Postcards

[Tomb1302]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

They are such mature looking men.  The three in the bottom left corner appear very much like brothers. 

FROGSMILE,

Thank you for adding to my post ! ~ I hadn't noticed that, but do see some similarities in expressions and features of these men. 

Of note on your comment about their maturity, each existing French regiment at the outbreak of the war had created a new regiment composed of reserves that was (in number) theirs plus 200. 

What that means is that these men, the 321st Infantry Regiment, were reserves of the of the 121st Infantry Regiment, and were likely in their late twenties to mid thirties. 

[FROGSMILE]

46 minutes ago, Tomb1302 said:

FROGSMILE,

Thank you for adding to my post ! ~ I hadn't noticed that, but do see some similarities in expressions and features of these men. 

Of note on your comment about their maturity, each existing French regiment at the outbreak of the war had created a new regiment composed of reserves that was (in number) theirs plus 200. 

What that means is that these men, the 321st Infantry Regiment, were reserves of the of the 121st Infantry Regiment, and were likely in their late twenties to mid thirties. 

Thank you for explaining.  It’s a very interesting modus operandi and epitomises the experience of continental Europe in creating a mass conscript army with inbuilt capacity to expand.  Great Britain had no such experience on that scale.

[poona guard]

Excellent photo. Iwonder which of them survived all those batles and wrote the card.

Excellent photo. Iwonder which of them survived all those batles and wrote the card.

[GWF1967]

Fife and Forfar Yeomanry. 

[FROGSMILE]

39 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

Fife and Forfar Yeomanry. 

A typical stables parade with the men told off into work parties, some mucking out and others cleaning tack.  Very evocative of the life of men in a mounted unit where life revolved around the needs of the equine establishment on a 24/7 basis.  Something largely forgotten about now.  Thank you for posting.

Edited 20 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

Royal Artillery Farriers. 

[gunnerwalker]

Two Lincolnshire chaps; the first of the Lincolnshire Regiment sporting two territorial efficiency stars, the second of the Yeomanry photographed in Norwich.

 

[Pat Atkins]

The Norwich provenance of the second postcard is logical. According to LLT, 1/1st Lincs Yeomanry were in the North Midland Mounted Bde at the outbreak of the war, joining 1st Mounted Division in Norfolk. The 2/1st replaced them in Norfolk in October 1915 when 1/1st embarked for Salonika, and remained there until May 1917.

Although smaller, does his horseshoe badge indicate a farrier/shoeing smith - like the corporal in GWF1967's earlier RA postcard?

[gunnerwalker]

52 minutes ago, Pat Atkins said:

The Norwich provenance of the second postcard is logical. According to LLT, 1/1st Lincs Yeomanry were in the North Midland Mounted Bde at the outbreak of the war, joining 1st Mounted Division in Norfolk. The 2/1st replaced them in Norfolk in October 1915 when 1/1st embarked for Salonika, and remained there until May 1917.

Thanks for the detail. It took me quite a while to figure out the cap badge as it's partially obscured, but I got there in the end purely by process of elimination.

52 minutes ago, Pat Atkins said:

Although smaller, does his horseshoe badge indicate a farrier/shoeing smith - like the corporal in GWF1967's earlier RA postcard?

I presume so, but someone more knowledgeable might say otherwise or give an explanation for the difference in size, if there is one.

Edited 22 November , 2023 by gunnerwalker

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, gunnerwalker said:

Thanks for the detail. It took me quite a while to figure out the cap badge as it's partially obscured, but I got there in the end purely by process of elimination.

I presume so, but someone more knowledgeable might say otherwise or give an explanation for the difference in size, if there is one.

The brass badge for positioning above stripes was relatively smaller than the bullion wire equivalent.  This was so that it could be used for staff sergeants and warrant officers too.  One size fits all, as it were.

[Tomb1302]

Young French infantrymen of the 144th Infantry Regiment sit in their trench equipped with their early gag gas masks, July 26th 1915.

Following the first use of chemicals by the Germans, April 1915 had unofficially marked the extent to which armies would go to win the war; Humanity was lost. Understanding the threat of gas attacks, the French army first distributed to soldiers thick damp gags and civilian-standard protective goggles to protect the eyes and mouth from the harms of chlorine, visible in this photo.

https://www.ww1throughfrencheyes.com/

[poona guard]

Interesting how many of them have their noses exposed.

[Tomb1302]

1 hour ago, poona guard said:

Interesting how many of them have their noses exposed.

The photo is likely staged and the masks over the nose is an unnecessary discomfort. 

In any case, none of it looks too convincing in the protection against gas .... 

[gunnerwalker]

B Company, 4th Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment, Tug of War Team and regimental finalists. Photographed by H. Hitchen of Northwich.

Note the medal ribbon on the sergeant's chest and that the officer appears to be wearing an adapted version of an OR's jacket.

I'm struggling to find any online references to a Northwich/Cheshire territorials camp - if anyone has information on the annual camps and could help it would be most appreciated. I imagine this is pre-war rather than during due to the lack of distinction between 1/4th, 2/4th or 3/4th Battalions. Camps I know the Gloucesters attended are: Swanage in 1908; Salisbury Plain in both 1910 and 1912; and Minehead in 1914.

Edited 22 November , 2023 by gunnerwalker

[Andrew Upton]

2 hours ago, gunnerwalker said:

...Note the medal ribbon on the sergeant's chest and that the officer appears to be wearing an adapted version of an OR's jacket...

The ribbon appears to be the QSA, and the officers jacket isn't an adapted OR's jacket but the original pre-1912 version of officers Service Dress (5-button front, with closed collar and twisted cord epaulets), which was replaced in that year with the 4-button front version with open collar and solid epaulets made of jacket material that was standard at the start of the war.

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, gunnerwalker said:

B Company, 4th Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment, Tug of War Team and regimental finalists. Photographed by H. Hitchen of Northwich.

Note the medal ribbon on the sergeant's chest and that the officer appears to be wearing an adapted version of an OR's jacket.

I'm struggling to find any online references to a Northwich/Cheshire territorials camp - if anyone has information on the annual camps and could help it would be most appreciated. I imagine this is pre-war rather than during due to the lack of distinction between 1/4th, 2/4th or 3/4th Battalions. Camps I know the Gloucesters attended are: Swanage in 1908; Salisbury Plain in both 1910 and 1912; and Minehead in 1914.

The enclosed photos show the 1902 officers drab serge service dress seen in your image with the collar modified to be open from 1912 (promulgated subsequently in a 1913 amendment to dress regulations), but in this case for the field rank grade of major.  Particular features of this original style of jacket were the broad vertical pleat down the centre of the back and a shorter skirt than became the preference with the modifications that followed.  Also, later on whipcord and various other weights of cloth became popular alternatives to serge.  There was also a Scottish variant with cutaway front as per the captain’s example seen here, but no plan was made for off the peg provision of such a cut for soldiers until after the war.

Edited 23 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[gunnerwalker]

10 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

The ribbon appears to be the QSA, and the officers jacket isn't an adapted OR's jacket but the original pre-1912 version of officers Service Dress (5-button front, with closed collar and twisted cord epaulets), which was replaced in that year with the 4-button front version with open collar and solid epaulets made of jacket material that was standard at the start of the war.

 

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The enclosed photos show the 1902 officers drab serge service dress seen in your image with the collar modified to be open from 1912 (promulgated subsequently in a 1913 amendment to dress regulations), but in this case for the field rank grade of major.  Particular features of this original style of jacket were the broad vertical pleat down the centre of the back and a shorter skirt than became the preference with the modifications that followed.  Also, later on whipcord and various other weights of cloth became popular alternatives to serge.  There was also a Scottish variant with cutaway front as per the captain’s example seen here, but no plan was made for off the peg provision of such a cut for soldiers until after the war.

Thanks for the thorough info gents. So probably going to be a 1909 or 1911 camp?

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, gunnerwalker said:

 

Thanks for the thorough info gents. So probably going to be a 1909 or 1911 camp?

Probably around then yes, as the sergeant has fixed shoulder straps and the new, metal titles issued to the TF, after their establishment in 1908.  If you look in the Territorial Force year book for those dates, you will probably find which exact time 4th Glosters (TF) were at Northwich.  Located in Cheshire, another possible source of information about the annual training camps would be the local newspaper, as they usually did a public interest piece about who was at camp that year, and sometimes their activities and what their behaviour had been like. 

Edited 23 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[17107BM]

20 hours ago, gunnerwalker said:

B Company, 4th Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment, Tug of War Team and regimental finalists. Photographed by H. Hitchen of Northwich.

Note the medal ribbon on the sergeant's chest and that the officer appears to be wearing an adapted version of an OR's jacket.

I'm struggling to find any online references to a Northwich/Cheshire territorials camp - if anyone has information on the annual camps and could help it would be most appreciated. I imagine this is pre-war rather than during due to the lack of distinction between 1/4th, 2/4th or 3/4th Battalions. Camps I know the Gloucesters attended are: Swanage in 1908; Salisbury Plain in both 1910 and 1912; and Minehead in 1914.

Just a casual observation. That does look to be a railway line in the back ground of the image. Typical of a rail line in North Wales, say, Penmaenmawr area? Would it not cover the road layout of the day? 

Great image. Maybe the photographer travelled for the work. Very interesting.

 

Gary.

[CheshireRifles]

11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The enclosed photos show the 1902 officers drab serge service dress seen in your image with the collar modified to be open from 1912 (promulgated subsequently in a 1913 amendment to dress regulations), but in this case for the field rank grade of major.  Particular features of this original style of jacket were the broad vertical pleat down the centre of the back and a shorter skirt than became the preference with the modifications that followed.  Also, later on whipcord and various other weights of cloth became popular alternatives to serge.  There was also a Scottish variant with cutaway front as per the captain’s example seen here, but no plan was made for off the peg provision of such a cut for soldiers until after the war.

Great to see the differences in uniform. Nice to see changes in buttons and different cuff and shoulder insignia 

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, CheshireRifles said:

Great to see the differences in uniform. Nice to see changes in buttons and different cuff and shoulder insignia 

The leather buttons are not regimental and something that evolved during the war both, for officers, and for other ranks.  The former might choose their preference in a gentleman’s outfitters, whereas for other ranks it was a matter of whatever type was provided by the Ordnance Supply Chain.

Edited 23 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[gunnerwalker]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Probably around then yes, as the sergeant has fixed shoulder straps and the new, metal titles issued to the TF, after their establishment in 1908.  If you look in the Territorial Force year book for those dates, you will probably find which exact time 4th Glosters (TF) were at Northwich.  Located in Cheshire, another possible source of information about the annual training camps would be the local newspaper, as they usually did a public interest piece about who was at camp that year, and sometimes their activities and what their behaviour had been like. 

Thanks FROGSMILE. I'll scout some newspaper archives and see if anything comes up. Is the Territorial Force Yearbook an online resource?

 

2 hours ago, 17107BM said:

Just a casual observation. That does look to be a railway line in the back ground of the image. Typical of a rail line in North Wales, say, Penmaenmawr area? Would it not cover the road layout of the day? 

Great image. Maybe the photographer travelled for the work. Very interesting.

 

Gary.

Thanks. I had considered the photographer might have travelled. I'll see what FROGSMILE's suggestions show and then, if unsuccessful, I'll broaden the search to nearby areas.

[FROGSMILE]

56 minutes ago, gunnerwalker said:

Thanks FROGSMILE. I'll scout some newspaper archives and see if anything comes up. Is the Territorial Force Yearbook an online resource?

 

Thanks. I had considered the photographer might have travelled. I'll see what FROGSMILE's suggestions show and then, if unsuccessful, I'll broaden the search to nearby areas.

I think it was the annually published “Harts Territorial Force List”.  I believe they are available online from a few different sources.

Edited 23 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[gunnerwalker]

11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think it was the annually published “Harts Territorial Force List”.  I believe they are available online from a few different sources.

Many thanks. I'll start digging.

[FROGSMILE]

On 23/11/2023 at 22:59, gunnerwalker said:

Many thanks. I'll start digging.

A variety of military lists were published and Holts made a lot of money from selling them commercially.  This one I’m referring to was an annual and specifically for the Territorial Force. 

Edited 3 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE