FROGSMILE Posted 27 June , 2020 Share Posted 27 June , 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dragoon said: I do believe the three WO's are RHA. The RSM, and two Battery Sergeant Majors either side. Their helmets are shown probably to show two separate Battery's by the Helmet flash. I have a photo of my Great Grandfather in Amritsar India in 1919, he's a BSM and wears no gun badge with his rank crown. I don't think they are cavalry due to the lack of shoulder chains, and I know the cavalry loved their shoulder chains, especially on this form of dress. Just my thoughts on this wonderful photo. Chris It’s funny you should say that Chris, as during a trip to and from my local outdoor market I’d been mulling this very matter over in my mind because of the surveyor, and some other aspects, and I’d genuinely reached the exact same conclusion, but you have beaten me to it. It’s a great spot by you. The WOII badge was relatively new (1915) and I don’t think that gun badges were originally worn with them (as you’ve rightly pointed out). The same badge had previously been worn by sergeant majors of regiment (cavalry), brigade (horsed artillery) and battalion (infantry & garrison artillery), also without any other arm-badge, including the gun. When the WOI grades adopted the new coat of arms badge, that too had no additional badges. Ergo it seems positive that at the time of the photo no warrant officers wore special-to-arm badges. It seems then that they are indeed all RHA, but perhaps different Troops given the pagri flashes and the presence of a (ostensibly) Brigade Sergeant Major. There cannot have been that many stations that were home to a Brigade of RHA, so I’m thinking that that might assist us in determining the location. Edited 27 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted 27 June , 2020 Share Posted 27 June , 2020 Do you know anyone on the badge forum who is a helmet flash expert? 51 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: It’s funny you should say that Chris, as during a trip to and from my local outdoor market I’d been mulling this very matter over in my mind because of the surveyor, and some other aspects, and I’d genuinely reached the exact same conclusion, but you have beaten me to it. It’s a great spot by you. The WOII badge was relatively new (1915) and I don’t think that gun badges were originally worn with them (as you’ve rightly pointed out). The same badge had previously been worn by sergeant majors of regiment (cavalry), brigade (horsed artillery) and battalion (infantry & garrison artillery), also without any other arm-badge, including the gun. When the WOI grades adopted the new coat of arms badge, that too had no additional badges. Ergo it seems positive that at the time of the photo no warrant officers wore special-to-arm badges. It seems then that they are indeed all RHA, but perhaps different Troops given the pagri flashes and the presence of a (ostensibly) Brigade Sergeant Major. There cannot have been that many stations that were home to a Brigade of RHA, so I’m thinking that that might assist us in determining the location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 27 June , 2020 Share Posted 27 June , 2020 I quote below to support my disagreement regarding special-to-service badges supplementing the rank royal arms or crown. They were certainly worn. Indeed the RA were the very first to adopt crown and gun in 1868 or so. It is possible that the additional badges were occasionally not worn in KD, with the laundering complications. Even there we have plenty of photos of WOs in KD in the Great War and later wearing the full Monty. Sorry the paste is rather small ... it survives pasting into Word OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 27 June , 2020 Share Posted 27 June , 2020 had a run on sun helmets with flashes recently, time to post them, first up is DORSET dated 1 6 17 on the reverse in ???? India Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted 27 June , 2020 Share Posted 27 June , 2020 Nice👍🏻 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 27 June , 2020 Share Posted 27 June , 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Dragoon said: Nice👍🏻 thanks you. next up is duke of cornwall's light infantry Edited 27 June , 2020 by Jerry B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 June , 2020 Share Posted 27 June , 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Muerrisch said: I quote below to support my disagreement regarding special-to-service badges supplementing the rank royal arms or crown. They were certainly worn. Indeed the RA were the very first to adopt crown and gun in 1868 or so. It is possible that the additional badges were occasionally not worn in KD, with the laundering complications. Even there we have plenty of photos of WOs in KD in the Great War and later wearing the full Monty. Sorry the paste is rather small ... it survives pasting into Word OK. I’m sorry Muerrisch, I did not make myself clear. I was referring only to the WOI sergeant majors of units, i.e. the appointments that subsequently became standardised with the cavalry practice as “RSMs”. I did not mean the other, specialised WOsI. The sergeant majors of units fell into the category “All other Warrant Officers Class I”, who as the list you posted shows, wore no additional special badge. I think you will find the same applied for the appointment when the badge was a plain crown. Edited 27 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 June , 2020 Share Posted 27 June , 2020 51 minutes ago, Dragoon said: Do you know anyone on the badge forum who is a helmet flash expert? Unfortunately, only the outer shapes are visible Chris and they don’t show colour divides, or the numerals, and woven titles that such flashes usually incorporated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 27 June , 2020 Share Posted 27 June , 2020 somerset light infantry, 4th bn I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 27 June , 2020 Share Posted 27 June , 2020 welsh regiment, probably...hard to be 100% in black and white Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 June , 2020 Share Posted 27 June , 2020 (edited) Cracking pictures Jerry. The flashes used by the infantry battalions were often based on the pre-1907 woven worsted thread shoulder titles that had appeared on scarlet tunics and frocks. These are especially apparent in the designs shown for the Dorset’s and Duke of Cornwall’s Light Infantry. I enclose an image of the badge shown in your Somerset LI photo. Edited 27 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 27 June , 2020 Share Posted 27 June , 2020 17 hours ago, Muerrisch said: The S wreath crown is tthe top qualification for survey, a key artillery skill. Rare to see it in wear, thank you. It is the Surveyor, 1st Class. 6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: There were only a certain number of Indian Stations (Cantonments) with RHA Troops and they were usually co-located with cavalry. but the photo says Cairo ? What about date - late 20s ? Is there a bigger sharper image possible of the pagri badges since the battery is normally numbered thereon ? A great photo anyway. charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 June , 2020 Share Posted 27 June , 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, charlie962 said: It is the Surveyor, 1st Class. but the photo says Cairo ? What about date - late 20s ? Is there a bigger sharper image possible of the pagri badges since the battery is normally numbered thereon ? A great photo anyway. charlie I missed the Cairo reference Charlie, apologies. If we know it’s Cairo and an approximate date then it ought to be possible to ID the unit. There was a big garrison in Egypt since after WW1, right through to WW2 and after. In fact up until Nasser threw us out and precipitated the Suez Crisis. Edited 27 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 27 June , 2020 Share Posted 27 June , 2020 10 minutes ago, charlie962 said: It is the Surveyor, 1st Class. but the photo says Cairo ? What about date - late 20s ? Is there a bigger sharper image possible of the pagri badges since the battery is normally numbered thereon ? A great photo anyway. charlie charlie, it is scanned at 600dpi, probably as good as it gets for a post card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 June , 2020 Share Posted 27 June , 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jerry B said: charlie, it is scanned at 600dpi, probably as good as it gets for a post card I think that the position of the helmet with the rectangular flash is significant as it’s directly in front of the surveyor and it seems very likely to me that he’s from a different establishment to the rest. Note that his breeches are different too. The SM at centre wears fine grade officer pattern KD, which is noticeably paler than the heavy drill cloth that the rest wear. Conversely the other WOII wears the same breeches with whitened strapping to the inner thighs as the rest of the sitters. His helmet too seems to be strategically placed in front, which suggests to me that his flash represents the unit insignia. I enclose an image of a common form RA pagri flash. Edited 27 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 27 June , 2020 Share Posted 27 June , 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: I’m sorry Muerrisch, I did not make myself clear. I was referring only to the WOI sergeant majors of units, i.e. the appointments that subsequently became standardised with the cavalry practice as “RSMs”. I did not mean the other, specialised WOsI. The sergeant majors of units fell into the category “All other Warrant Officers Class I”, who as the list you posted shows, wore no additional special badge. I think you will find the same applied for the appointment when the badge was a plain crown. Point taken. Regarding RA, Campbell confirms that what we might call for convenience "executive" ranks above SNCO did not wear the gun badge. Going back out of period to Victorian times, the RA gun appeared on just about every senior rank and appointment. The cavalry appear to be different, with photos of the 1920s and 1930s showing the various silver regimental badges in wear [Gordon Dines's book]. This can be taken as further confirmation that the three WOs in question are not cavalry. A very stimulating photo. Given only one sergeant "bare-breasted" I suggest fairly soon after the Great War. Edited 27 June , 2020 by Muerrisch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 June , 2020 Share Posted 27 June , 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Muerrisch said: Point taken. Regarding RA, Campbell confirms that what we might call for convenience "executive" ranks above SNCO did not wear the gun badge. Going back out of period to Victorian times, the RA gun appeared on just about every senior rank and appointment. The cavalry appear to be different, with photos of the 1920s and 1930s showing the various silver regimental badges in wear [Gordon Dines's book]. This can be taken as further confirmation that the three WOs in question are not cavalry. A very stimulating photo. Given only one sergeant "bare-breasted" I suggest fairly soon after the Great War. Yes, it’s an intriguing photo indeed and my next curiosity relates to considering whose establishment the surveyor sits on? I imagine it’s the Brigade HQ, where the Bde SM also sits. The rest of them, marked out not least by their whitened inner thighs, are all Troop personnel. Edited 27 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 28 June , 2020 Share Posted 28 June , 2020 (edited) another sun helmet with flash pc, this time Royal engineers with white over blue signals flash I think, on a Triumph model H motorcycle. This post which manages to include three of my main interests, militaria, sun helmets and motorcycles in general but Triumphs in particular as I own modern bonnie Edited 28 June , 2020 by Jerry B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hewitt Posted 28 June , 2020 Share Posted 28 June , 2020 C Company, 10th Battalion Sherwood Foresters sometime in 1915 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 28 June , 2020 Share Posted 28 June , 2020 18 hours ago, Muerrisch said: Regarding RA, Campbell confirms Looking at Campbell, I see that: -Surveyor RA Class I was a 1921 creation. Badge as Crown over S in wreath. - The appointment of Lance Sergeant was a 1920 introduction. Three chevrons without the gun. That clarifies (for me) the rank/appointment of several of the men in the photo. - BSM 1915 onwards was just a crown on lower sleeve having previously been crown above gun above 3 chevrons upper sleeve. - BQMS has crown above gun above three chevrons. Questions- What is the big crown over gun over 3 stripes worn in front row fourth from right? I assume BQMS is man front row far left ? What is the sleeve badge (lower right sleeve) of the man in middle row second from right ? Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 28 June , 2020 Share Posted 28 June , 2020 17 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Looking at Campbell, I see that: -Surveyor RA Class I was a 1921 creation. Badge as Crown over S in wreath. - The appointment of Lance Sergeant was a 1920 introduction. Three chevrons without the gun. That clarifies (for me) the rank/appointment of several of the men in the photo. - BSM 1915 onwards was just a crown on lower sleeve having previously been crown above gun above 3 chevrons upper sleeve. - BQMS has crown above gun above three chevrons. Questions- What is the big crown over gun over 3 stripes worn in front row fourth from right? I assume BQMS is man front row far left ? What is the sleeve badge (lower right sleeve) of the man in middle row second from right ? Charlie I will wait for others to respond but I assume you mean't these two and you mean't his left forearm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 28 June , 2020 Share Posted 28 June , 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Looking at Campbell, I see that: -Surveyor RA Class I was a 1921 creation. Badge as Crown over S in wreath. - The appointment of Lance Sergeant was a 1920 introduction. Three chevrons without the gun. That clarifies (for me) the rank/appointment of several of the men in the photo. - BSM 1915 onwards was just a crown on lower sleeve having previously been crown above gun above 3 chevrons upper sleeve. - BQMS has crown above gun above three chevrons. Questions- What is the big crown over gun over 3 stripes worn in front row fourth from right? I assume BQMS is man front row far left ? What is the sleeve badge (lower right sleeve) of the man in middle row second from right ? Charlie I’m only looking on a phone but I think that the sleeve insignia is probably a bullion Layers badge. The SNCO with large crown is very likely to be the BQMS given his position in the pecking order straddling the Bde SM on the opposite side from the BSM, and adjacent to the surveyor, who’s clearly from another establishment to the battery given his pagri flash. In peacetime an Arty Bde could comprise just two batteries, rather than three, which might be the case here although I’m not positive (one sergeant per sub-section and then there’s the specialists and Bde HQ staff). The surveyor has an MC so it might be possible to trace him with the right supplementary information. Edited 28 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 28 June , 2020 Share Posted 28 June , 2020 The sleeve badge is a gunnery prize badge : there were two varieties, each with three grades; the varieties were battery prize, and individual prize. As the designs changed often, difficult to be more precise. The Layer badge was an appointment so worn upper right, this since about turn of the century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 28 June , 2020 Share Posted 28 June , 2020 12 minutes ago, Muerrisch said: The sleeve badge is a gunnery prize badge Good spot: looks indeed like a gothic G in a wreath. cannot quite see if there is a star or a crown above for the higher grades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 28 June , 2020 Share Posted 28 June , 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Muerrisch said: The sleeve badge is a gunnery prize badge : there were two varieties, each with three grades; the varieties were battery prize, and individual prize. As the designs changed often, difficult to be more precise. The Layer badge was an appointment so worn upper right, this since about turn of the century. Yes of course I should have remembered that NCOs wore the badge above stripes, but below crowns. Would not a Gunner have worn it on right lower sleeve, I confess I cannot recall off hand and don’t have your jointly authored book to hand? Edit: answered my own question using photos from my photo references. Frustrating that my memory’s starting to slip sometimes, and yet on another week I’ll remember the exact thing in detail. 😡 Edited 28 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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