Annette

[Monty Stubble]

Hi Chris

Great you found which Battalion he served in. The gassing incident took place on 25th May 1917 not July, the Regimental History is not clear with dates (that was one of the reasons I started to research the Shropshire in more depth) one of the 5th Battalion lads gassed that day died and is buried in Warlincourt Halte British Cemetery, Saulty (XI.B.4).

Where in Herefordshire did your Grandfather come from.

Annette

He came from St. Margarets, right in the far reaches of the county, almost in Monmouthshire.

He has 2 entries for the 5th and two for the 7th, with of course Infantry Base depot in between.

My mother tells a story of how he had to find his own way from Fishguard to the South Coast, on his way from Ireland to the Front but was arrested and imprisoned in Brecon as he was unable to prove (he had lost his paperwork) what he was up to. He was released after a couple of days when his story caught up with him. Would this be possible? Surely each draft would travel as a group.

I am taking my parents to Northern France this summer (they have never been abroad before) to have a look at the area. The cemetery will definitely be on the list.

Chris

[von Smallhausen]

Hello Annette,

I am making a study about the last days in WWI on the front of the Second and Fifth Armies. I noticed the 10/ KSLI ( 74 Yeo Div.,231 Bde) was involved in these events. I was wondering if you have information about the 8/9/10 and 11 November 1918. It would help me a lot.

With kind regards and thanks from Flanders,

Jef

[6th Shropshires]

Thanks Chris for info on where he came from.

"He has 2 entries for the 5th and two for the 7th, with of course Infantry Base depot in between."

Interesting, I think this means he rejoined the 5th Battalion after recovering from being gassed, and this would have had to have been before 3rd Fed. 1918, as the 5th Batt. was disbanded on this day. I am 98% sure this would have been when your Grandfather joined the 7th Batt. "B" Company of the 5th Batt. were sent to the 7th Batt.

"My mother tells a story of how he had to find his own way from Fishguard to the South Coast, on his way from Ireland to the Front but was arrested and imprisoned in Brecon as he was unable to prove (he had lost his paperwork) what he was up to. He was released after a couple of days when his story caught up with him. Would this be possible? Surely each draft would travel as a group."

I would have thought that drafts bound for France would have travelled together. It could be that the tail as got mixed up a little with time. Possibly when travelling to or from home on leave this may have took place ?

"I am taking my parents to Northern France this summer (they have never been abroad before) to have a look at the area. The cemetery will definitely be on the list."

If I can find the time I will try and give you a list of places (battlefields), where I think your grandfather may have been.

Annette

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Jef

I do not have the 10th K.S.L.I. war diary, I only have what the Regimental records, which is not a lot.

It records that The Battalion returned to the trenches at Marquain on the 30th October 1918. It goes on to record that on the 9th November the battalion drove the retreating enemy out of Tournai. The 10th K.S.L.I. being the first across the river,and thus captured the town. At nightfall on the 9th the battalion moved to Marais, and on the 10th to Basdoux, thence via Ostiches to Mainvault, which was reached on the 17th Nov. (The Battalion was in Ostiches on 11th Nov.)

According to Soldiers Died and C.W.G.C. the last man the 10/K.S.L.I. lost in Action was on the 5th November, 1918 but two are recorded as Died in the area you are intested in, one died on the 9th and the other died on 11th Nov.

I also have the Official History, and will look up if the 10/K.S.L.I. get a mention for the 8th-11th November, but this will have to wait until tomorrow, as it's gone 11pm here and I need some shut eye

Annette

[von Smallhausen]

Hi Jef

I do not have the 10th K.S.L.I. war diary, I only have what the Regimental records, which is not a lot.

It records that The Battalion returned to the trenches at Marquain on the 30th October 1918. It goes on to record that on the 9th November the battalion drove the retreating enemy out of Tournai. The 10th K.S.L.I. being the first across the river,and thus captured the town. At nightfall on the 9th the battalion moved to Marais, and on the 10th to Basdoux, thence via Ostiches to Mainvault, which was reached on the 17th Nov. (The Battalion was in Ostiches on 11th Nov.)

According to Soldiers Died and C.W.G.C. the last man the 10/K.S.L.I. lost in Action was on the 5th November, 1918 but two are recorded as Died in the area you are intested in, one died on the 9th and the other died on 11th Nov.

I also have the Official History, and will look up if the 10/K.S.L.I. get a mention for the 8th-11th November, but this will have to wait until tomorrow, as it's gone 11pm here and I need some shut eye

Annette

Thank you Annette, every information is most welcome,

Jef

[Monty Stubble]

If I can find the time I will try and give you a list of places (battlefields), where I think your grandfather may have been.

Annette

Thank you Annette - that would be so useful.

Chris

[Myrtle]

Chris

Please let me know the name of your relative who was with the Herefordshire Regiment. I am compiling a database for the Herefords.

[Monty Stubble]

Chris

Please let me know the name of your relative who was with the Herefordshire Regiment. I am compiling a database for the Herefords.

Private Edward Francis 1242 (later renumbered 235163)

1st. Herefords

All I know about him was that he fought at Gallipoli and survived the war.

Chris

[Myrtle]

Thanks Chris

I didn't have Edward Francis on my database. Do you have any information regarding where he lived and occupation, prior to the war ?

[Monty Stubble]

Thanks Chris

I didn't have Edward Francis on my database. Do you have any information regarding where he lived and occupation, prior to the war ?

Edward Trefusis Francis (great middle name?) was born in September 1894 at Crossways Farm, St. Margarets.

My understanding is that pre-war he worked as a Farm Labourer and Tree Feller. Also he had a fine singing voice and was much in demand at parties, etc. All this is from family recollection (my mother, who knew him in the 1940's). A look at the 1911 census might prove otherwise but I have no access.

Chris

[David_Underdown]

Trefusis looks like it might be his mother's maiden name, or perhaps further back in the family.

[Myrtle]

Chris

Thank you for the information on Edward Francis.

I will send you an email so as not to impose on Annette's thread, although, there are strong links between these two regiments.

[6th Shropshires]

not to impose on Annete's thread

Hey Myrtle I am not worried, impose all you want, like you say strong links between these two regiments. Chris, Edward Francis may well have been attached to the K.S.L.I. at some point, many Hereford Regt. lads were attached or came under the 4th Reserve Battalion at the end of the war(on paper at least).

Annette

[Myrtle]

Thanks Annette

Sending this photo in case you haven't seen it.

Hereford Times 10th January 1914

Let me know if you would like a better copy.

[6th Shropshires]

Thanks for photo Myrtle.

Annette