The HARRY LUND investigation by 'Team Harry'

[BJanman]

I think I may have solved the mystery as to Harry enlisting early and having a late service number. I have been looking at a pension record for one of the survivors - 124041 Samuel Royston Pratt, RAMC, the record is on 'Ancestry' for those who can access it. It states Samuel enlisted on 10th December 1915 and was then sent to Army Reserve. He was mobilized on the 9th August 1917 and posted to 'S' Coy. He was posted again and again but was posted to HS Glenart Castle on 25th February 1918.

Harry's number is 115666, so should, in theory, have mobilized before Samuel. His will was made out on 24th April 1917, so that does fall into place. "In early 1917 most of the naval surgeons were replaced by RAMC officers and other RAMC personnel" - re horatio2's post no 8. So that again falls into place.

It could be then that Harry enlisted early and was sent to Army Reserve. Was mobilized late 1916 - early 1917 and posted to serve with the R.N.D. . He was then transferred to serve on the hospital ship in 1918. There is still a lot to be confirmed but at least Harry's story is starting to make sense.

Good luck with the rest of your research everyone.

Barbara

[Verrico2009]

[Camera 2] Louise emerges from Kew Archive blinking into the late afternoon sun, having been cooped up all day with papers: sadly, as headgardener predicted, Harry's entry in the medal rolls was absolutely standard, just another name tucked away in the Ls. Still, something to add to the growing collection ...

Drags herself back in to investigate the papers on the Glenart Castle suggested by the staff. If ONLY he'd drawn attention to the war diary before the cut-off time (though he did say the final month might not have survived).

Now, that does sound promising

[Verrico2009]

Dratted iPhone

That sounds very promising, Barbara.

Edited to add, despite a mix-up, eventually retrieved one set of papers, which was the inquest into the sinking. I've raced through and got copies of it all, but one page struck me: "the form is incorrect. He picked up 8 survivors and one dead body" (Jessie White?). Also mention of "Man who died...Jessie White. One man who is unconscious cannot be identified". Will load the whole thing for viewing when I get home at the weekend and post a link here for anyone who's interested.

[headgardener]

Harry's number is 115666, so should, in theory, have mobilized before Samuel. His will was made out on 24th April 1917, so that does fall into place. "In early 1917 most of the naval surgeons were replaced by RAMC officers and other RAMC personnel" - re horatio2's post no 8. So that again falls into place.

It could be then that Harry enlisted early and was sent to Army Reserve. Was mobilized late 1916 - early 1917 and posted to serve with the R.N.D. . He was then transferred to serve on the hospital ship in 1918. There is still a lot to be confirmed but at least Harry's story is starting to make sense.

Interesting bit of research. The man you've found enlisted under the terms of the Derby Scheme. He signed up within the last few weeks of the scheme prior to the introduction of conscription, so I'm not sure that we can draw much from his case. Harry could, of course, have been a Derby Scheme man, but they were called up according to the various groups in which they were placed rather than in numerical or date order (I won't go into a full description of the whole scheme, but that's the bare bones of it). It was introduced in about May-Jun '15, so even the very first men didn't sign up in the 'early' days of the war. I'd suggest that there's no greater chance of Harry being a Derby Scheme man than of him having enlisted in another unit in the early days of the war and transferring to the RAMC at a later date.

[Verrico2009]

From the enquiry papers - I intend to get a better copy:-

[BJanman]

I'd suggest that there's no greater chance of Harry being a Derby Scheme man than of him having enlisted in another unit in the early days of the war and transferring to the RAMC at a later date.

I agree, which is why I used the words 'may' and 'could'. To be fair your looking at two service numbers and dates of mobilization, whilst I'm looking at a database full of service numbers, enlistment and mobilization dates and seeing if they fit in.

Anyway I was contacted and asked if I could help and I have tried. I will now leave the thread and go back to my own work. I really do hope you are able to find Harry's true story Andy and Louise, you have both done so well so far.

Cheers

Barbara

[headgardener]

This threads suddenly gone a bit quiet, so I'll bring it back to life with some new material.

I looked for citations for Royal Humane Society medals. The awards for the Bronze medals are online, but not Silver or Gold. Unfortunately there weren't any Bronze medals to anyone involved in anything on the date of the Glenart Castle was sunk. But who knows about Silver and Gold? The citations to these medals give the name of the recipient together with the details of the incident in which he or she won their award, and it usually includes the name or names of the people they were involved in saving. So there's still scope for research there. I don't know if there are any printed indices for these awards. Any thoughts?

Secondly, has anyone looked into the book on hospital ships that I mentioned earlier in this thread? It's on the 'ships and navies' sub-forum. I'll try posting there if no-one responds to this.

Thirdly, I found a list of survivors from the Glenart Castle. Apparently there were 4 RAMC survivors, but only 3 are listed, and Harry's not one of them.....! Was he the 4th man, and he isn't on the list because he didn't actually survive? More questions! So close, yet so far......

Anyway, here's the list, it's from this website; http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/Letters/HMHSGlenartCastlewasnotth.html

Edit; rather frustratingly the list comes out in a very garbled fashion, so I'll have to find some other way of posting it.

Suffice to say that these are 3 of the 4 RAMC survivors;

S.R. PRATT Trinity Lane, Hinkley, Leicestershire

Cpl. H. FULCHER Princes Avenue, Hull

Cpl. W. FORBES Leighbank, Craigellachie, Banffshire

Survivors were landed by an American torpedo-boat destroyer, and by the French schooner 'Feon'.

Someone must know something about these men; service papers, AVL's, newspaper reports, etc.

[kenf48]

;Anyway, here's the list, it's from this website;<br><br><font face="Georgia,"><a href="http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/Letters/HMHSGlenartCastlewasnotth.html" class="bbc_url" title="External link" rel="nofollow external">http://ahoy.tk-jk.ne...lewasnotth.html</a></font><br><br>Edit; rather frustratingly the list comes out in a very garbled fashion, so I'll have to find some other way of posting it.<div><br></div><div>Suffice to say that these are 3 of the 4 RAMC survivors;</div><div><br></div><div>S.R. PRATT<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Trinity Lane, Hinkley, Leicestershire</div><div>Cpl. H. FULCHER<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Princes Avenue, Hull</div><div>Cpl. W. FORBES<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Leighbank, Craigellachie, Banffshire</div><div><br></div><div>Survivors were landed by an American torpedo-boat destroyer, and by the French schooner 'Feon'.</div><div><br></div><div>Someone must know something about these men; service papers, AVL's, newspaper reports, etc.</div>

Yes, that is a bit garbled

Seriously, and sorry it's off topic (but given what's gone on with this thread) are you editing on a Mac/Safari?

see my post here http://1914-1918.inv...1

Ken

Edit oh you fixed it!

Edited 2 September , 2010 by kenf48

[headgardener]

Here's the MIC for the only S.R. Pratt in the RAMC; Samuel R. PRATT, he's a Pte, 124041

Here are the only 9 FULCHER's in the RAMC; the only H's are a/Cpl. Herbert G. Fulcher, regimental 106437, or Maurice H. FULCHER, who started out as Pte. 98583 but who transferred to various infantry units probably in about 1917. So most likely Herbert. The rank's right, too.

There are several W. FORBES in the RAMC.

2 Walter's;

Pte, 1913

Pte, 318331

Then there are 10 William's;

Pte, 215(something)

Pte, Labour Cps ex RAMC, 212856 (probably his Labour Cps number)

Pte, 1613, transferred Labour Corps, 4364 (perhaps the same man as above)

Pte, 608 (transferred RGA 366613)

Pte, Royal Scots, 38846, transferred RAMC, 168562 (I wonder about this one based on the regimental number and the Scottish connection, although the rank isn't shown as Cpl)

Sgt, 2541, subsequently a/WO2 (this one would have to be a possibility)

Pte, 303425

a/Sgt, 54221 (this one would have to be a distinct possibility)

And two were officers, so definately not them.

There's also a Pte. J.W. FORBES, No. 54528

There's no sign of any of these men on the CWGC database.

So, in terms of regimental numbers:

Harry LUND 115666

Samuel PRATT 124041

Herbert FULCHER 106437

They're probably all from around the same period, give or take a few months. I wonder if that'll reveal anything.

Edit; Ken, just seen your post, and Yes, I AM editing with a Mac using Safari....... Any tips? This has happened to me a few times.

[sutton-in-craven]

Yes this thread has gone a little quiet.

That said there are still lines of enquiry subtly going on under the surface. Louise at Kew, Robert doing a bit of detective work at Sutton cemetery and your latest posts about the 4 RAMC survivors, or 3 if one of them was Harry and he died shortly after. All good stuff.

I think the big one we're all waiting for is the long anticipated meeting between Andy and Harry's relative coming up shortly. At this meeting we are hoping to see a photo of Harry and possibly acquire some more missing pieces of information, however small they may be.

The relative may have a copy of the Death Certificate, if not I will order one.

We're probably getting to the twilight end of the entire investigation, simply because so much information has been uncovered and there's only so much more that can be revealed. Nonetheless, more information will be forthcoming quite shortly.

[Verrico2009]

I'd observed that the enquiry papers in relation to the sinking had been extracted from some other Admiralty papers, so popped back earlier today to have a look at them. They are interesting and I'll add them to the online link I'll create once I'm home.

Once again the unconscious man is mentioned. The USS Parker saw the first survivor at around 12.55pm and noted that the boat had gone down at around 4am. They ended up with 8 survivors and one dead man. The survivors were all quite helpless and the temperature of the water and "choppy sea" are referred to. They landed all survivors at Milford Haven. Can't see anything promising in the Faon's account.

[Old Owl]

Hi Verrico,

Surely the unconscious man must be Harry?

I have found the grave of Sarah Ann Lund, in the graveyard of St Thomas's, Sutton. Unfortunately no other member of the family is mentioned on the grave. I will post photos of the grave early next week.

Robert

[Verrico2009]

Hi Robert - I think so. The reason I'm concentrating on him is that the USS Parker landed the survivors she collected at Milford Haven (which I believe Andy flagged up a while ago as the crucial point), while the Faon (from memory) went to Swansea.

It is a shame that Sarah Ann's grave sits alone. But we're piecing the story together.

Hopefully the DC will shed more light on it - or perhaps Harry's relative can fill us in.

[Verrico2009]

This is the link to the Glenart Castle enquiry papers: http://flickr.com/gp/louiq/G2vx8M Unfortunately, I missed a page of the testimony in the rush. While I doubt there'll be anything specific that will help us, I intend to get back in 3-4 weeks and will scoop this up then, for completeness. The other papers are just loading up...

[headgardener]

I found a list of survivors from the Glenart Castle. Apparently there were 4 RAMC survivors, but only 3 are listed, and Harry's not one of them.....! Was he the 4th man, and he isn't on the list because he didn't actually survive? More questions! So close, yet so far......

......these are 3 of the 4 RAMC survivors;

S.R. PRATT Trinity Lane, Hinkley, Leicestershire

Cpl. H. FULCHER Princes Avenue, Hull

Cpl. W. FORBES Leighbank, Craigellachie, Banffshire

Well done to Verrico for gathering this info.

Further to my earlier post about the RAMC survivors, and whether Harry Lund was the 4th man who wasn't listed, clearly it wasn't him; one of the key witnesses was another RAMC man (L/Cpl Colin BEVERIDGE, 42855) who wasn't on the list I posted earlier.

It doesn't mean that the reports of 4 survivors was necessarily accurate.

I've been through the Hollybrook memorial register on-line and the numbers of casualties don't tally with some of these reports. Maybe some other bodies were recovered and buried on land, which may affect our calculations regarding Harry Lund. Image 1959 states 21 survivors including 3 RAMC men. Well, we've already got 4 RAMC survivors.

The report that Verrico has posted here states that the medical staff included the Lt Col as o.i.c., 5 M.O.'s, 2 Chaplains, 1 Stewardess, 8 nurses and 46 RAMC men. Hollybrook memorial shows the Lt. Col, 4 M.O.'s, 7 nursing staff, and 43 RAMC men (plus the 4 survivors makes 47...?!). (Edit; just checked this against the Times report which gives the number of RAMC men as 47. Also lists 7 M.O.'s and 8 nurses)

Verrico; there's a bit at the bottom of image 1932 that I can't quite read, any clues?

I also have some observations regarding the service numbers of the RAMC men, and will post these later (may give some clues about Harry's previous service).

[Verrico2009]

Hi headgardener - yes, kicking myself for not allowing time to recopy those papers: this was done with the voice booming "please return your papers" and a security guard practically standing over me. And it's bound, rather than loose like service papers or diaries: I didn't have enough hands and no time to improvise with weights. However, I think you'll like the next set, which are almost ready.

The part I can read says:

Ten

[nine] were picked up by the USS Parker. S[hip?] sank before boats could be rigged out. Sur[vivors?] only those who managed to cling to wreckage [or?] life rafts.

Nine

[eight] living and one

dead.

[died on board] Then, very faintly, there's "See signals[...?]"

[Verrico2009]

And the second link: http://flickr.com/gp/louiq/o2025E

[headgardener]

That's excellent work!

So it looks like there may be 2 RHS medal awards, or some other Board of Trade or Foreign Office or whatever, awards to 2 US men involved in rescuing Harry and his shipmates. More work to be done on this one.......

The info just keeps coming! And most of it from you, I might add....!

The U-boat commander's report (image 2030) is particularly interesting, I feel.

[Old Owl]

Hi Verrico,

Great work. Just had a quick glance through and must assume Harry to be the man(page 373) who became delirious once onboard and left the ship unconscious? and presumably died the following day, or was it the same day as the survivors were taken ashore? ie. the day following the sinking.

Speak to you soon,

Robert

[Old Owl]

That's excellent work!

So it looks like there may be 2 RHS medal awards, or some other Board of Trade or Foreign Office or whatever, awards to 2 US men involved in rescuing Harry and his shipmates. More work to be done on this one.......

The info just keeps coming! And most of it from you, I might add....!

The U-boat commander's report (image 2030) is particularly interesting, I feel.

Hi Headgardner,

I'm not sure that the RHS citations are readily available for silver awards. Most of the bronze awards can be accessed on line but the silver ones have to be accessed through the RHS, and I found them to be relatively unhelpful when I contacted them several years ago. Maybe things have moved on since then? I'm sure that a forum member may be able to help with this or alternatively Roger Willoughby of Specialist Medals may be able to help?

Robert

[Verrico2009]

That's excellent work!

Very kind, thanks. Just great timing that I happened to be heading for Kew and spotted the extra reference. More Serendipity! But it takes the experts to make sense of it: RHS to me is the Royal Horticultural Society and I wasn't aware that Harlow Carr was a major area of operations!

[Verrico2009]

Great work. Just had a quick glance through and must assume Harry to be the man(page 373) who became delirious once onboard and left the ship unconscious? and presumably died the following day, or was it the same day as the survivors were taken ashore? ie. the day following the sinking.

Thanks too, Robert. That's my assumption also. It would have helped if they'd indicated whether he was Army or crew, but I can't see anyone else who fits. I imagine that as they couldn't identify him and the ship took the hit at 4am he was out of uniform. You'll note estimates of 5 minutes (I've seen 4) before the ship sank, rather than the 10 that the official papers seem to conclude: either way, not much time for anything, especially in the dark, cold and hostile conditions (reports of the lights going out quickly etc). Shame that nobody knew him and he's never mentioned again. But again, it may be helped by the DC. I will definitely get a proper note of the time the USS Parker landed her survivors, but my impression is that, after several hours of looking for more survivors, they headed for the shore and landed that day. It would seem, assuming it's Harry, once he was rescued he survived for anything from a few hours to over 24.

[headgardener]

RHS = Royal Humane Society.

Do try to keep up......

A further item of note; in the 2nd document there's a letter from one of the survivors, Joseph Sadler, which is dated about 2 and a half weeks after the sinking. He praises the gallantry of the US sailors, and then goes on to say that he's just signed articles for the HS 'Panama', meaning that he's just about to go to sea again just over 2 and a half weeks after being dragged out of the sea half dead (judging by the reports on the rescue of the survivors). Can't imagine that happening these days....... (a good job too, I might add).

Robert,

Yes, I've heard that the RHS weren't that 'user-friendly', but maybe that was in the old days (i.e. pre-'Who do you think you are?')? I'll send an e-mail, see what they say. I'm doubting that there'll be much more info than is contained in the reports that we've just read, but we won't know unless we check. And it would add some further interest to the whole story if we can establish that some of the men who rescued Harry were decorated for their efforts.

Am very keen to see the photo after all this. And the DC may certainly fill in some blanks.

[Old Owl]

Hi Verrico and Headgardner,

I am a little mystified as to how they could have identified Harry? If none of the survivors knew him, then surely they would have checked the body for dogtags? If he had no dogtags and of course there were no DNA or dental records to fall back on, then how did they know who he was? They couldn't work by a process of elimination as this would have been impossible, unless all the bodies were recovered and identified--which I am sure did not happen.

Um, seems there's a little work to do on this? Yet again how did the report appear so soon after in the Keighley News naming Harry as lost? and quote "-- His name does not appear in the list of survivors".

I suppose being really silly, that it is possible that he could have stolen someone else's identity, and literally disappeared--getting very silly now!! It does make you wonder though?? I guess that we may have to apply to have the body exhumed and DNA tests run against his surviving relatives!!

Sorry I'm going to stop now before this goes too far!! The 'Blockbuster' theory appears to be gathering pace? Where will this end?

Robert

[Verrico2009]

Robert,

As you know, I've wondered about this too. One thing that has occurred to me is that the Faon landed her survivors relatively nearby. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that one of Harry's colleagues or superiors managed to get across to see just who had survived and recognised him. Alternatively, it's not unknown for unconscious men to regain consciousness but still nothing can be done to save them. It was the USS Parker's job to land her survivors ashore: I guess that it was job done and it wasn't of any further official interest to them. Amongst the survivors there must have been someone who knew Harry. Sadly the unconscious man ended up on the boat with the smallest number of survivors and randomly no-one knew him there. The other 7 survivors might have joined up with the rest of the survivors quite quickly. What we haven't got so far is the list of survivors and the list of the men who embarked (I had a vain hope the latter might be at Kew but I don't think there's anything left there to explore).

But nothing wrong with a little imagination and drama!

[Camera 1] Andy (speaking into earphone): Robert,what do you mean you've blown the petrol budget - who do you think we are: Steven Spielberg? We need you at Milford Haven in 20 minutes! No I don't care how you get there - start hitching, man...