Postcards

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, Dragoon said:

Yes, these are regular soldiers, Sergeant Majors in charge of each Squadron.

My GG line regiment was the 3rd Dragoon Guards,he was SSM of D Sqn Huddersfield ,   the SSM's normally wore the uniforms and insignia of the Yeomanry they were attached to.

The four chevrons and crown above were the rank of the Sergeant Majors, RSM's before 1914 wore just the crown, I do have the name of the RSM somewhere, his line regiment was the Life Guards.

Hope this helps

 

Chris

 

Superb photo, Chris, with a very good view of an early WO’s/ASM’s 02 SD, noticeably shorter in the skirt, and with a central pleat down the back out of sight.

Edited 29 March , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Superb photo, Chris, with a very good view of an early WO’s/ASM’s 02 SD, noticeably shorter in the skirt, and with a central pleat down the back out of sight.

Thank you FROGSMILE for your input.

Interestingly a lot of the papers and things we have,  have my GG's rank as Staff Sergeant Major, not Squadron SM, is this because they were permanent staff? 

Oh yes, and is the chap second left the QM Sergeant four inverted stripes and a star badge?

Cheers 

Chrid

Edited 29 March , 2019 by Dragoon

[Muerrisch]

His rank before leaving 3DG may give the answer ....... I suspect it was "staff sergeant" ........ these were, as you know, above sergeants and below QM sergeants [QM sergeant was a rank until 1915]. Staff sergeants [as also their equivalent colour sergeants of infantry] could hold a wide variety of appointments, including squadron sergeant major.

As for the possible RQMS, I took the small badge as being a version of the crown, but if an 8 point star then certainly a QMS holding RQMS appointment. What I am doubtful regarding is a Yeomanry [or indeed TF infantry] unit having a regular soldier as RQMS, so he may be the most senior Yeoman. He looks well fed enough to be a QMS.

 

You will gather that Yeomanry are not my strong suit!

Edited 29 March , 2019 by Muerrisch

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Dragoon said:

Thank you FROGSMILE for your input.

Interestingly a lot of the papers and things we have,  have my GG's rank as Staff Sergeant Major, not Squadron SM, is this because they were permanent staff? 

Oh yes, and is the chap second left the QM Sergeant four inverted stripes and a star badge?

Cheers 

Chrid

 

I am unsure about the use of the term Staff Sergeant Major for TF cavalry, but what Muerrisch has said seems logical (his suggested parallel with CSgts makes sense), albeit that from a pan-Army viewpoint it’s confusing.  That’s because traditionally a Staff Sergeant Major was an appointment only in a number of specialist corps, including ASC and APC, that in its First Class guise was given to the most senior group of Warrant Officers, i.e. at the same level as Conductors and Master Gunners 1st and 2nd Class. After 1915 a Staff Sergeant Major became a WOII and a Staff Sergeant Major First Class became a WOI.

Edited 29 March , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Having done some research I can confidently say that the YD were not obeying regulations,  but I can quite understand why [indeed I suspect that ALL Yeomanry followed suit].

 

The first Regulations for the TF 1908 canceled all previous VF and Yeomanry versions and make it clear that the new publication covers all branches, corps and departments.

TF Regs 1910, and 1912, reiterate the details that I summarise below.

 

Permanent Staff

Acting Sergeant Major: 4 bar chevron lower arm with crown

Squadron SM instructor, colour sergeant instructor staff sergeant instructor RA RE RAMC etc etc. three bar chevron upper arm, crossed rifles and crown [crossed rifles only if holding certificate]

Sergeant instructor three bar chevron. Crossed rifles if qualified.

 

Established numbers for Yeomanry [not in 1912 edition]  of sergeant instructors [nb this is generic as ever, and includes staff and colour sergeants] five, to include one for each squadron. The Establishment states that these NCOs are counted in the allocations thus: RSM [sic], RQMS [sic] Squadron Sergeant majors four. It would appear that the RQMS would probably be a Yeoman in a four squadron regiment.

 

The very good reason why Yeomanry did not follow the regulation ranking system probably lies in the badges that British cavalry adopted when Troop Sergeant Majors were appointed {Dawnay says 1809 if I read him correctly]: an equivalent level to staff and colour sergeants {1813], but no "colour" badge prescribed. Dawnay says the TSM wore four bars, the RSM four bars plus a crown.

 

One can understand why dropping to a three bar badge for Permanent Staff SNCOs of the Yeomanry was unattractive. Nevertheless the difference from TF infantry could cause some awkwardness in mixed gatherings, and the fact that the YD RSM wore a crown badge was very naughty indeed, putting him on a level with regular warrant officers, which he was not.

 

As an aside, there are evidences of a continuing struggle by regular SNCO appointed PS to be distinguished from the TF SNCOs ........ all sorts of stratagems can be seen in group photos.

 

Lastly, given that TF units were subjected to inspections, the malpractice must have been sanctioned [I assume in all the above that the YD were far from unusual]

[Dragoon]

36 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Having done some research I can confidently say that the YD were not obeying regulations,  but I can quite understand why [indeed I suspect that ALL Yeomanry followed suit].

 

The first Regulations for the TF 1908 canceled all previous VF and Yeomanry versions and make it clear that the new publication covers all branches, corps and departments.

TF Regs 1910, and 1912, reiterate the details that I summarise below.

 

Permanent Staff

Acting Sergeant Major: 4 bar chevron lower arm with crown

Squadron SM instructor, colour sergeant instructor staff sergeant instructor RA RE RAMC etc etc. three bar chevron upper arm, crossed rifles and crown [crossed rifles only if holding certificate]

Sergeant instructor three bar chevron. Crossed rifles if qualified.

 

Established numbers for Yeomanry [not in 1912 edition]  of sergeant instructors [nb this is generic as ever, and includes staff and colour sergeants] five, to include one for each squadron. The Establishment states that these NCOs are counted in the allocations thus: RSM [sic], RQMS [sic] Squadron Sergeant majors four. It would appear that the RQMS would probably be a Yeoman in a four squadron regiment.

 

The very good reason why Yeomanry did not follow the regulation ranking system probably lies in the badges that British cavalry adopted when Troop Sergeant Majors were appointed {Dawnay says 1809 if I read him correctly]: an equivalent level to staff and colour sergeants {1813], but no "colour" badge prescribed. Dawnay says the TSM wore four bars, the RSM four bars plus a crown.

 

One can understand why dropping to a three bar badge for Permanent Staff SNCOs of the Yeomanry was unattractive. Nevertheless the difference from TF infantry could cause some awkwardness in mixed gatherings, and the fact that the YD RSM wore a crown badge was very naughty indeed, putting him on a level with regular warrant officers, which he was not.

 

As an aside, there are evidences of a continuing struggle by regular SNCO appointed PS to be distinguished from the TF SNCOs ........ all sorts of stratagems can be seen in group photos.

 

Lastly, given that TF units were subjected to inspections, the malpractice must have been sanctioned [I assume in all the above that the YD were far from unusual]

I have my GG's service record, he was a Squadron Sergeant Major in the 3DG when he transferred to the YD's. So he was a WO.

I have seen a photo of a PSI in the Pembroke Yeomanry, written on it was 'Staff Sergeant Major xxxxxx ( can't remember name) 1911. He has four inverted chevrons with a crown above 

My Dad has a cabinet at home with a brass tablet saying "Presented to Staff Sergeant Major W Walker as a token of esteem from Huddersfield Troop Yorkshire Dragoons April 1914.

I also have a Bradford directory which says 'drill Sergeant, Staff Major Walker' .

I have a photo of my GG as RSM and he also wears a crown as his rank.

It appears regular PSI adopted the four chevrons and crown as SSM's.

 

Chris

[Muerrisch]

Thank you. Just one thing, in and before 1910 a SSMajor of regular cavalry was not a warrant officer. He was two ranks below WO, being [rank not appointment] a staff sergeant, with QMS rank next above, and then only two WOs, the RSM and the Bandmaster. I can scan the King's Regs of the period for you, best as a PM. Please let me know if you want the relevant page.

[Dragoon]

12 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Thank you. Just one thing, in and before 1910 a SSMajor of regular cavalry was not a warrant officer. He was two ranks below WO, being [rank not appointment] a staff sergeant, with QMS rank next above, and then only two WOs, the RSM and the Bandmaster. I can scan the King's Regs of the period for you, best as a PM. Please let me know if you want the relevant page.

Great information, I didn't know about SSM not being a WO, before SSM he was a Rough Riding Sergeant Major, I have a photo of him at his wedding in his Scarlets, 3 stipes, PWO feathers arm badge spur, and crown above. Lovely photo.

A scan, if it's ok with you, of the KR's would be brilliant thank you.

Greatly appreciated for your help.

 

Chris 

[Pat Atkins]

I love this thread: apart from the postcards themselves, what a font of (often arcane) knowledge it is. Kudos to all concerned.

 

Pat

[Dragoon]

2 minutes ago, Pat Atkins said:

I love this thread: apart from the postcards themselves, what a font of (often arcane) knowledge it is. Kudos to all concerned.

 

Pat

Well said Pat, it is a fantastic thread

 

Chris 

[Muerrisch]

KR 1912 amended to August 1914. Important note: there were major changes in May 1915. Appended please find a complete Declaration of war status. NB Colour sergeants are now appointed CSM or CQMS, still wearing colour sergeant badges, and the CSM drawing an extra 6d per day. 

 

KR 1912 amd to Aug 1914 1 IMG_20190331_0001.pdf KR 2 IMG_20190331_0002.pdf KR 3 IMG_20190331_0004.pdf

Edited 31 March , 2019 by Muerrisch
addendum

[FROGSMILE]

Excellent information by Muerrisch.  Just wish to second what he has said regarding warrant officers before 1915.  To modern eyes it seems strange and it was.  None at cavalry and infantry sub-unit level.  Each arm of the Service has to be looked at separately to see what the situation was.  A key point to note when doing this is that an artillery battery was considered to be of the same status in ‘combat power’ (to use the modern term) as a cavalry regiment and infantry battalion, which is why it was commanded by an officer of field rank.

Edited 31 March , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Jools mckenna]

Marines and sailors of HMS Black Prince taken in about 1915. 

Edited 31 March , 2019 by Jools mckenna

[GWF1967]

"Sammy" A.S.C. 

 The registration plate Lt 264 is a London reg. issued between July 1918 and February 1919. 

[GWF1967]

A.S.C. - "Soldats Anglais" 

[Beechhill]

10 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

"Sammy" A.S.C. 

 The registration plate Lt 264 is a London reg. issued between July 1918 and February 1919. 

Foliage and short shadows say summer. 

Edited 1 April , 2019 by Beechhill

[FROGSMILE]

On 30/03/2019 at 18:41, Dragoon said:

I have my GG's service record, he was a Squadron Sergeant Major in the 3DG when he transferred to the YD's. So he was a WO.

I have seen a photo of a PSI in the Pembroke Yeomanry, written on it was 'Staff Sergeant Major xxxxxx ( can't remember name) 1911. He has four inverted chevrons with a crown above 

My Dad has a cabinet at home with a brass tablet saying "Presented to Staff Sergeant Major W Walker as a token of esteem from Huddersfield Troop Yorkshire Dragoons April 1914.

I also have a Bradford directory which says 'drill Sergeant, Staff Major Walker' .

I have a photo of my GG as RSM and he also wears a crown as his rank.

It appears regular PSI adopted the four chevrons and crown as SSM's.

 

Chris

 

An important point to note Chris is that TF (and VF before them) were not permitted warrant officers until during WW1.  Thus your GG could indeed be a Sergeant Major, at both sub-unit and unit level, without being a warrant officer until the regulations changed (and subsequently endured) as an exigency of war.

Edited 1 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

14 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

A.S.C. - "Soldats Anglais" 

The lorry is a Straker-Squire, either a Model CW 30cwt or a Model CO 3-tonner. Only a few hundred were supplied to the British Army in WW1 so not the most common of vehicles. Nice to see one in a photo.    Pete.

[Pat Atkins]

15 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

A.S.C. - "Soldats Anglais" 

OK, I'll ask (donning the protective Aegis of Ignorance and trusting to the patience of Pals) - is there any significance to that Corporal's wearing of shorts? I can imagine a number of ad hoc reasons, just wondered if there were more to it. 

 

Cheers, Pat

Edited 1 April , 2019 by Pat Atkins

[Dragoon]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

An important point to note Chris is that TF (and VF before them) were not permitted warrant officers until during WW1.  Thus your GG could indeed be a Sergeant Major, at both sub-unit and unit level, without being a warrant officer until the regulations changed (and subsequently endured) as an exigency of war.

Thank you FROGSMILE, I think I get it now, can be quite confusing ha ha. 

Thank you all for your interest in my postcard, and for all the wonderful information with regards to rank, all greatly appreciated, 

 

Chris

[Gardenerbill]

28 minutes ago, Pat Atkins said:

is there any significance to that Corporal's wearing of shorts?

The Jacket and shorts are a lighter colour so I assume a tropical uniform, perhaps he had recently transferred form another theatre and hadn't been allocated a new uniform.

[GWF1967]

4 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

The lorry is a Straker-Squire, either a Model CW 30cwt or a Model CO 3-tonner. Only a few hundred were supplied to the British Army in WW1 so not the most common of vehicles. Nice to see one in a photo.    Pete.

Thanks for the id Pete. 

 

4 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

Is there any significance to that Corporal's wearing of shorts?

 

Cheers, Pat

Three Soldats from London, one from Newcastle?  

[FROGSMILE]

19 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

is there any significance to that Corporal's wearing of shorts? I can imagine a number of ad hoc reasons, just wondered if there were more to it. 

 

Cheers, Pat

 

Pat, he’s wearing full KD rather than the SD of the others.  Seeing occasional men in SD shorts was fairly common in the first hot Summer of the war, but this mix of KD and SD is a bit more unusual.  Perhaps he’s relatively recently arrived from another theatre of war (e.g. Egypt) and not yet received his issue of SD.  It seems less likely that he’d have a random spare set of KD amongst his kit and wear it as a whim because it was a hot day.

Edited 2 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Essex Regiment Boxers. 

Edited 2 April , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[Pat Atkins]

Re shorts: thanks as ever for the responses, transfer from another theatre would seem likely (interesting about SD/KD though) - however, in the absence of further evidence, I'll go with the Geordie winterwear option...

 

Cheers, Pat