The HARRY LUND investigation by 'Team Harry'

[headgardener]

I did another search; Quartermaster J.C. Cole and Seaman J.T. Newman of the US Navy were both awarded RHS bronze medals (case number 44076) in recognition of their bravery in helping rescue some of the survivors of the Glenart Castle, PROBABLY including Harry Lund.

I had previously searched the bronze medal roll which is online, but had only checked for "Bristol channel" and "Irish Sea"; they are both recorded as "off Lundy Island" (I should have searched by date, but in any case I wasn't looking for named US sailors at that stage).

The link to the RHS list of bronze medals awarded in 1918 is HERE.

I can think of a variety explanations for the unidentified man being subsequently identified as Harry Lund (identifying marks on his body, such as a tattoo, a previously unnoticed ID bracelet, etc), but let's see what the DC turns up.

Edit; the records of the RHS (which is still in existence) were donated to the London Metropolitan Archives in 2008. Anyone likely to be paying a visit there any time in the near future?

[Verrico2009]

Good going, headgardener.

I have a reader's card for LMA, but am not going to get there for 3-4 weeks now.

[Old Owl]

Excellent news Headgardner--sounds like the citations should be more accessible now--but I wonder if Harry will get a mention?

Looks like its over to you Verrico--and No I haven't blown the petrol budget--I've been selling it on the black market and made a pretty penny too!! But don't tell Andy, please!!

Seriously, I don't suppose that another month or so will make that much difference, particularly as it's taken 93? years to get this far !!

[BJanman]

Never let it be said I give up easily

Below are a list of service numbers, enlistment and mobilization dates around Harrys. As you will see the service numbers and dates of mobilization run in order. I'm still happy to be proved wrong but I really do believe Harry started his service in 1917.

110352 Pte ABBOTT John Thomas E. 07/12/1915 - M. 04/04/1917 – to Y Coy

111869 Pte ABLETT Joseph William E. 14/02/1916 - M. 14/04/1917

115666 Pte LUND Harry ? ?

117324 Pte ASKEW Frederick James E. 10/05/1917 - M. 10/05/1917

119131 Pte BROWN Arthur George E. 10/12/1915 - M. 04/06/1917 – R Coy - H.M.H.S. "Glenart Castle"

122358 Pte ASHWORTH Samuel E. 31/08/1916 - M. 11/07/1917 - H.M.H.S. "Glenart Castle"

122276 Pte WADSWORTH Harold Victor E. 17/07/1917 - M. 17/07/1917

122523 Pte ABBOTT John Washington E. 25/10/1916 - M. 19/07/1917

123940 Pte JARDINE Joseph E. 24/06/1916 - M. 02/08/1917 - H.M.H.S. "Glenart Castle"

123854 Pte BAMFORD Ernest E. 10/12/1915 -M. 07/08/1917 - H.M.H.S. "Glenart Castle"

123911 Pte BLENCH William E. 02/06/1916 - M. 08/08/1917 - H.M.H.S. "Glenart Castle"

123977 Pte CLAMP Charles E. 13/01/1916 - M. 09/08/1917 - H.M.H.S. "Glenart Castle"

124041 Pte PRATT Samuel Royston E. 10/12/1915 - M. 09/08/1917 – S Coy - H.M.H.S. "Glenart Castle"

205066 Pte ADAMS Ernest James M. 19/06/1919 - M. 15/07/1919

[Verrico2009]

Very interesting work, Barbara.

Please excuse my ignorance, but how would it have worked? I see several of the men enlisting around the same time ended up on the Glenart Castle. Would that indicate that they generally experienced the same service as a cohesive group?

[so you'll be arriving in style and practising your "royal wave" I take it, Robert!]

[Old Owl]

Good work Barbara.

It would seem from to the sequence of numbers that Harry amost certainly enlisted in late 1916 or early 1917? but then again he may have tried to enlist for an infantry unit at an earlier date and been rejected? he could have been rejected on age or physical grounds?

The family were obviously living quite far apart at that time and hence interpretation of when he enlisted may have become confused. I had hoped that the Wakefield paper would have had an entry for him but unfortunately none was forthcoming.

Yes Louise, I'm practising my wave as we speak. I just need to commandeer a suitable vehicle--a Rolls Royce should do?

Robert

[BJanman]

I see several of the men enlisting around the same time ended up on the Glenart Castle. Would that indicate that they generally experienced the same service as a cohesive group?

I’m not sure about a cohesive group but it looks as if most of them shared the same experiences. I noticed from their service records that most were sent to “R” Coy. I did intend to post these but it got lost in transit from my database to 'word' to the forum. “R” Coy appears to have been a training company located in Blackpool. The survivor Pte Samuel Royston Pratt was posted to "S" Coy before being posted to the Glenart Castle and, although I haven’t researched it thoroughly [no official papers, so info has to be gleaned from other sources] "S" Coy also appears to have been located at Blackpool.

The further down the service numbers I went, i.e. to the casualties of the Glenart Castle who have 5 digit numbers, then their service records showed more active service before being posted to the ship. I looked into the casualties first as they obviously had service numbers so were easy to trace. I will see if I can trace service numbers closer to Harry’s service number to see what that reveals.

I've looked again at the service numbers above and noticed they do not all run in order but are very close. Something I will keep in mind when continuing to look into this.

Barbara

[headgardener]

Excellent work Barbara! I'm sure that you've nailed the correct period of enlistment.

With regard to the service of the men on the Glenart Castle, all the NCO's had relatively low numbers, so they were the experienced men (Colin Beveridge mentions in his evidence that he had seen a submarine in the Mediterranean in May 1917 while he was serving on the 'Valdaira'). Then there's a jump in the range of service numbers to 11*,***, but then there's a large group (22 out of the 47 NCO's and men) in the range of 122,*** to 124,*** (many with consecutive or near consecutive numbers).

The number of men, plus the way the numbers are grouped together, is strongly suggestive of this unit having been put together straight from a Depot, which confirms Barbara's research. I'd suggest that the 'Glenart Castle' unit was put together from a large draft from a depot (or depots), plus a few experienced men to ensure that the unit wasn't too 'green'. The experienced men may also have been on the strength of a depot having been invalided back to the UK due to sickness of injuries, and the 'Glenart castle' may have represented their return to active service. The question is whether Harry was one of the 'experienced' men or not.

Here's the list (for purposes of any further research), they're all Privates unless noted otherwise;

482 Adams, George W. (SDGW show his name as George M)

1177 Vine, Fredrick Thomas (corporal)

8810 Goldsworthy, John

18391 Turner, Edward Corben (Serjeant-Major)

27002 Llewellyn, Daniel (SDGW show his name as Llewellyn DANIEL rather than Daniel LLEWELLYN)

27745 Cumber, William Saul (Staff-Serjeant)

36053 Hyatt, Thomas

42013 Mavor, George

42828 Ritchie, John (Staff-Serjeant)

42846 Ferguson, John

42850 Duncan, Andrew (L/Cpl)

42855 Beveridge, Colin (L/Cpl) survived

44314 Kelso, David (Cpl)

58627 Gerdes, Samuel (L/Cpl)

65546 Small, William

84908 Birch, Thomas

85639 Cockcroft, W (not listed in SDGW)

106437 Fulcher (survived)

113600 Underhill, Reuben

115666 Lund, Harry

119032 Simpson, Frederick

119131 Brown, Arthur George

120410 Brice, Alfred

122276 Wadsworth, Harold Victor

122319 Jacobs, Jacob

122370 Richmond, William

122531 Breakall, George

123710 Grimsley, William Thomas

123711 Hutson, George Thomas

123854 Bamford, Ernest

123869 Behnam, Harry

123911 Blench, William

123940 Jardine, Joseph

123943, Lyon, Gilchrist

123950 Wright, John

123979 Rogers, Percy

123987 Wright, Thomas Henry

123992 Abrahamson, A

123997 Clamp, Charles

123999 Donnelly, Henry

124010 Meekin, James (SDGW shows his name as McMEEKIN)

124014 Parry, John

124041 Pratt, SR (survived)

124045 Smith, William Alfred

124833 Hay, William

125620 Last, Albert Victor

130530 Norton, John

And the 4th survivor was W. FORBES.

I've got some more observations to make, but that'll do for now. There's a tube strike and I've got to get home!

[Verrico2009]

I can follow what both headgardener and Barbara are saying here. Fascinating work. Amazing what you can do without service papers.

[Robert - I thought those car-jacking lessons were going to remain "our little secret"! ]

[Old Owl]

Yes, very interesting indeed--this one's not going to get away without a struggle!!

[Drat! I thought that I had sent you that message via PM--getting confused again!! Just a moment there's someone at the door-------------something about helping them with their enquiries? Don't quite know what they are on about, but they have a rather nice car outside with a blue flashing light on top----it would probably do instead of the Roller?---looks very official, just the job--I'll just have to catch them off-guard!!----Yes, I'm just on my way officer. Speak to you soon?]

[sutton-in-craven]

Hi all, I am following this thread very closely and with perpetual fascination, although I sometimes feel slightly unproductive sat here so far away from the local libraries, cemeteries, Archive's at Kew etc.

Some of the stuff that's coming up, such as examining the order of service numbers to work out Harry's enlistment date; RHS bronze medal awards for the rescuers of the Glenart Castle etc is stuff I would never have thought of. All I can say is fantastic work everybody, this is what I call dogged and persistent determination to extract every last ounce of fact and hypothetical analysis on Harry the soldier who has been astonishingly resurrected from the 'forgotten' to the 'remembered'.

3 more sleeps before Andy meets with Harry's relative. I feel this could be the final major offensive in the search for unknown facts on Harry. Hopefully she has a copy of the DC which may well reveal whether Harry was the 4^th 'survivor' who unfortunately couldn't hang on and was therefore not recorded as such. Great work all.

[Verrico2009]

....whether Harry was the 4^th 'survivor' who unfortunately couldn't hang on and was therefore not recorded as such.

I think he's the 8th "survivor" (the delirious, then unconscious man) on the Parker, rather than the 4th RAMC man on the Faon, Andrew. Parker to Milford Haven, Faon to Swansea is what I understand from the papers.

[Old Owl]

Hi Andrew,

Yes, it seems that the enigma of 'Harry/Samuel Lund' has created almost an unprecedented volume of interest on the forum and I can't really see an end in sight yet? Hopefully his relative will fill some of the void which still exists--but that remains to be seen--on saturday! Not long now!!

I went to have a look at the K.News today, but sadly found no obituary for Sarah Ann or indeed any mention of her at all in the appropriate columns. I may have a look at the Craven Herald but I'm not really all that hopeful. It does seem that the Lund family were 'rather backward at coming forward' when it came to the local press, or at least that is my impression!!

I'll let you know how I get on.

Best wishes, Robert

[headgardener]

.......a copy of the DC which may well reveal whether Harry was the 4^th 'survivor' who unfortunately couldn't hang on and was therefore not recorded as such.

No, the 4th survivor was L/Cpl. Colin Beveridge (see my earlier post No.190 - the RAMC survivors were Beveridge, Fulcher, Forbes and Pratt).

[sutton-in-craven]

As a bit of an aside from Harry the soldier; and ahead of the big meeting this Saturday, here is the photo of Sarah Ann's gravestone in St Thomas's Church burial ground in Sutton-in-Craven. Passed away in 1914.

Interesting that her 'husband' was not laid to rest with his wife, also her other 2 children are absent. Starting to stir up my acrimonious marital breakdown theory again!

Great work Robert in spotting this and photographing it - photo accredited (is that the right word) to Robert

[Verrico2009]

Not necessarily, Andrew - I think it's very much down to what the family can afford at the time. An uncle died young and he had a lovely white marble headstone. My much-loved grandmother died shortly afterwards and they scraped together a beautiful natural coloured headstone but it was about 50 years on before my dad had the money to complete it. My grandfather isn't far away but much plainer. I think they simply couldn't afford more than a single plot on each occasion. With Sarah, it's all in the size of those stones - that's a relatively large monument for just one woman. I'd say she was greatly loved (and reasonably prosperous), though we can't prove whether it was Samuel Snr or her children.

[Old Owl]

Hi Andrew,

Thank you very much for posting the photo of Sarah Ann's grave--just a pity that I had to send it all the way 'down under' for you to return it all the way 'up top'!! The upside of this is, of course, that because we have used carrier pigeons: -- I don't think that this will have greatly altered the size of my carbon footprint ? ---or your's for that matter:

Well, I have checked all three local newspapers for an obituary for Sarah Ann, but sadly without success. It seems that the Lund family were not keen on using the local press, but having said that there were very few obituaries in the papers at that time, unless of course the person was particularly well known or well thought of locally!! I suppose that the same is true nowadays to some degree?

Unfortunately I could find no further mention of Harry either. Hopefully his relative may have more information?

Speak to you soon, Robert

[Old Owl]

Quote: "photo accredited"

Yes Andrew, that is quite correct and infact I have also copyrighted this photo!! This is inline with all major institutions such as the B.L. etc., who insist on claiming copyright on anything they have in their possession, even though it may be abundently available elsewhere. This absolutely infuriates me at times!! --Infact all the time!!

I have a feeling that this thread('Harry', that is) will soon regain momentum:

Robert

[Old Owl]

Not necessarily, Andrew - I think it's very much down to what the family can afford at the time. An uncle died young and he had a lovely white marble headstone. My much-loved grandmother died shortly afterwards and they scraped together a beautiful natural coloured headstone but it was about 50 years on before my dad had the money to complete it. My grandfather isn't far away but much plainer. I think they simply couldn't afford more than a single plot on each occasion. With Sarah, it's all in the size of those stones - that's a relatively large monument for just one woman. I'd say she was greatly loved (and reasonably prosperous), though we can't prove whether it was Samuel Snr or her children.

Hi Verrico,

I think you are quite right about this being a comparatively large monument for one person, but I suspect that it was made with the intention of adding further names, certainly there are a number of similar graves nearby with several names on some of them.

I tend to agree with Andrew as regards the acrimonious seperation theory, which would explain why Samuel Snr is nowhere to be seen? Infact I am not sure that we know when or where he died--he may even have remarried? I suspect that the children may have been involved with the funding of the grave or maybe some of Sarah's relatives(Berry family?)

Perhaps they had a few bob?

It is such a shame that Harry's name was not added, particularly as he had died so soon after his Mum.

Regards, Robert

[sutton-in-craven]

Samuel (1852-1923) and Sarah Ann (1856-1914) from an earlier post by Louise

Presumably Samuel (Senior) was buried in or near the village of Laycock, maybe in the big Oakworth cemetery. My thought is, why wouldn't he have requested or wanted to be buried with his wife if there was no 'trouble at 't mill' and the marriage was all tickety boo? Of course this is just a bit of a side topic before the main man (Our Harry) is once again the full focus of attention

p.s. I want to know how to put quotes neatly into that nice little box like everyone else does!

edit 1 - Hmm, as an after thought and just thinking out aloud. I wonder who instigated Harry's name being put onto the Sutton war memorial. Hmm, I was thinking maybe his Dad, but now I'm thinking more probably his sister who was in all likelyhood still living in Sutton at the time. Just ignore this little meandering after thought!

Edited 9 September , 2010 by sutton-in-craven

[Old Owl]

Samuel (1852-1923) and Sarah Ann (1856-1914) from an earlier post by Louise

Presumably Samuel (Senior) was buried in or near the village of Laycock, maybe in the big Oakworth cemetery. My thought is, why wouldn't he have requested or wanted to be buried with his wife if there was no 'trouble at 't mill' and the marriage was all tickety boo? Of course this is just a bit of a side topic before the main man (Our Harry) is once again the full focus of attention

p.s. I want to know how to put quotes neatly into that nice little box like everyone else does!

edit 1 - Hmm, as an after thought and just thinking out aloud. I wonder who instigated Harry's name being put onto the Sutton war memorial. Hmm, I was thinking maybe his Dad, but now I'm thinking more probably his sister who was in all likelyhood still living in Sutton at the time. Just ignore this little meandering after thought!

Morning Andrew,

I am fairly sure that Andy said he had checked Oakworth Cemetery for Samuel, but of course there could be other smaller cemeteries which may have been overlooked. I suppose it may be just possible that Harry's relatives may be able to fill some of these gaps.

I had also wondered about who put his name forward for the memorial, but then I seem to remember that a member of Sarah's family was still living in Sutton. From the article in the Keighley News ref: "On a torpedoed Hospital Ship", there is a mention of the late Mr Thomas Berry, Sutton and also a Mr Laurence Preston, the later was possibly married to one of Sarah's sisters and the former is mentioned as being the grandfather of Harry. We do not of course know if Harry's sister was married or if so what her married name was?

I have pretty much the same problem with the 'quotes thing' as yourself, sometimes they appear in a neat little box and sometimes not!! I haven't quite worked out which button press or, if indeed, in which order to press them!!

Regards, Robert

[Verrico2009]

I have pretty much the same problem with the 'quotes thing' as yourself, sometimes they appear in a neat little box and sometimes not!! I haven't quite worked out which button press or, if indeed, in which order to press them!!

"Reply" and ensure the coding ends with square brackets (starts

)! Haven't attempted the multi-quote facility yet. Fraid that's all I've got time for this morning...

[Andy Wade]

It's Laycock Cemetery that I have checked for Lunds, Not Oakworth. I don't have the MI book for that one.

Quoting is easy. When you're writing your post all you have to do is select any bit of text then click on the icon that looks like one of those talk bubble you get in cartoons. It's the 13th icon from the left - the row starting with 'B' for bold text. This sticks some quote tags before and after the text and Bob's your Father's brother.

Here's a closing tag:

Here's an opening tag:

I have to show them in this reverse order because if I show the opening one before the closing one, the software turns it into a quote box. Put the open tag before the text and the closing tag after it and it will display the text in a quote box.

If you're doing multiple quotes each block of text needs its own set of quote tags. Leave a space in between for your replies to each quote or it can get really confusing.

[Andy Wade]

Between Laycock and Oakworth Cemeteries is Slack lane Baptist Chapel which just has one Lund grave (in the MI list) It reads:

In memory of John Lund of Hill Top who died March 4th 1868 in the 62nd year of his age. Also of Susannah relict of the above named John Lund who died October 14th 1872 in the 78th year of her age.

I'll see if I can find out about Oakworth Cemetery. Although I should say that there's nothing in my war graves photographic archive for any mention of a Harry Lund in Oakworth Cemetery.

I have a Norman Lund (2nd Bradford Pals - KIA 7th Oct 1916) mentioned on a grave in Utley Cemetery but that's it for any 'Lund mentions' from any cemetery inscriptions in Keighley and the Worth Valley and I've looked at every grave inscription around these parts. Unless there's another graveyard around Sutton that he might be mentioned on we've drawn a blank here. As he's not mentioned on his sister's grave it's looking increasingly unlikely we'll find anything at all.

[Verrico2009]

Samuel Snr died on 26 February 1923 at Haworth, according to the family tree. Would that affect where he might be buried? - I know it's not exactly the other end of the country! I'm thinking that if Sarah Ann's plot was a double (or more) could Samuel have been interred there but with no lasting mention? Samuel still described himself as "married" on the 1911 census. If they're that keen on keeping an apparent united front whilst living what seem to be separate lives, perhaps it was deemed appropriate once passed over. A pauper's or common grave is an alternative, but wherever he is, he must be recorded in the archives. There's no spouse or children given for Harry's sister, who died in Sheffield in 1968. And we know his brother had moved to Wakefield before 1918.

Still, not long to go now before hopefully some light is shed on all of this.