museumtom Posted 3 July , 2022 Author Share Posted 3 July , 2022 He was put forward in the past to IFCP and was refused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 3 July , 2022 Author Share Posted 3 July , 2022 This lad has to be a contender. Had TB for 26 months, can you help also with this lad please? I am away for the morning at a car boot, wish me luck! Conway John Private. Royal Irish Fusiliers 36 Kirby Street, Liverpool. 25/05/1919 Died after discharge at Pound Street, Birr, from phthisis pulmonalis 26 weeks certified. Unknown Serial No: 4519 Unit: 3rd Battalion Age: 47 Born: Birr, King's County. Enlisted: Liverpool Next of Kin: Married Mary O'Leary, at Birr, King's County, on 01/11/1898. Father of Bridget, Mary Margaret, John Brendan, Joseph Arthur and Patrick Conway. Son of Patrick and Eileen Conway, brother of James, Bridget, Margaret and Ellen Conway, Birr, King's County. Address on one of his pension cards is Pound Street, Birr, King's County. Address on discharge on 12/07/1917-36 Kirby Street, Liverpool. Grave or Memorial: Notes: Died after discharge. Discharged 12/07/1917. Formerly served with the Royal Irish Regiment and the Connaught Rangers, No 4829. His number on the Silver War Badge roll is G 519. Enlisted 29/10/1914. Also listed in his pension card under 2519. Served overseas. https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?sid=998&lastname=conway&keywords=4829&keywordsplace_proximity=5&sourcecategory=armed+forces+%26+conflict&sourcecountry=great+britain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 3 July , 2022 Share Posted 3 July , 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, museumtom said: Collins Jeremiah Private. 5th (Royal Irish) Lancers Upper Sqyare, Clonakilty, County Cork. 03/03/1919 Died at Upper Square, Clonakilty, from phthisis 2 years syncope certified. His brother Tom Collins, was present at death. Unknown Serial No: 4373 Jerome COLLINS, 4373, 5th Lancers [Also as Jeramiah COLLINS, 4373, Lancers] Jerome Fold 3 have an unspecified disability card on discharge, 25.6.17 - pension 27/6 pw [typical many claims but especially typical of 100% disability for employment which was usual for Phthisis - intended to stop sufferers going out to work and spreading the disease amongst the wider population] and mother, Minnie FITZPATRICK, dependant's pension claim PLIC [records as died of phthisis 3/3/19] There are other cards as Jeramiah [**with his brother Thomas, 5758, Royal Munster Fusiliers - seems to have died likely of a war-related condition as he was claimed for post-5/25**] but none offer much assistance. The main MoP pension file for Jerome/Jeramiah was deliberately destroyed 10.5.27 This is unfortunately going to be/is a difficult case for Jerome/Jeramiah as unfortunately the most informative disability claim card, mentioned above, does not specifiy his [phthisis] condition and even so, if not supported by other military papers, pension records would seemingly not be enough for CWGC anyway. [Apparently according to CWGC "the MoP made mistakes" - just how many mistakes must they have made? And as if the Military and I/CWGC didn't/don't make mistakes?? = Please excuse my angst but the CWGC seem to routinely think, especially for Phthisis/pulmonary TB, that the MoP got it wrong when they awarded the Nation's money as pensions - this surely cannot really be the case and it does seem like a 'get out of gaol card' for CWGC who seem to now apply a far too high a bar to commemoration - this seems at odds with their Charter and purpose.] M Edited 3 July , 2022 by Matlock1418 typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 3 July , 2022 Share Posted 3 July , 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, museumtom said: This lad has to be a contender. Had TB for 26 months, can you help also with this lad please? I am away for the morning at a car boot, wish me luck! Conway John Private. Royal Irish Fusiliers 36 Kirby Street, Liverpool. 25/05/1919 Died after discharge at Pound Street, Birr, from phthisis pulmonalis 26 weeks certified. Unknown Serial No: 4519 Hope the car boot trawl went well, or that you shifted loads! Or both!! Another Phthisis/Pulmonary TB challenge with CWGC for you! Like you I read that as 26 months on the death registration [?] - by my calculation that means it must have started immediately just after his 12/7/17 discharge!! [likely CWGC interpretation perhaps?] You seem to know about his pension cards, probably from a search transcription I suspect, not sure you will have personally looked at them - Looking at pension cards I couldn't see anything that appeared particularly helpful. Other than he made a claim for, and then there was a claim for/by, wife/widow and 4 children. Sorry, not a lot. M Edited 3 July , 2022 by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 3 July , 2022 Author Share Posted 3 July , 2022 Back finally, thank you Matlock, just catching up with you now. Had a great day but nothing special was bought. Its herselfs day out, once she is happy we are all happy. Pity about Jeremiah/Jerome. IFCP and CWGC will not go for it and I do understand your frustration with them and the MOP. Its a funny old game just the same. I can see you went to a lot of time and trouble with him for which I am as always most grateful, thank you kindly. Now then lets have a look at Conway.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 3 July , 2022 Author Share Posted 3 July , 2022 Poor old Condon, I am sure we looked at him in the past and could not find the critical sheet but we are after all in the last chance saloon and we did get Michael Cleary accepted yesterday so these are worthwhile final reviews. Thank you again for your tireless work with Condon also, now we can move along to the next contenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 3 July , 2022 Author Share Posted 3 July , 2022 Next one was turned down in the past. See reason given I am hoping there exists something that might save him. Can you have a look please? Considine Michael Sergeant Irish Guards Dunabeg, County Clare-death certificate. 17/02/1919 Died at the Richmond Hospital, from spinal caries cardiac failure certified. Unknown Serial No: 6798 Unit: 3rd Battalion Age: 27 Born: Doonbeg, County Clare. Enlisted: Dublin. Next of Kin: Son of Bridget Considine, Doonbeg, County Clare. Grave or Memorial: Notes: Died after discharge. A single man. Occupation on enlistment-R.I.C. Constable, at Julianstown R.I.C. Barracks, County Meath. Discharged 22/07/1918 being no longer physically fit for war service-Neuritis and sciatica. Wounded in the war. Enlisted 11/02/1915, and awarded Silver War Badge number 431195 on 31/07/1918. Put forward to the 'In From The Cold Project' on 17/07/2020 and was not accepted-'Discharged with sciatica but died of TB of spine. They can be connected and they also can not. No real evidence of connection.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 3 July , 2022 Share Posted 3 July , 2022 (edited) 15 minutes ago, museumtom said: Considine Michael Sergeant Irish Guards Dunabeg, County Clare-death certificate. 17/02/1919 Died at the Richmond Hospital, from spinal caries cardiac failure certified. Unknown Serial No: 6798 15 minutes ago, museumtom said: 'Discharged with sciatica but died of TB of spine. They can be connected and they also can not. No real evidence of connection.' Michael CONSIDINE, 6798, Royal Munster Fusiliers Pension card on discharge 22.7.18 does not specify his disability but he got a pension of 32/6 pw from 23.7.17 to 20.8.18. File destroyed, 10.5.27 Mother later made a dependant's claim but cards do not seem to positively identify how she got on and don't seem to add. A tricky situation - sciatica can have so many causes. M Edited 3 July , 2022 by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 3 July , 2022 Author Share Posted 3 July , 2022 Thank you Matlock, if there was anything to find I have great confidence you would have found it. Thank you for trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 3 July , 2022 Author Share Posted 3 July , 2022 This one may have a chance with you if I may please. Folder3 or critical sheet should save him. Can you help again please? Conway John Private. Royal Irish Fusiliers 36 Kirby Street, Liverpool. 25/05/1919 Died after discharge at Pound Street, Birr, from phthisis pulmonalis 26 weeks certified. Unknown Serial No: 4519 Unit: 3rd Battalion Age: 47 Born: Birr, King's County. Enlisted: Liverpool Next of Kin: Married Mary O'Leary, at Birr, King's County, on 01/11/1898. Father of Bridget, Mary Margaret, John Brendan, Joseph Arthur and Patrick Conway. Son of Patrick and Eileen Conway, brother of James, Bridget, Margaret and Ellen Conway, Birr, King's County. Address on one of his pension cards is Pound Street, Birr, King's County. Address on discharge on 12/07/1917-36 Kirby Street, Liverpool. Grave or Memorial: Notes: Died after discharge. Discharged 12/07/1917. Formerly served with the Royal Irish Regiment and the Connaught Rangers, No 4829. His service number on the Silver War Badge roll is G519. Enlisted 29/10/1914. Also listed in his pension card under 2519. Served overseas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 3 July , 2022 Author Share Posted 3 July , 2022 Records are here. https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F007305696%2F01076&parentid=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F7305696%2F52%2F1076 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 3 July , 2022 Share Posted 3 July , 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, museumtom said: This one may have a chance with you if I may please. Folder3 or critical sheet should save him. Can you help again please? Conway John Private. Royal Irish Fusiliers 36 Kirby Street, Liverpool. 25/05/1919 Died after discharge at Pound Street, Birr, from phthisis pulmonalis 26 weeks certified. Unknown Serial No: 4519 As above, the WFA/Fold3 pension cards haven't changed! - still an unidentified disability and a wife/widow & 4 children!! Though, as you have identified above, I would comment and emphasise that G/519 appears to have been his Irish Guards Fusiliers number. M Edited 3 July , 2022 by Matlock1418 strike & correction - sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 3 July , 2022 Share Posted 3 July , 2022 Cards on Fold3 as Jeremiah & Jerome: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 3 July , 2022 Share Posted 3 July , 2022 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said: Cards on Fold3 as Jeremiah & Jerome: Yes, those are some of the ones mentioned above. For anyone who might be interested - the yellow rectangles on the Jerome cards above indicate that the card has now/today been annotated [see online in full] E.g. Full annotation "Jeramiah COLLINS recorded on other pension cards and on medal index card" = It's a useful WFA/Fold3 user feature that allows the Jerome cards to be picked up even if only Jeramiah is used in a search [and because the Jeramiah cards have been similarly annotated as Jerome, vice versa] Just thought I'd share this handy feature. M Edited 3 July , 2022 by Matlock1418 typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 3 July , 2022 Author Share Posted 3 July , 2022 Thank you Matlock and Ivor, changes duly noted. Much appreciated, thanks again. Cheers. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 4 July , 2022 Author Share Posted 4 July , 2022 Good morning all. Are we all ready for the difficult ones? We are on the final leg, the last review of the death certs in 1919. 1920 and 1921 to go and then we are finished and you can all go on the hols. Can you help with this one please? I am not sure if you can see the image so here is the info. Thomas Cunningham, a single man, aged 47, address Longford, died 13/12/1919 at Longford Union Workhouse from pulmonary tuberculosis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 4 July , 2022 Author Share Posted 4 July , 2022 Back again. Y'know this lad might just get through. May I have the links for his records and possible folder3 also please? Daly John Valentine Orderly British Army Red Cross Society Volunteers 19 Moyderwell, Tralee, County Kerry. 06/11/1919 Died after discharge at his home, 19 Moyderwell, Tralee, County Kerry from Pulmonary Tuberculosis 4 months Cardiac Failure, certified. His mother, Nora Daly, (born 1843), 19 Moyderwell, Tralee, County Kerry was present at death. Listed as a soldier on his death certificate. Unknown Serial No: Unit: Age: 30 Born: Enlisted: 17/11/1917 until discharge on 03/03/1918. Pay 28/- per week. Next of Kin: Grave or Memorial: Notes: According to his pension cards in folder3 he was a Private in the R.A.M.C., service number 14802 and was discharged with tubercle of lung on 03/03/1918. His Red Cross card also says he was discharged as a Red Cross Orderly on this date. He does have a medal index card for the British Red Cross, with no service number under John V Daly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 4 July , 2022 Share Posted 4 July , 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, museumtom said: May I have the links for his records and possible folder3 also please? Daly John Valentine Orderly British Army Red Cross Society Volunteers 19 Moyderwell, Tralee, County Kerry. 06/11/1919 WFA/Fold3 pension links and a few of cards https://www.fold3.com/image/700821704?terms=daly,14802 - Disability claim and pension paid https://www.fold3.com/image/645017621?terms=daly,14802 - TB of lung https://www.fold3.com/image/668545004?terms=daly,14802 - Case no 21, BRCS, like 1st card above - Pulmonary TB https://www.fold3.com/image/668545088?terms=daly,john,valentine,cross - 14802 RAMC (BRC), Orderley - mother's claim https://www.fold3.com/image/645801475?terms=daly,14802 https://www.fold3.com/image/645805727?terms=daly,14802 - Mrs Norah DALY, mother's payments https://www.fold3.com/image/690273375?terms=daly,john,valentine,cross - 14802 BRC (RAMC), mother Mrs Nora DALY M Edited 4 July , 2022 by Matlock1418 note Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 4 July , 2022 Author Share Posted 4 July , 2022 Excellent cards, thank you kindly Matlock. Can you see any record that shows he was discharged with TB please? The folder3 cards just show he died from TB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 4 July , 2022 Author Share Posted 4 July , 2022 (edited) This one is a bit of a mystery as his records says he was discharged to the reserve in 1920. Can you help please? Records. https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F007266820%2F01265&parentid=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F7266820%2F96%2F1265 Daly Matthew Private Royal Munster Fusiliers 3 Byrne’s Court, Shandon Street, Cork, 03/11/1919 Died at his home, 3 Burns Court, from pulmonary tuberculosis about 10 months certified. His mother, Hannah Daly, 3 Burns Court, was present at death. Currykippane (St Mary’s) Cemetery, County Cork. Serial No: 7771 Unit: Age: 33 Born: St Annes, Cork. Enlisted: Tralee, County Kerry Next of Kin: Son of Patrick and Hannah Daly, of 3 Byrnes Court, Cork. Brother of James and Bridget Byrne. Was a POW in Germany from 27-08-1914 to 01-12-1918. is records are available on FindMyPast. Grave or Memorial: Notes: Newspapers Books etc: Cork Examiner, 04/11/1919. Daly-On November 3rd, at his residence, 3 Bourn’s Court, Cork, Matthew Daly, late of Royal Munster Fusiliers, second son of Patrick and Hannah Daly. Deeply regretted by his father, mother brothers and sisters, and a large circle of friends. R.I.P. Funeral from Cathedral at 2.30 p.m., on to-morrow (Wednesday) for Curraghkippane. Edited 4 July , 2022 by museumtom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 4 July , 2022 Author Share Posted 4 July , 2022 Are they one and the same? http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Roscommon/Boyle_Urban/The_Green_or_Church_Street/779187/ https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007266820%2f02281&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7266820%2f171%2f2275 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 4 July , 2022 Author Share Posted 4 July , 2022 It is not letting me post images, here is the dc info. Aged 18, army pensioner William Daly, Boyle, a single man died from influenza at Boyle Workhouse, on 26/11/1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 4 July , 2022 Share Posted 4 July , 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, museumtom said: Excellent cards, thank you kindly Matlock. Can you see any record that shows he was discharged with TB please? The folder3 cards just show he died from TB. John Valentine DALY Sorry Tom, like you that's as far as I can see from the pension cards posted above - cause of death - Pulmonary TB 1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said: https://www.fold3.com/image/645017621?terms=daly,14802 - TB of lung But, as posted above, this link/additional ledger card show disability pension for TB of lung - you can see the 13/MD/1765 MoP reference link to his Chelsea Hospital discharge card [1st card posted above] - so they were paying a pension for TB, seemingly from discharge [as no other condition(s) is listed on any of the cards] - but unfortunately it's not definitive evidence of his cause of discharge, at least seems unlikely to be considered so at CWGC. Image courtesy of WFA/Fold3 Sorry, it's all so circumstantial [however circumstantial is often enough to convict in a criminal court of law, and certainly likely more so in civil cases - but at present seems likely not for CWGC commemoration! ???] However, you won't know for certain unless you try to present to CWGC. I feel it is a reasonable case. Surely worth a go. Good luck. M Edited 4 July , 2022 by Matlock1418 add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 4 July , 2022 Share Posted 4 July , 2022 (edited) As so many cases appear as the cause of death of ex-soldiers [and which appear currently rejected by CWGC] so far as Phthisis/Pulmonary TB is concerend it seems worthwhile again posting the MoP guidance on the disease. Appears to be p.16 MoP Annual Report to 31-3-18 - Likely 1917 RW from 1-4-17. Courtesy of Craig @ss002d6252 here on GWF Note specifically: "unless there was evidence to the contrary" and a "general presumption" and/or "unless the invaliding Board or the medical advisers of the Ministry were satisfied that phthisis was present previous to enlistment, and that the disease was not aggravated by service" If in doubt, with a general presumption and with a lack of contrary evidence it seems a pension was paid. Not sure why CWGC don't use for commemoration purposes - after all the MoP were approved by Parliament & the Minister and MoP had distributed public monies on those grounds = ??? M Edited 4 July , 2022 by Matlock1418 add comment & so many typos :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 4 July , 2022 Author Share Posted 4 July , 2022 (edited) Thank you kindly Matlock, I was sure there was a card out there that said he was discharged with TB and was hoping it would say agg, caused by or originated during. Sadly I know in my heart of hearts with it he will not be entertained. I see what you mean why will the CWGC not use it for commemoration purposes. The difference with the database and the CWGC is that I have a grey area, a place where soldiers are added when they nearly qualify. History would be so much better if they could do the same. Oh and before I go, are you trying to bring in logic with these cases?, its a slippery road you are on and no good result at the destination. Thank you again Matlock for sticking with this, these are not the easy ones and not for the faint hearted. Kind regards. Tom. Edited 4 July , 2022 by museumtom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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