Postcards

[FROGSMILE]

 

   Yes- I  think so.  I think the normal distribution systems from peacetime France would  have continued. The British experience and collective memory of the Great War may be playing us false- The Brits were the away team so humping and shumping everything was part of the way it was.  For the French, the commodities economy anywhere south of Paris was largely unaffected. There may have been shortages due to either direct rationing (unenforceable effectively for a fruit or veg.) or shortage of transport capacity at times.- the highish prices would seem to be a consequence of this.

 

 

That certainly seems logical when one considers the sheer immensity of France as a European land mass.  It’s at times like this that I wish relevant French historical publications were available in English.  I’d love to get their take on such matters.

[SHJ]

March 30th 1917

Pte. Melville Mellis, son of Mr. and Mrs. W.A. Mellis, town, under date of March 4th, wrote to his mother here as follows from France:

Just a few lines hoping to find you all well, as it leaves me at present. We are back in billets for a few days' rest and a little drill. At present our billet is a big barn built in 1770, but very nearly as good as the day it was built. The walls are built of brick. It has a very steep slate roof with lots of holes in it for ventilation. It is not too bad excepting that a pigeon has its nest right over my head.

The grub we get here is pretty good some days. We lived pretty high yesterday. We got bread, butter, one blood orange, jam, three packages of cigarettes, cheese, tea, and bacon for breakfast, tea for dinner and stew for supper. We have the same for to-morrow, but no bread or orange, we have hard-tack, big biscuits, instead of bread.

I have not seen any Cobourg fellows out here yet. Dick is a long way from where I am. He is with the 4th Division. I am with the -----, I have not learned to speak French yet, as I guess I won't be out here for a hundred years. We do all of our talking by signs. If you want button polish you rub your buttons, or if they have it in a show case, point to it. I guess this will be all for tonight, Love to all.
MELVILLE.

https://www.canadianletters.ca

Edited 20 February , 2021 by SHJ

[SHJ]

Witley April 1st
Dear Tena

This is Sunday night it has been snowing a little nearly all day it has snowed nearly every day this week but it melts as fast as it falls most of the time, yesterday morning there was about an inch of snow on the ground but it was all gone shortly after sunrise. Some of the farmers are sowing grain it don't seem like spring yet we had nearly as warm weather in February.

I expected a week ago to be in France before this but things are going much the same as ever again. Last Saturday night about eight o'clock we got orders to be ready to move any time. The transports were all loaded and everything was ready to move. We went out Sunday expected to move off but it seems to have blown over again the transports were left loaded till Wednesday and the horses were left saddled till Sunday night but I don't think we will be here long yet. There is all sorts as rumours in camp about where we are going but I think our next move will be France.

We go about nine miles out every morning to drill there is about 2000 acres of hills they have out there and they take us out there for training in open warfare. We only stay out there about three hours each day our dinners are brought out in the field kitchen. Friday morning there was a old woman and two men followed us all the way from camp with a cart of oranges and chocolate etc. and when we got there they weren't allowed to sell any of it to us. There was a fellow poisoned a little while ago here and they blamed them for it. They did an awful piece of pleading but it was no good. I am sending you a picture hope it won't scare you. I suppose you have heard about Jared[?] Barclay before this. Well I guess I haven't any more to say just now

As ever
Cliff

 

https://www.canadianletters.ca

[SHJ]

...and just to get back on track.  A postcard sent by my Great Grandfather.  Presumably it was sent inside a letter that unfortunately hasn't survived.

 

My bad French thinks this says' something like: "The Germans are afraid of our 75's, and for good reason; here is what they did to this big house in a few hits"

 

 

and Great Grandad, who was a Sapper in the RE at that time wrote "a small town to right of Vimy Ridge wholly destroyed."

[Muerrisch]

 

• ...........................Such table fare might have been the preference of middling to upper level civil servants, but few soldiers would have experienced it.  To think otherwise perhaps betrays a different life, one led outside of canteen and trench..............................................
•  
• Poor Tommy, forced to eat middle and upper class marmalade!

 

 Extract from War Office Letter WO (S) 18/2/1915

"Plum and Apple Jam"

 

"We are now sending other kinds of jam and some marmalade and at the end of the week the marmalade will probably be coming in very large quantities. I would suggest that base Depots be told to issue anything in the way of jam that they have except plum and apple and to hold that back even if by doing so they may be issuing their newest stocks, as after all jam will keep for a considerable period. At the end of a month or two when the troops are tired of marmalade they will probably greet the plum and apple as n old and welcome friend".

 

Mentioned in the 1st Life Guards war diary 28th Feb 1915. Martin Gillott

[FROGSMILE]

That’s an interesting and to me surprising snippet and I sincerely thank you for seeking it out.  I’m very content to learn new things in this forum, it all adds to the sum of knowledge and spreads deeper understanding of the war and the soldiers themselves.  It remains not at all unreasonable to suggest that few working class men would ordinarily have been able to afford citrus fruit marmalade were it not provided for them by the Army.

Edited 21 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Plum and Apple Jam"

 

"We are now sending other kinds of jam and some marmalade and at the end of the week the marmalade will probably be coming in very large quantities. I would suggest that base Depots be told to issue anything in the way of jam that they have except plum and apple and to hold that back even if by doing so they may be issuing their newest stocks, as after all jam will keep for a considerable period. At the end of a month or two when the troops are tired of marmalade they will probably greet the plum and apple as n old and welcome friend".

 

    Thank you for putting up the link to the canteen catalogue- what a delightful piece of social history.  I had no idea that in 1915 British soldiers might be expected to buy billy cookers for themselves - or sleeping bags.  I do not think I have ever seen a picture of British soldiers with sleeping bags  (That is a cue for one to be posted folks) . The strong emphasis on "titbits"- sauces, relishes and-above all-biscuits shows that Tommy was prepared to endure Army rations provided they could be made a little more varied and tasty.

    The listing of jams fits in well with the quote above-  It seems that Tommy was deprived of the chance to buy plum and apple jam in the these canteens -it is not on the list of choices. Quel surprise.  At least we now know why there was no serious mutiny of the British army in France during the war-  the powers-that=be were well aware that any attempts to inflict more plum and apple on the men would have bad consequences.

[squirrel]

According to one of the Tickler family, apple mixture jams were not popular on the civilian market which probably explains why they were used to fulfil the government contracts for the forces. In Gallipoli there were complaints that the jam was always apricot.

Suggesting that the ordinary Tommy would not have eaten marmalade pre war is a little off the mark...available for about 100 years before WW1.

 

From the History of marmalade website: "The Keillers of Dundee, James and his mother Janet, were very important in the popularisation of marmalade and are thought to have been amongst the first commercial producers of marmalade, and certainly the most well known. For the first half of the 19th century their brand of Dundee Marmalade, available affordably to the working classes, was extremely popular and was the forerunner of today’s best-selling brands".

Edited 21 February , 2021 by squirrel

[Muerrisch]

Squirrel, thank you.

As two matters of minor interest, my ginger cat was called Keiller ............ descendant of the marmalade ship's  cat of HMS Barham, battleship.

 

I believe "marmalade" is a generic word in several countries [Germany, Austria, Switzerland] for "jam". My wife makes the original marmalade from quinces: we have half a dozen shrubs, showing beautiful waxy flowers from February to August, and beautiful fruit ripe in October/ November. Quince marmalade is a good accompaniment with baked meats.

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

As two matters of minor interest, my ginger cat was called Keiller ............ descendant of the marmalade ship's  cat of HMS Barham, battleship.

 

 

    My dear old Mum's first job after leaving school was working in a Keiller's factory in Canning Town (c.1933)  I suspect the names of half the ginger mogs in the land are based on marmalade.  But you remind me of one morsel of information - Until I first took my younger son to HMS Belfast, I was unaware that RN ships were entitled-by size-to a complement of more than one ship's cat-I think Belfast as a County-Class cruiser was entitled to 4 of the feline brutes.  Which makes me wonder, re Barham- what the establishment was for them on one of the Queen Elizabeths?   Just a stray thought....  

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, squirrel said:

According to one of the Tickler family, apple mixture jams were not popular on the civilian market which probably explains why they were used to fulfil the government contracts for the forces. In Gallipoli there were complaints that the jam was always apricot.

Suggesting that the ordinary Tommy would not have eaten marmalade pre war is a little off the mark...available for about 100 years before WW1.

 

From the History of marmalade website: "The Keillers of Dundee, James and his mother Janet, were very important in the popularisation of marmalade and are thought to have been amongst the first commercial producers of marmalade, and certainly the most well known. For the first half of the 19th century their brand of Dundee Marmalade, available affordably to the working classes, was extremely popular and was the forerunner of today’s best-selling brands".

I don’t doubt that lower middle class families could afford marmalade Squirrel, but regardless of Keiller’s blurb I doubt that many working class in 1914 had marmalade on their breakfast table.  Even in the 1920s when my father was at school most working class children had no shoes.  As you have quoted from the web so will I:

 

”For the working class in 1914 life was hard and terrible poverty was common, at the beginning of the 20th century survey’s show that 25% of the population of Britain was living in poverty, the survey’s show that 15% of people were living at subsistence level basically they had just enough money for the very basic’s such as Food, Rent and Fuel. Working Class couldn’t afford “Luxuries” such as newspaper’s and public transport.”

 

“The main cause of extreme poverty was the loss of the main Breadwinner, if the husband became ill [which was common pre-NHS], unemployed, or died it was a disaster, the Wife might get a job, but women were paid much lower wages than men. Surveys also found that poverty tended to go in a cycle, Working class people might live in poverty when they were children but things usually improved when they left home and found a job. Then when they married and had children things would take a turn for the worse, their wages might be enough to support a single man comfortably but not enough to support a wife and children too. Finally when the children grew old enough to work things would improve again only to deteriorate once he was old because an elderly worker might find it hard to find work, except the most low paid kind and be driven into poverty again.”

 

I think that Keiller’s were using middle class rose-tinted spectacles and a very loose definition of working class. Historically the working man’s money was spent on meat (principally for himself) and tobacco.  With many mouths to feed it’s unlikely that it stretched to citrus fruit marmalade.
 

Edited 21 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[squirrel]

Marmalade was not completely unknown to "the working classes"... 5 million served on the Western Front in WW1. If 10% had occasion to encounter marmalade prior to joining the Army then that's 500,000 who were familiar with the product.

 

 

From The Black Country Living Museum website:

 

Standard working-class family budget of 22s 6d per week in 1904, printed in the Cooperative Wholesale Society People’s Year Book, 1922. s d Bread and Flour 3 7 Meat 4 5½ Fish 0 11¾ Bacon 0 11½ 3 4 Eggs 1 0 Fresh milk 1 3¼ Cheese 0 6½ Butter 2 1½ Potatoes 0 11 Vegetables and fruit 0 11 Currants and raisins 0 2¾ Rice, tapioca, oatmeal 0 6 Tea 0 1½ Coffee and cocoa 0 3¾ Sugar 0 11 Jam, marmalade, treacle 0 6½ Pickles and condiments 0 3¼ Other items 2 10¼ Total 22 6 Ready-Reckoner (amounts have been rounded) 

 

Third-class dining saloon Titanic 1912

In the third-class dining saloon, located in the Middle (F) deck, diners sat at long tables that could seat 20. They hung their hats, coats, and scarves on hooks attached to the walls. The saloon was large and spare. It could seat 473, which means that two seatings were necessary to accommodate all 710 passengers in third class.

The food was hardy and wholesome. Here’s the fare served in the third-class dining saloon on April 14, 1912:

• Breakfast: Oatmeal porridge and milk; vegetable stew; fried tripe and onions; bread and butter; marmalade; Swedish bread; tea; coffee

• Lunch: Bouillon soup; roast beef and brown gravy; green beans, boiled; potatoes; cabin biscuits; bread; prunes and rice

• Dinner: Rabbit pie; baked potatoes; bread and butter; rhubarb and ginger jam; Swedish bread; tea

ASHBURTON GUARDIAN, VOLUME XXXIII, ISSUE 8436, 12 DECEMBER 1912, PAGE 3

Edited 21 February , 2021 by squirrel
comment

[FROGSMILE]

I think it depends on where you get your information.  The following are just two extracts from a thesis on diet during WW1.  Marmalade is briefly mentioned alongside Jam, albeit without making clear whether it is made from citrus fruits, or other fruit produce flavoured with rind and spices. Nevertheless, the whole article on diet is comprehensive and illuminating :

 

A later study [than 1904 that Squirrel quotes above] was done which revisited the original survey returns, and was able to separate the working class into more distinct groups: skilled, semiskilled, and unskilled laborers. Regardless of these differences for this instance, it is accurate to say that by July of 1914 the cost to purchase the same quantities and types of food listed in Appendix B, Figure 1 had increased to 25s, and only rose for the duration of the war, which can be seen in Appendix B, Figure 2.29
Bread was the staple for working class diets, and attaining and buying sufficient quantities of flour was the primary concern of mothers, who were often the ones responsible for procuring food for their families. As is seen in the budget distribution in Appendix B, Figure 3, bread and flour were by far the most plentiful substance consumed by laborers of all skill-levels. In general, the lower one’s socioeconomic status, the more bread one ate, and less of everything else. Grains were cheap and filling, obtained abroad, and kept well, all of which facilitated their dominance in the diet of the common population. 
 

Meat and dairy were also available for the working class, but their consumption was heavily restricted, and the distribution of these more costly foodstuffs was almost entirely limited to the father or other working males in the household. It is important to note the price of meat and dairy in Appendix B, Figure 1. Meat as its own category consumed over a quarter of food budgets, and if one lumps all dairy products together, they comprise about one-fifth of a family’s food spending. Analyzing how much these two food categories (which were the most nutritious foods available) were consumed by individuals of the working-class is problematic, primarily because of the unequal distribution of food within the household. Nearly half of weekly food spending was budgeted specifically for meat and dairy products, but it is likely that the majority of these goods were given to the working male of the house in order to sustain him while working long hours in labor intensive industries.36 Eggs were sometimes added to working men’s diets as an additional source of protein and were at least somewhat available, as shops were often looking for individuals to buy off their broken or old eggs.37

 

The entire thesis can be read here and makes for interesting reading in the context of different agricultural and foodstuff policies and wherewithal between Britain and Germany: https://digitalcommons.csbsju.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1081&context=honors_theses

I stand by my point regarding the likelihood of men of the working classes having citrus fruit marmalade (to be clear, Seville orange, lime or lemon) on his breakfast table being remote.

Edited 21 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Guest]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

on his breakfast table

 

    As indeed his chances of having a breakfast table were even more remote 

[FROGSMILE]

 

    As indeed his chances of having a breakfast table were even more remote 

Yes it’s strange, and in truth I’d toyed with the idea of mentioning that exact point too, but as I was concerned it would run the risk of inadvertently downplaying the key point I decided against it.  I have been amazed by how many people do not seem to get the extent of deprivation among the working classes at the turn of the century and the decade after.  The idea that e.g. dockers, labourers, miners, and road and rail gangers sat down to pots of Kieller’s or Frank Cooper’s at a time when their children made sandwiches from the sugar saturated tea leaves of their father’s morning cuppa, would be funny were it not so risible.  Most urban working class boys did not even get their first piece of meat (as opposed to offal) until the day marking their first wage packet as a rite of passage.

[sdparker]

I think the availability of oranges mentioned above, may be down to history. 

Several years ago, I attended a tourism exposition in Lille, and a troupe of performers paraded through the exhibition hall

wearing very unusual costumes. They were wearing white shirts and trousers, with rounded orange coloured tops, and tall

headresses with ostrich feathers- and were giving out oranges!

If I remember rightly, the story was about Flanders being Protestant and supporters of William of Orange

Maybe someone can google this ancient custom

Regards

Geoff

[squirrel]

39 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes it’s strange, but in truth I’d toyed with the idea of mentioning that exact point too, but as I was concerned it would run the risk of inadvertently downplaying the key point I decided against it.  I have been amazed by how many people do not seem to get the extent of deprivation among the working classes at the turn of the century and the decade after.

I "get the extent" of deprivation and that it continued well beyond the 1920's.

My father was born in 1912 and suffered from Rickets. Grandfather had a responsible job, he was Superintendent of Horse Transport for the Great Western Railway at the Paddington depot and well paid for those times. Eight children, one of whom died in infancy and one early teens from Meningitis so I am well aware of what the times were like.

Even when I was at primary school some of us had hand me down clothes and school dinners were what kept us well nourished.

I just find that the sweeping statement that the "working class" were unaware of what marmalade was when the main meal for some was bread and jam or similar jars somewhat.

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, squirrel said:

I "get the extent" of deprivation and that it continued well beyond the 1920's.

My father was born in 1912 and suffered from Rickets. Grandfather had a responsible job, he was Superintendent of Horse Transport for the Great Western Railway at the Paddington depot and well paid for those times. Eight children, one of whom died in infancy and one early teens from Meningitis so I am well aware of what the times were like.

Even when I was at primary school some of us had hand me down clothes and school dinners were what kept us well nourished.

I just find that the sweeping statement that the "working class" were unaware of what marmalade was when the main meal for some was bread and jam or similar jars somewhat.

I don’t think I said they didn’t know what marmalade was did I?  Just that they were unlikely to have experienced it on their table.  The family circumstances you outlined, of a responsible, regularly paid job were privileged by comparison, and a superintendent of horse transport at a regional railway company would be considered lower middle class, far away from the average working class man.  I don’t know if you’re familiar with the poverty maps created by the Salvation Army leader Booth, but if you aren’t I suggest you scrutinise them to get a more full perspective.

Edited 21 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I don’t doubt that lower middle class families could afford marmalade Squirrel, but regardless of Keiller’s blurb I doubt that many working class in 1914 had marmalade on their breakfast table.  Even in the 1920s when my father was at school most working class children had no shoes.  As you have quoted from the web so will I:

 

”For the working class in 1914 life was hard and terrible poverty was common, at the beginning of the 20th century survey’s show that 25% of the population of Britain was living in poverty, the survey’s show that 15% of people were living at subsistence level basically they had just enough money for the very basic’s such as Food, Rent and Fuel. Working Class couldn’t afford “Luxuries” such as newspaper’s and public transport.”

 

“The main cause of extreme poverty was the loss of the main Breadwinner, if the husband became ill [which was common pre-NHS], unemployed, or died it was a disaster, the Wife might get a job, but women were paid much lower wages than men. Surveys also found that poverty tended to go in a cycle, Working class people might live in poverty when they were children but things usually improved when they left home and found a job. Then when they married and had children things would take a turn for the worse, their wages might be enough to support a single man comfortably but not enough to support a wife and children too. Finally when the children grew old enough to work things would improve again only to deteriorate once he was old because an elderly worker might find it hard to find work, except the most low paid kind and be driven into poverty again.”

 

I think that Keiller’s were using middle class rose-tinted spectacles and a very loose definition of working class. Historically the working man’s money was spent on meat (principally for himself) and tobacco.  With many mouths to feed it’s unlikely that it stretched to citrus fruit marmalade.
 

Speaking as the tenth of my parents twelve offspring I know what it's like going without marmalade but that was because the "Old Man" wouldn't let us have any. The greedy old git kept it all for himself but now I begin to see why!!. As a former Durham miner he would have known all about hardship just like most of his mates would have.   Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Speaking as the tenth of my parents twelve offspring I know what it's like going without marmalade but that was because the "Old Man" wouldn't let us have any. The greedy old git kept it all for himself but now I begin to see why!!. As a former Durham miner he would have known all about hardship just like most of his mates would have.   Pete.

Yes Pete, I’ve frequently found during research a very common mention that the head of the family invariably received the lion’s share, not least because he usually had hard physical labour to undergo to earn the family wage.  There was apparently a kind of alpha male pecking order and he got the best (sometimes all) meat, the extra sugar and the best of all else, plus his tobacco.  The remainder was divided among wife and children.  I’m sure there were some men more thoughtful and kindly but the recorded accounts seem fairly consistent, so what you describe chimes with that. 

Edited 21 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[kenf48]

This thread is ‘postcards’ it has become one of the mainstays of the GWF.  Can we please stay on topic.

[Muerrisch]

24 minutes ago, squirrel said:

I "get the extent" of deprivation and that it continued well beyond the 1920's.

My father was born in 1912 and suffered from Rickets. Grandfather had a responsible job, he was Superintendent of Horse Transport for the Great Western Railway at the Paddington depot and well paid for those times. Eight children, one of whom died in infancy and one early teens from Meningitis so I am well aware of what the times were like.

Even when I was at primary school some of us had hand me down clothes and school dinners were what kept us well nourished.

I just find that the sweeping statement that the "working class" were unaware of what marmalade was when the main meal for some was bread and jam or similar jars somewhat.

 

What nobody has addressed is the contrast between urban and country "working class" life. In the main, the farm labourers and their families had a hard life but access to food in a variety of ways, including "the pig", chicken, a vegetable garden and occasional handouts from the farmer and the squire and the church. My grandfather born 1879 in Yapton Sussex had about six brothers. His father was the first "farm engine" driver in the area, and the boys all went into engineering /smithing/ metalwork/driving jobs. I have seen their tiny cottage, with large garden, hard by the church where the family played in the wind band [no organ]. These men may not have had much marmalade, but they had an adequate diet and were all fit for war. Grandpa was ASC MT, and an emigre brother was an infantryman in Princess Pats LI.

My grandmothers side were East Sussex: again a large family, lots of girls, who "went into service" so any poverty was ameliorated by their small incomes. Unlike some on this Forum I am old enough to have known the 1914-18 generation well [particularly as my father was busy sorting out Hitler, so grandpa was a stand-in dad]. Yes, times were hard but I do not buy the "no marmalade, no oranges" line. Both sides of the family were respectable lower class: a suit for Sundays and funerals, a crease in their trousers, a brush for shoes even if down-at-heel.

[squirrel]

6 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

This thread is ‘postcards’ it has become one of the mainstays of the GWF.  Can we please stay on topic.

Wilco.

[Ipcress]

What a couple of pages !!!  

 

I think i'm going to put these two fellas with the postcard of the other chap because they seem to make a movie style trio - Tom, Dick and Harry ( the spectacled soldier's card is signed by a Harry ) The other is Essex Regiment but could be Edward VIII's double.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

The bespectacled officer appears to be Rifle Brigade on my phone screen, but a close up of the cap badge might confirm.  What do you think Pete?@CorporalPunishment