Postcards

[FROGSMILE]

Ticklers jam was certainly obiquitous, but I’m not sure if they provided marmalade for the troops?  More of an officers’ thing I should have thought.

Edited 19 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

I recall reading sometime ago that the OR's received Plum & Apple, & they hated it!

[Gardenerbill]

1 hour ago, RNCVR said:

I recall reading sometime ago that the OR's received Plum & Apple, & they hated it!

I thought the ASC stole it all.😁

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, RNCVR said:

I recall reading sometime ago that the OR's received Plum & Apple, & they hated it!

Yes that’s right, and it was made by Tickler’s.  The idea that they would get produce from expensive and exotic Oranges is for the birds.

Edited 19 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

SEE BELOW FOR CORRECTION. PRICE BELIEVED TO BE 1.00 FRENCH FRANCS

 

Squirrel, 1lb. of marmalade, strawberry, raspberry or blackcurrant jam  was the same price in the Expeditionary Forces Canteen as a pack of playing cards @ £1 and well within reach of a small team of soldiers who shared a fire, shelter and a niche in a trench. In the line.  Four men would accumulate considerable credit. Prices as at 2nd. January 1916.

 

Your £1 would also purchase a pipe, or an ounce of Bovril, or an enamel mug, or two bars of soap and many other items.

 

Unlike our allies the French, and our enemies the Germans, the Tommy did not need to worry overmuch about making substantial allotments for his family, the government was reasonably generous. Some historians believe this accounts for the sustained morale of the Tommy compared with others: he had fewer financial worries about back home. He could afford marmalade, a drink and an omelette.

 

Edited 20 February , 2021 by Muerrisch

[FROGSMILE]

That’s very interesting detail, I’m surprised that the items you mentioned were as expensive as £1.  Like you I’ve read the well founded research suggesting that British soldiers continued to fight with largely good morale principally because they knew their families left behind were supported.  Strangely I’ve not yet found a single mention of marmalade in soldier’s personal accounts, but plenty concerning plum and apple, Maconachie’s stew, fresh bread, petrol tainted tea, and locally sourced egg and chips. 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 Strangely I’ve not yet found a single mention of marmalade in soldier’s personal accounts, but plenty concerning plum and apple, Maconachie’s stew, fresh bread, petrol tainted tea, and locally sourced egg and chips. 

 

      Imported soft fruits were a luxury during the Great War-as indeed in the sequel ("Yes, we have no bananas"). Plums and apples were homegrown-  Imported oranges took up shipping space-the more so as most oranges then came from the Mediterranean.  In the second war there was a splendid and moving example- I forget the name of the warship but the one "twinned" with,I think, Southend on Sea did one of those small things that make History come alive- Coming back to the UK from North Africa, the crew used ship's funds to buy as many oranges as they could locally-so that the children of Southend could have a treat.  History and the human condition are about the little things that slip by almost unnoticed, the doings of the great and the good pale away.

    Maconachies could fill a  book in itself (Probably already has).  It is specifically mentioned as the one "treat" got by 1/6th Essex at Gallipoli by the regimental historian John Burrows. I understand opinions as to its utlility may have been somewhat different on the Western Front.

    As a sideline-and for those who travel "sur le continong", my esrtwhile French father-in-law used to maintain that one consequence of the Great War was chips and beer.  This was up by the Belgian border around Sedan when it was common for the French to drive into Belgium on a Sunday afternoon (Philippeville and Bouillon), usually to get cheaper petrol. A box of frites and eggs was almost mandatory and one did notice that Whitbread had a strong presence in southern Belgium. He maintained that the Whitbread presence was a consequence  of the Great War -and that frites were popular because both potatoes and eggs could be grown "off ration" by French peasants-and that is what the locals could make some money with when feeding Tommies when they came back behind the lines

[Muerrisch]

8 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Squirrel, 1lb. of marmalade, strawberry, raspberry or blackcurrant jam  was the same price in the Expeditionary Forces Canteen as a pack of playing cards @ £1 and well within reach of a small team of soldiers who shared a fire, shelter and a niche in a trench. In the line.  Four men would accumulate considerable credit. Prices as at 2nd. January 1916.

 

Your £1 would also purchase a pipe, or an ounce of Bovril, or an enamel mug, or two bars of soap and many other items.

 

Unlike our allies the French, and our enemies the Germans, the Tommy did not need to worry overmuch about making substantial allotments for his family, the government was reasonably generous. Some historians believe this accounts for the sustained morale of the Tommy compared with others: he had fewer financial worries about back home. He could afford marmalade, a drink and an omelette.

 

 

CORRECTION

The Expeditionary Force Canteen price list from which I quoted is rather remiss because it does not state units of currency. My reading of £1 was derived from 1.00 with no units. On reflection it is much more likely to be in Francs, as I believe the soldiers were paid in francs. This makes the items very much cheaper.

I quote from an old post by Chris Henschke:

 

1. The official rate was fixed monthly.

2. The rate of exchange was promulgated at the end of the month in General Routine Orders for the next month, by authority of War Office Telegrams.

For example, the rate of exchange for issues of cash to the troops of the Expeditionary Force was fixed at the rate of 5 francs = three shillings and seven pence for the month of JULY, 1916, and during that month all transactions which required conversion were adjusted at that rate. This was promulgated on June 30th, 1916.

3. In October and November, 1917 the exchange rate was fixed at the rate of 5 francs = three shillings and eight pence.

4. Expeditionary Force Canteens, Y.M.C.As., Divisional, Brigade, and Regimental Canteens, Recreation Rooms, Soldiers' Rooms, and other institutes gave the official rate of exchange for English currency tendered by soldiers. Any money exchanged in this way by institutes was purchased at the official rate by any Field Cashier.

Chris Henschke

[Alan24]

There's some interesting food stuffs shown in this postcard on the thread which I started some years ago.

 

[FROGSMILE]

 

      Imported soft fruits were a luxury during the Great War-as indeed in the sequel ("Yes, we have no bananas"). Plums and apples were homegrown-  Imported oranges took up shipping space-the more so as most oranges then came from the Mediterranean.  In the second war there was a splendid and moving example- I forget the name of the warship but the one "twinned" with,I think, Southend on Sea did one of those small things that make History come alive- Coming back to the UK from North Africa, the crew used ship's funds to buy as many oranges as they could locally-so that the children of Southend could have a treat.  History and the human condition are about the little things that slip by almost unnoticed, the doings of the great and the good pale away.

    Maconachies could fill a  book in itself (Probably already has).  It is specifically mentioned as the one "treat" got by 1/6th Essex at Gallipoli by the regimental historian John Burrows. I understand opinions as to its utlility may have been somewhat different on the Western Front.

    As a sideline-and for those who travel "sur le continong", my esrtwhile French father-in-law used to maintain that one consequence of the Great War was chips and beer.  This was up by the Belgian border around Sedan when it was common for the French to drive into Belgium on a Sunday afternoon (Philippeville and Bouillon), usually to get cheaper petrol. A box of frites and eggs was almost mandatory and one did notice that Whitbread had a strong presence in southern Belgium. He maintained that the Whitbread presence was a consequence  of the Great War -and that frites were popular because both potatoes and eggs could be grown "off ration" by French peasants-and that is what the locals could make some money with when feeding Tommies when they came back behind the lines

What you say chimes entirely with the situation that I had always understood to be the case.  In particular Britain’s position as apparently being the only one of the principal belligerent nations to be not self sufficient in food, as indeed was the case during WW2 (and today for that matter).  Exotic fruits like oranges and bananas simply weren’t generally available, and as I understand it marmalade was expensive (although probably not £1 per 1LB given a soldier’s daily pay rate).  The anecdotal evidence that you quoted matches my own study over the years and in particular I recall that whereas officers were likely to spend money on hampers from Fortnum and Mason containing such luxuries as pate, foi gras and marmalade, Tommy Atkins would spend his hard earned money on tobacco rather than club together to buy marmalade.  Such table fare might have been the preference of middling to upper level civil servants, but few soldiers would have experienced it.  To think otherwise perhaps betrays a different life, one led outside of canteen and trench.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

What you say chimes entirely with the situation that I had always understood to be the case.  In particular Britain’s position as apparently being the only one of the principal belligerent nations to be not self sufficient in food, as indeed was the case during WW2 (and today for that matter).  Exotic fruits like oranges and bananas simply weren’t generally available, and as I understand it marmalade was expensive (although probably not £1 per 1LB given a soldier’s daily pay rate).  The anecdotal evidence that you quoted matches my own study over the years and in particular I recall that whereas officers were likely to spend money on hampers from Fortnum and Masons containing such luxuries as pate, foi gras and marmalade, Tommy Atkins would spend his hard earned money on tobacco rather than club together to buy marmalade.  Such table fare might have been the preference of middling to upper level civil servants, but few soldiers would have experienced it.  To think otherwise perhaps betrays a different life.

 

    I think there is an area of common interest here that may be worth a thread on it's own simply to act as a meeting place for anecdote and bits of evidence.  A simple but basic proposition is that for most of the British army in France and Flanders for most of the Great War is that men may have been exposed to danger (the old politeness of "field service conditions") but life was a day to day struggle on small things -clean clothes, warmth and food.  

    Yes, there are plenty of bits and pieces of evidence for,say, such matters as candle burning along seams to burn of lice and their eggs. I suspect some battalions (or companies) fared better if they had men who could provide some of these functions- such as a haircut or boot repair. And a Colonel or a Captain astute  enough to draw down on the peacetime trades of his men that could be of use.,This has been mentioned on GWF before. I have a local casualty who was a shoemaker in peacetime and popular with his platoon in France for doing his peacetime job for his mates. The late entertainer Roy Castle used to say that his father taught him rudimentary haircutting as, when on National Service, there was always a demand for haircuts to earn an extra sixpence a go.

   Food?   That's the biggie. Rations is one thing that is well-covered but what could be got off-ration?  It seems to me that there is some mileage in having a look-see at this. Yes, the estaminets behind the lines is a first clue.  Then what could be bought off ration behind the lines from the French or Belgians. 

     Oranges may seem a daft place to start but they offer a contrast-say, with corned beef.   Look at the matter say from the point of view of the economic planners at the Ministry of Food or the shipping planners at the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Shipping. Oranges?  Too much shipping space- thus scarce.  Bully beef?  Much more efficient to have hoof converted to tin in Fray Bentos and the like- and the consequent saving on shipping space through freeing-up the use of cattle boats (Frequently mentioned as being a grumble when British soldiery were transported -but look behind it as to WHY that shipping space was available. )   Could, for instance, oranges be got  behind the lines? It is a Mediterranean fruit and one must speculate whether it could have been on open sale having come in through Marseilles and the like. 

    The biggest question is WHAT came through from families or the various "comforts funds" organised in the UK. We seem to have little knowledge of this other than tobacco was much in favour- perhaps this merely confirmation as to its addictive powers during the great Edwardian surge in tobacco usage -ie That the letters asking for it are from soldiers who were "cold turkey".  I wish I could remember where I read it long ago-one man writing home to ask for Worcester Sauce. 

 ( I seem to remember that Fortnums did do special hampers for France?  Is this a false memory?)

[FROGSMILE]

 

    I think there is an area of common interest here that may be worth a thread on it's own simply to act as a meeting place for anecdote and bits of evidence.  A simple but basic proposition is that for most of the British army in France and Flanders for most of the Great War is that men may have been exposed to danger (the old politeness of "field service conditions") but life was a day to day struggle on small things -clean clothes, warmth and food.  

    Yes, there are plenty of bits and pieces of evidence for,say, such matters as candle burning along seams to burn of lice and their eggs. I suspect some battalions (or companies) fared better if they had men who could provide some of these functions- such as a haircut or boot repair. And a Colonel or a Captain astute  enough to draw down on the peacetime trades of his men that could be of use.,This has been mentioned on GWF before. I have a local casualty who was a shoemaker in peacetime and popular with his platoon in France for doing his peacetime job for his mates. The late entertainer Roy Castle used to say that his father taught him rudimentary haircutting as, when on National Service, there was always a demand for haircuts to earn an extra sixpence a go.

   Food?   That's the biggie. Rations is one thing that is well-covered but what could be got off-ration?  It seems to me that there is some mileage in having a look-see at this. Yes, the estaminets behind the lines is a first clue.  Then what could be bought off ration behind the lines from the French or Belgians. 

     Oranges may seem a daft place to start but they offer a contrast-say, with corned beef.   Look at the matter say from the point of view of the economic planners at the Ministry of Food or the shipping planners at the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Shipping. Oranges?  Too much shipping space- thus scarce.  Bully beef?  Much more efficient to have hoof converted to tin in Fray Bentos and the like- and the consequent saving on shipping space through freeing-up the use of cattle boats (Frequently mentioned as being a grumble when British soldiery were transported -but look behind it as to WHY that shipping space was available. )   Could, for instance, oranges be got  behind the lines? It is a Mediterranean fruit and one must speculate whether it could have been on open sale having come in through Marseilles and the like. 

    The biggest question is WHAT came through from families or the various "comforts funds" organised in the UK. We seem to have little knowledge of this other than tobacco was much in favour- perhaps this merely confirmation as to its addictive powers during the great Edwardian surge in tobacco usage -ie That the letters asking for it are from soldiers who were "cold turkey".  I wish I could remember where I read it long ago-one man writing home to ask for Worcester Sauce. 

 ( I seem to remember that Fortnums did do special hampers for France?  Is this a false memory?)

Your description of what was in effect a micro economy and self sufficient support network was certainly a feature of military life at that time (and subsequently), and was given some degree of structure by sub-unit (company, battery, squadron, etc.) quarter-master-sergeants.  This was in addition to what could be obtained locally when soldiers were out of the line and granted a local-pass.  The QMS were responsible for getting ammunition, food, water, and tobacco up to their men when in the line, but also often maintained a small store of ancillary goods for sale when out on rest.  This was encouraged by company commanders because profits were ploughed into a company fund that could be used for the ‘good and benefit’ of his soldiers.  None of that could compete with the scale obtainable from large canteens in the rear areas, but of course opportunity to get to them was largely fleeting and so local facility was equally important.  As for perishable fruits, I’m sure that you’re right when it came to orchard fruits like apples and plums, but oranges from the Med were I think much less likely to get forward given the competing pressures on road and rail infrastructure not just for military purposes, but also to sustain whatever civilian population still existed, albeit that they largely had to fend for themselves from local resources.  Accounts of domestic poultry, cows and goats that provided eggs and cheese abound, and potatoes were easily grown in cottage gardens where small villages had managed to survive.  At best I imagine that officers on short breaks in places like Paris or Amiens might see an orange or two, but I believe it would have been extremely rare for ordinary troops to do so.

[SHJ]

An extract from the terrific Canadian letters & images project site.. I typed "oranges" into the search and there were loads of replies.  Many more with "food".

 

France..Lens
June 17, 1917

Dear Dad and Mom:

Thanks for letters and parcels of late. I think all the parcels arrive these days all right. The last one contained choc., chewing gum, etc.

The 6th brigade had a boxing contest yesterday and I entered at 133 lbs., had a scrap and won the
lightweight championship of the brigade. A few days before we had battalion sports. I had two bouts, won one and tied in the other. That left two of us for brigade sports. The other fellow however did not enter so I won. In a few days I have some more bouts for the divisional championship. After the brigade sports General (censored) of the 6th brigade gave out the prizes and shook hands with all the winners. My prize was fifteen francs. I'd a few days previously received another fifteen francs for the Batt sports. As this is Sunday Dug and I are writing home like good boys should.

The weather still continues fine and the French have started cutting their crops. Jake crops at that. The country-side looks like one big field. Out in the part of France there are very few fences. The neighbours fields lie side by side for miles without an intervening fence. If cattle are turned out there are always boys or girls to keep them on their proper ground. Also in a radius of five miles there are nearly always four or five villages to be found with the houses with red tiles roofs and, in a good many cases mud walls.

Everywhere the troops are -behind the line- your find numerous women and kids selling oranges and etc. Not only that but actually soaking you tuppence ha'penny per orange - as much as you pay in B.C. the robbers.

With very best love,

I am your loving son, Sid

(Sydney Winterbottom)

[SHJ]

On 12/02/2021 at 19:36, Polar Bear said:

 

Well there's quite a lot on someone who I assume is his son here:

 

http://www.janetandrichardsgenealogy.co.uk/Capt H D Buchanan-Dunlop.html

 

Also here (with a link to the Father):

 

https://www.geni.com/people/Lt-Col-Archibald-Buchanan-Dunlop-OBE/6000000069544689246

 

There's more floating around the internet on the son but that gives the basics.

 

Hope that helps.

 

P

Thanks Polar Bear!

[Muerrisch]

 1 will scan the complete Expeditionary Force Canteen price list for 1916.

The price of marmalde equated to half a private soldiers basic daily pay  if he wanted it. If not he could use it for Blutac, which use is documented.

 

To avoid further drift anyone seeking can PM for price list.

[FROGSMILE]

49 minutes ago, SHJ said:

An extract from the terrific Canadian letters & images project site.. I typed "oranges" into the search and there were loads of replies.  Many more with "food".

 

France..Lens
June 17, 1917

Dear Dad and Mom:

Thanks for letters and parcels of late. I think all the parcels arrive these days all right. The last one contained choc., chewing gum, etc.

The 6th brigade had a boxing contest yesterday and I entered at 133 lbs., had a scrap and won the
lightweight championship of the brigade. A few days before we had battalion sports. I had two bouts, won one and tied in the other. That left two of us for brigade sports. The other fellow however did not enter so I won. In a few days I have some more bouts for the divisional championship. After the brigade sports General (censored) of the 6th brigade gave out the prizes and shook hands with all the winners. My prize was fifteen francs. I'd a few days previously received another fifteen francs for the Batt sports. As this is Sunday Dug and I are writing home like good boys should.

The weather still continues fine and the French have started cutting their crops. Jake crops at that. The country-side looks like one big field. Out in the part of France there are very few fences. The neighbours fields lie side by side for miles without an intervening fence. If cattle are turned out there are always boys or girls to keep them on their proper ground. Also in a radius of five miles there are nearly always four or five villages to be found with the houses with red tiles roofs and, in a good many cases mud walls.

Everywhere the troops are -behind the line- your find numerous women and kids selling oranges and etc. Not only that but actually soaking you tuppence ha'penny per orange - as much as you pay in B.C. the robbers.

With very best love,

I am your loving son, Sid

(Sydney Winterbottom)

Thank you for posting that SHJ, it’s the first account that I’ve ever read mentioning oranges.  I’m not familiar with the geography around Lens and wonder where the oranges mentioned came from.  Either way I accept with great surprise that this soldier experienced them for sale even if he did see them as expensive.

 

Something that struck me is how the soldier from British Columbia was immediately familiar with oranges as a treat well known to him from home, something that would have been far from the case when it came to the average British Tommy.  I imagine that the sellers in the rear area around Lens did very well from sales to the Canadian soldiers.

Edited 20 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[SHJ]

No probs frogsmile!  I saw quite a few letters mentioning fruit parcels or talking about getting fruit from the locals.  There are some accounts from WW2 and one was interesting as it recommended that oranges from home be sent to him "waxed" - presumably because it preserved them better.

[RNCVR]

 

Something that struck me is how the soldier from British Columbia was immediately familiar with oranges as a treat well known to him from home, something that would have been far from the case when it came to the average British Tommy.  I imagine that the sellers in the rear area around Lens did very well from sales to the Canadian soldiers.

 

If the Canadian soldier was from the Okanagan Valley part of British Columbia, he would have know about & eaten oranges in season.

Probably the only place in Canada where oranges grow wild & cultivated. 

 

Edited 20 February , 2021 by RNCVR

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

 

Something that struck me is how the soldier from British Columbia was immediately familiar with oranges as a treat well known to him from home, something that would have been far from the case when it came to the average British Tommy.  I imagine that the sellers in the rear area around Lens did very well from sales to the Canadian soldiers.

 

If the Canadian soldier was from the Okanagan Valley part of British Columbia, he would have know about & eaten oranges in season.

Probably the only place in Canada where oranges grow wild & cultivated. 

 

Thanks Bryan, that’s interesting geographical detail to know.  I’m intrigued now to know how oranges came to be available around Lens, in France, in the sense whether they grew their naturally or were imported from regions closer to the Mediterranean.  Perhaps there was a micro climate around there.  It would be interesting to know and understand the circumstances, as to the British it was still quite an exotic fruit and wholly reliant on imports.  I still recall eating my first one, just a few years after WW2 rationing ended, which for economic reasons had been extended into the 1950s.

Edited 20 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

This article was first published in the December 2009 issue of BBC History Magazine 

 

On the morning of Saturday 1 July 1916, Siegfried Sassoon sat on Crawley Ridge and watched the attack on Fricourt by the 10th West Yorks and 7th Green Howards taking place below, a scene he described as “a sunlit picture of Hell”. As he noted the noise and colour of the explosions, the men filing through the trenches in preparation for going “over the top”, he also added: “Have just eaten my last orange.” It is a subject to which he returned a few days later when he bemoaned the fact that his batman (personal servant), Private Flook, was not available to source further oranges because he had been called up to help carry ammunition boxes forward. 

 

Muerrisch comment: if Flook could buy oranges for Sassoon, he could  in theory buy them for himself.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Perhaps there was a micro climate around there

 

   In my humble experience, Lens does have a micro-climate- It is even more wet, miserable and cold than pretty much everywhere else south of Calais.

[FROGSMILE]

 

   In my humble experience, Lens does have a micro-climate- It is even more wet, miserable and cold than pretty much everywhere else south of Calais.

Implying Orange imports then?

[Muerrisch]

On 20/02/2021 at 10:37, Muerrisch said:

GUEST 1 will scan the complete Expeditionary Force Canteen price list for 1916.

The price of marmalde equated to half a private soldiers basic daily pay  if he wanted it. If not he could use it for Blutac, which use is documented.

 

To avoid further drift anyone seeking can PM for price list.

 

Even better, Toby Brayley solved the price list:

 

Posted 13 October , 2018

here is a link to the complete downloadable list. Via my googledrive. 

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RvdZQcp7XRXbaDDZslMQZ03rR-wzwuZl

[FROGSMILE]

 

   In my humble experience, Lens does have a micro-climate- It is even more wet, miserable and cold than pretty much everywhere else south of Calais.

That makes it all the more intriguing that the locals were selling oranges.  It makes it seem more like an organised commercial concern, albeit at local level if the produce was not grown locally.  Entrepreneurship perhaps...

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Implying Orange imports then?

 

   Yes- I  think so.  I think the normal distribution systems from peacetime France would  have continued. The British experience and collective memory of the Great War may be playing us false- The Brits were the away team so humping and shumping everything was part of the way it was.  For the French, the commodities economy anywhere south of Paris was largely unaffected. There may have been shortages due to either direct rationing (unenforceable effectively for a fruit or veg.) or shortage of transport capacity at times.- the highish prices would seem to be a consequence of this.