Postcards

[FROGSMILE]

Yes it’s a cracking photo.  The woollen jumper was an Army issue type that seems to have been issued for physical training purposes (like a modern day sweatshirt or tracksuit top).  The large fleur-de-lis is I think a 1st-Class Scouts badge.  Typical enamelled mugs and just one man without black rifles buttons.

Edited 25 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Thank you Grovetown. Please can you attempt to date the group?

The scout badge is definitely the first class, with cross-bar, but appears to be worsted as I seem to detect deformation. Such worsted never appeared in official listings, but often in real photos.

The other intriguing item is his 5-point star. It may well be four years of efficient service, but there is always the chance that it was the distance-judging star. VF and TF Regs are vague as to the various regular badges which might be competed for ........ is distance-judging a "skill-at-arms" badge? It is lumped together with musketry in Musketry Regs.

Distance-judging is clearly a good scouting skill, and no other soldier has what might be an efficiency badge.

Every good quality photo carries its own enigma.

[Grovetown]

11 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Please can you attempt to date the group?

 

Postmarked Tunbridge Wells, September 23rd 1914.

[FROGSMILE]

The School of Musketry was instrumental in introducing the distance judging star in the sense that when rifle muskets were introduced for general infantry issue there was a concern that each soldier needed to be able to assess range and set his own sights rather than be always reliant on his officer or sergeant to issue the setting.  This was in order to avoid circumstances where the projectile either fell in front of or passed over the top of the target array.  The intent was to ensure that each shot fell between the ‘first graze’ (the ankles) and the ‘first catch’ (the head), thus ensuring maximum efficacy from as many shots fired as possible.  This requirement entered a new degree of urgency with the issue of the .577/450 Boxer-Henry cartridge when fired from the Martini-Henry rifle, as it had an unusually high trajectory when compared with its predecessors.

 

 

Edited 26 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Grovetown]

13 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The School of Musketry.

 

Et voila!

 

 

[Muerrisch]

 

21 hours ago, Grovetown said:

 

Postmarked Tunbridge Wells, September 23rd 1914.

Thank you: they look relaxed "don't you know there's a war on!"

 

The distance judging star appears to have arisen from the perceived shortcomings of musketry in the Boer War: CR 1904 is first appearance although it might be in a slightly earlier PVCN, a copy of which I am promised.

Previously, Musketry Regulations 1874 suggested granting "indulgences" to the best judges among the men, and the regulations of 1884 awarded cash prizes: £1 for an infantryman, but only 10/- for cavalry. No badge however. Interestingly, when the badge was introduced, there was no cash.

 

The Lee-Enfields with volley sight used at longer ranges might, under the right terrain circumstances, reduce the need for accurate range estimation, but this would only be if the fall of shot [dust and gravel kicked up] could be observed.

 

With late VF/ early TF there would clearly be a conflict of stars if distance judging and efficiency were both awarded. This c. 1908 photo lifted from GWF, not sure of owner, apologies/ acknowledgements due.

 

Hence:

 

Edited 26 February , 2021 by Muerrisch
typo and addendum

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, Grovetown said:

 

Et voila!

 

 

 

Thank you for posting that excellent photo.  They are comparatively rare, especially such a good one. 
 

The effort to promote distance judging was a long standing one by the School of Musketry and given considerable impetus by the 2nd Anglo/Boer War.  When fighting indigenous natives it had been policy to mark out ranges from defensive positions using posts driven into the ground at 100yd intervals and painted white on the friendly side.  These had been aids to assist officers and SNCOs with ordering the adjustment of back sights as the enemy advanced.  Such methods had been used in defensive postures at Khartoum, in Afghanistan, and in the Zulu wars, but were found ineffective against Boer Farmers who had been raised to shoot from childhood and who understood how to use undulating ground to their advantage.  It was in part this situation that governed the time span introducing the judging distance badge.

Edited 26 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Grovetown]

43 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you for posting that excellent photo.  They are comparatively rare, especially such a good one. 

 

 

Luckily it's uniquely named: 5 (yes, regtl number 5) S/Sjt John King, SoM.

 

Taken in Colchester and dated December 1914.

 

He has an MIC I must access at some point.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

[FROGSMILE]

On 26/02/2021 at 14:53, Grovetown said:

 

Luckily it's uniquely named: 5 (yes, regtl number 5) S/Sjt John King, SoM.

 

Taken in Colchester and dated December 1914.

 

He has an MIC I must access at some point.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

Thank you, that’s interesting to know.  During WW1 the School of Musketry expanded in Britain and Ireland so that there was a small school in each of the Army’s regional administrative Commands.  I imagine that SSjt King was at the Eastern Command (one of whose District HQ’s was in Colchester) school.

Edited 27 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Grovetown]

A quick sidestep to the QWRs this time. Pay parade, Abergavenny 1913. 

 

One of the great things about the voided QWR cap badge is how easy it is to spot, even in poor definition images. QVR voided isn't bad either, but not as obvious as the QWR.

 

Interesting thing about this shot, apart from plimsolls being worn, is the half-dozen or so neck curtains.

 

The chap at the far back of the queue leaning on his elbow has a badge on his left arm that looks like strung bugle, but I couldn't see anything in Grumpy's book that would immediately qualify.

 

Supporting image is of my QVR stiff cap and neck curtain - from Chris Pollendine's Campaign 1915, published by Military Mode and shot by Oliver Lock - for comparison.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

Edited 27 February , 2021 by Grovetown

[FROGSMILE]

It’s another super picture.  The cloth arm badge that you spotted is the doubled bugle favoured only by Rifle Regiments at that time.  It was worn by buglers and bugle majors.  As with drummers, clothing regulations stipulated that it should be worn on the right arm only, but it was very commonly worn on both arms.  As drummers and buglers were paid a penny per diem extra and were listed on nominal rolls separately to privates and NCOs I think it tended to be seen as rather like a rank or status badge even though that was erroneous.  The badge was produced in drab and gilding metal for SD and various coloured cloths for undress frocks. It was not intended for full dress where special lace was considered sufficient as a marker of role, but again non regular soldiers often ignored this. 
 

The two soldiers stood directly behind the subalterns at the pay table are likely to be their orderlies, but acting as witnesses in accordance with regulations for pay parades.

 

Edited 16 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Grovetown]

On 26/02/2021 at 14:00, Muerrisch said:

 

Thank you: they look relaxed "don't you know there's a war on!"

 

The distance judging star appears to have arisen from the perceived shortcomings of musketry in the Boer War: CR 1904 is first appearance although it might be in a slightly earlier PVCN, a copy of which I am promised.

Previously, Musketry Regulations 1874 suggested granting "indulgences" to the best judges among the men, and the regulations of 1884 awarded cash prizes: £1 for an infantryman, but only 10/- for cavalry. No badge however. Interestingly, when the badge was introduced, there was no cash.

 

Etc

 

Thank you for the additonal detail. The question it throws up in my mind is to why the army would create two identical badges for wildly different purposes and thus create the potential for confusion.

 

15 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s another super picture.  The cloth arm badge that you spotted is the doubled bugle favoured only by Rifle Regiments at that time.  It was worn by buglers and bugle majors.  As with drummers, clothing regulations stipulated that it should be worn on the right arm only, but it was very commonly worn on both arms.  As drummers and buglers were paid a penny per diem extra and were listed on nominal rolls separately to privates and NCOs I think it tended to be seen as rather like a rank or status badge even though that was erroneous.  The badge was produced in drab and gilding metal for SD and various coloured cloths for undress frocks. It was not intended for full dress where special lace was considered sufficient as a marker of role, but again non regular soldiers often ignored this. 
 

The two soldiers stood directly behind the subalterns at the pay table are likely to be their orderlies.

 

 

 

 

Thank you. Yes: that is what I thought was the closest match, but see the one in the image as wider and flatter and so I didn't care for it. But at the distance and with the definition of the pic (no strength of linen tester etc is good enough) it is entirely possible, and there isn't another candidate even near.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Grovetown said:

 

Thank you for the additonal detail. The question it throws up in my mind is to why the army would create two identical badges for wildly different purposes and thus create the potential for confusion.

 

 

Thank you. Yes: that is what I thought was the closest match, but see the one in the image as wider and flatter and so I didn't care for it. But at the distance and with the definition of the pic (no strength of linen tester etc is good enough) it is entirely possible, and there isn't another candidate even near.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

Yes the double bugle used by Rifles was wider in dimensions than the single type generally used by Light Infantry units, so it’s entirely understandable that you would see it in that way when trying to make out what it was (in less than perfect circumstances).

Edited 27 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Grovetown: Regarding the over-use of the star [whether four points large, four points small, five points, six points and eight points] the RACD and hierarchy were wedded to it, and the marriage was a lasting one, also spreading to cadet forces 

[somewhere in my memory is a hint of a seven point star but that way madness lies .....]

[Ipcress]

I've listed my postcards from a few pages back in the classifieds section, with the money going towards the site

[Gardenerbill]

This is Robert Henry Morris R.A. he attested 29-05-1916 Age 30 Yrs and was married so possibly Derby Scheme. He was one of my wife's a great uncles.  I have his paybook, medals and service papers. He served in the 277th Siege Battery R.G.A. 

 

[Toby Brayley]

Unsent postcard. An unknown (I think I can make out crossed lances on the cap badge) collarmaker/saddler/harness maker type. Sadly, a bit blurry but still a brilliant study of the chest and various tools. 

[battle of loos]

Good morning,

 

beautiful evocative photo of a saddler to the 12th Lancers (Prince of Wales's Royal).

 

regards

 

michel

Edited 15 March , 2021 by battle of loos

[FROGSMILE]

Very interesting photo Toby, thank you for posting.  I agree it looks like the 12th Lancers.  The final pattern badge for the 21st looked similar, but they were in India.

[bigronhartley]

Father & Sons.

L-R Alexander, George and William Spence "A" Coy 1/7th Bn Dunfirmline.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/aO9qZVK.jpg?1[/img]

Hello Ron

Did you research the Spence Family ? What is the source for, and is there any information on, the photograph ? I am researching 182/290008 Sgt Alexander Spence 1/7 Bn Black Watch. Born 1892/93 Dunfermline, Fife. Taken POW 22/23 March, 1918 at Beugny. Son of George and Lizzie D Spence, Castleblair, Dunfermline, Fife. I would be most grateful for any information . Many thanks

Regards

Ron

[Toby Brayley]

On 15/03/2021 at 17:14, battle of loos said:

 

 

beautiful evocative photo of a saddler to the 12th Lancers (Prince of Wales's Royal).

 

 

On 15/03/2021 at 17:15, FROGSMILE said:

  I agree it looks like the 12th Lancers.  

 

Thank you chaps, that was my suspicion, but I wasn't 100% confident!

 

Unsent postcard. Royal Engineers in P14 Equipment, interesting to see pistol cases worn on the braces along with ammunition pouches. Thoughts on the revolvers? Colt or Smith and Wessons?

 

 

Edited 17 March , 2021 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

An unusual photo Toby, thank you for posting.  I don’t think that they are Webley’s, but I can’t quite discern whether they are Colt’s, or Smith & Wesson’s, as the silhouette of the latter two was quite similar, especially from a distance.

Edited 17 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Toby,

 

Buffalo Bill seated left has crossed somethings over his grenade. Is a high def. close-up possible please?

 

There are quite a few things it is not ........... has not got crossed rifles shape and is a bit small, is not crossed flags, perhaps crossed swords ..... but .I can see no curve.

 

Yet another one of those "very unusual on Other Ranks" wrist watches.

[Toby Brayley]

27 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

An unusual photo Toby, thank you for posting.  I don’t think that they are Webley’s, but I can’t quite discern whether they are Colt’s, or Smith & Wesson’s, as the silhouette of the latter two was quite similar, especially from a distance.

 

 

 I have just rescanned it at 1200DPI, you can certainly see they are colts now! 

19 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Toby,

 

Buffalo Bill seated left has crossed somethings over his grenade. Is a high def. close-up possible please?

 

 

 

 

 

Best I could do, now at 1200DPI, crossed swords??

 

 

 

[Muerrisch]

Crossed swords favourite, thank you.