Postcards

[seaJane]

Succumbed to this "suffragette postcard" on e-bay. Naval censorship stamp apparently.

 

[IPT]

56 minutes ago, seaJane said:

Succumbed to this "suffragette postcard" on e-bay. Naval censorship stamp apparently.

 

M18739 Frederick Palmerston Thomas (1890-1972) - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7052922

 

It seems likely that "Nancy" was Elizabeth Ann, (nee Gould), whom he married in 1913.  The address on the postcard is her parents' address.

 

 

Edited 11 April , 2019 by IPT

[seaJane]

That's brilliant, thank you!

 

The request for a consignment of hypo makes me think he must have been a photographer.

[IPT]

A few more in the series (not sure they were advancing women's causes);

 

 

 

 

Winifred Wimbush - http://www.jhsn.eclipse.co.uk/id125.htm

Edited 11 April , 2019 by IPT

[seaJane]

Those are certainly the world's most impractical skirts for marching purposes .... !

 

I see from his record that Fred was an ERA.

[Jools mckenna]

Mostly Krrc(not sure about the 2nd lieutenant) with a boy scout. What does the white band mean? (away from scanner at the moment, so photos will have to do)

[GWF1967]

3 hours ago, Jools mckenna said:

 What does the white band mean?

 

Officer Cadets?

[FROGSMILE]

As well as for officer cadets, where officer uniform without rank was usually seen, white bands were also used pre-war for umpires and opposing force identification during war-game manoeuvres.

[GWF1967]

R.G.A. Signallers.

R.F.A. with Boy Bugler.

Unknown Concert Party Wedding.

[FROGSMILE]

The boy is a Trumpeter RA, his trumpet is in front of him (although he could also play a bugle).  Note his crossed trumpets qualification badge.  For many years the RA and RE trumpeters had their own pattern badge with an upright sprig of laurel and different to that worn by trumpeters in other arms.  This difference had been phased out when the metal version began to be issued in 1907.

Edited 11 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Kate Wills]

42 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

Unknown Concert Party Wedding.

 

 

 

[Kate Wills]

This could be a fancy dress competition. Note the trophy held by the seated man in front.

 

Fancy dress competitions were yet another pastime held at home and on active service abroad, often as part of regimental sports days and horse shows etc

[Toby Brayley]

An unknown 11th Hussar, unusual to see the P1889 Bandolier with them in use this late, post 1907. 

 

 

Edited 12 April , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[GWF1967]

10 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The boy is a Trumpeter RA, his trumpet is in front of him (although he could also play a bugle).  Note his crossed trumpets qualification badge.  For many years the RA and RE trumpeters had their own pattern badge with an upright sprig of laurel and different to that worn by trumpeters in other arms.  This difference had been phased out when the metal version began to be issued in 1907.

 

 

Thanks for the reminder. 

 

9 hours ago, Kate Wills said:

This could be a fancy dress competition. Note the trophy held by the seated man in front.

 

Fancy dress competitions were yet another pastime held at home and on active service abroad, often as part of regimental sports days and horse shows etc

Thank you. I hadn't thought of a F.D competition. 

[Dave1418]

Hi all

a nice pre war RAMC group, some excellent long service strips and early cloth titles, Slade Wallace equipment, buglers badges etc however I can’t make out what rank badge is above the sets of long service strips and RAMC cross on the two chaps on the extreme right and left of image or what their medal ribbons.

Any assistances would be greatly appreciated.

many thanks 

Dave

[FROGSMILE]

They are both the unique TF appointment of Acting Sergeant Major, Dave.  The badge was 4-point up [erratum] stripes with Geneva cross and large crown over. Always regulars on attachment, there was only one ASM per unit, which suggests either two units in the photo, or perhaps a handover/takeover taking place.  Although of sergeant major status, with certain dress privileges, such men were not warrant officers, and thus had different rates of pay.  This reflected the the long standing policy that auxiliary troops, regardless of appointment, could not hold the same status as those in regular units.  It was not until 1915-16 and the introduction of the WOII rank, along with the Military Service Act (conscription), that this differential was finally abolished.

Edited 14 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

4 point up of course!

 

The bugler has an ornate badge at top of right sleeve. probably a very big title badge, and a few other men have such, on both shoulders. This may support the "two units" idea.

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

4 point up of course!

 

The bugler has an ornate badge at top of right sleeve. probably a very big title badge, and a few other men have such, on both shoulders. This may support the "two units" idea.

 

Yes, point up I meant so I’ll correct, thank you.

[GWF1967]

Alfred James Caterer.   Enl. 27/8/1914  aged 15.  Gnr.1399.  5th London Brigade  R.F.A. T.F.

Overseas.  1917. Gnr. 950380. A/15 Brigade  R.F.A. 

[GWF1967]

Gnr. Wilfred Frank Cowley L/3186  R.F.A. "Wilfred's 18th Birthday".

 

Bdr.  L/31867.  1917.

[MBrockway]

 

On 11/04/2019 at 20:56, Jools mckenna said:

Mostly Krrc(not sure about the 2nd lieutenant) with a boy scout. What does the white band mean? (away from scanner at the moment, so photos will have to do)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cap badge is the KRRC-style maltese cross, but with a scroll below ...

 

The fourth and eighth above are less clearly the maltese cross and may be different badges altogether - see below.

 

... also I can see at least one set of three-decker TF curved shoulder titles ...

 

... so I'd say London Regiment rather than KRRC and either The Rangers (12/LR) or the First Surrey Rifles (21/LR).  KRRC STs are straight and often not worn at all. 

 

The First Surrey Rifles cap badge is slightly more 'open', has a wider/taller top and a larger circlet, so I'd plump for that if I had to choose, but I am far from certain   I am however sure these men are not KRRC.

 

 The Rangers (12/LR)                                 First Surrey Rifles (21/LR)

  

 

Both units wore blackened rifle buttons.

 

The Second Lieutenant has the corded boss in the KRRC tradition, but I think he also has collar dogs, which were never worn by KRRC.

 

Officers in several of the London Regt units with KRRC links also used the corded boss 'cherry', sometimes with a regimental variation like the QVR's St George and Dragon, more usually with the standard strung hunting horn.

 

I have no firm info on whether the officers of The Rangers or the First Surrey Rifles wore the 'cherry', but I'd say it is certainly very possible.

 

The be-capped chap lying prone could *possibly* be 23rd London Regt?

 

Also this chap could *possibly* be wearing the Lamb and Flag of 22nd or 24th London Regt

[Edit: as Pat points out below, he also has black buttons, which we think may rule him out from 22/ or 24/LR]

 

The Lance-Corporal standing left, is a bit blurry, compounded by a blemish on the photo.  He could be KRRC, in which case the five-pointed star on his lower right sleeve would be for Distance Judging, or he could be LR, in which case the star must be the TF Efficiency Star.  I cannot tell if his cap badge has the scroll below it, nor what his STs look like.

 

 

See this posted elsewhere by Graham Stewart from the 1910 TF Regulations ...

 

 

 

As regards the white band on the caps, Frogsmile makes a good point ...

 

On 12/04/2019 at 00:18, FROGSMILE said:

As well as for officer cadets, where officer uniform without rank was usually seen, white bands were also used pre-war for umpires and opposing force identification during war-game manoeuvres.

 

I'd say it would be fairly unusual for so many members of a group of officer cadets to all come from the same regiment, so I go with Frogsmile's alternative suggestion.  The Boy Scout strongly suggests the location is in Blighty and the white bands have a very temporary look.

 

 

Lovely photo Jools - thanks very much for posting. 

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

Edited 13 April , 2019 by MBrockway
Updated with excellent point from Pat Atkins

[Pat Atkins]

Mark, I'm rather out of my depth with rifle battalions (unlike yourself - I found your explanation re KRRC/Londons authoritative and interesting, thanks), but the putative 22nd or 24th London Regt (Queen's) chap seems to have black buttons, though I'm not 100% sure - would this rule out those battalions? Pity if so, because the lamb & flag cap badge seems a good shout; not so sure about the 23rd Londons badge, but it doesn't look like a Maltese cross, certainly.

 

Cheers, Pat

 

Edited 13 April , 2019 by Pat Atkins

[FROGSMILE]

The manoeuvres might perhaps have been those that famously took place in 1912 and 1913 and at the first of which General Haig was decisively out-General’d: 

 

1912.  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Manoeuvres_of_1912

 

1913. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Manoeuvres_of_1913

 

N.B.  It seems significant to me that in 1913 the enemy, ‘WHITE’ force was made up largely of Territorials.

Edited 13 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

4 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

Mark, I'm rather out of my depth with rifle battalions (unlike yourself - I found your explanation re KRRC/Londons authoritative and interesting, thanks), but the putative 22nd or 24th London Regt (Queen's) chap seems to have black buttons, though I'm not 100% sure - would this rule out those battalions? Pity if so, because the lamb & flag cap badge seems a good shout; not so sure about the 23rd Londons badge, but it doesn't look like a Maltese cross, certainly.

 

Cheers, Pat

 

 

Good point Pat - 22nd and 24th Londons would not have worn blackened rifle buttons as far as I know, though as with any former rifle volunteer VF/TF unit anything's possible!

 

The First Surrey Rifles (21/LR), 22/, 23/ and 24/LR were brigaded together in 6th (London) Brigade, hence my raising of them as potential units.

 

They were all at Annual Camp on Perham Down with the rest of 2nd London Division at the outbreak of the war.

 

The Rangers were in 3rd (London) Brigade in the 1st London Division.

 

Mark

 

[Pat Atkins]

The more I think about it (and squint at those two cap badges), the more this scenario seems likely. Anomalous buttons notwithstanding - as Mark says, they were all rifle volunteers pre-1908. So these men are probably from what was, in France a couple of years later, the 142nd (London) Bde.

 

It's poignant to remember, looking at these relaxed Territorials, that the 23rd and 24th Londons suffered very heavy casualties in their first battle. On 25th & 26th May 1915 at Givenchy they took - and held - the German front line (L/cpl James Keyworth of the 24th won the VC), until relieved by the 21st. Not bad for a bunch of 'Saturday Night Soldiers' - but it must have been a very different brigade thereafter.

 

Pat