The HARRY LUND investigation by 'Team Harry'

[Verrico2009]

Anyone know what TC means? Training College perhaps?

I was thinking "Training Corps".

Just been having a nosey myself: noted that the bodies weren't found - the War Office accepted their deaths as a result of the lapse of time.

[sutton-in-craven]

Reposting the information again with probably the key evidence that indicates they were all in TC (?) R or S Company. Anyone know what TC means? Training College perhaps? I suspect I'm about to learn something...

Military abbreviations gives 38 possibilities!

TC ¹training circular, ²Transportation Corps, ³technical coordinator, ⁴type classification [Army], ⁵Transportation Center and School, ⁶tactical computer, ⁷tantalum capacitor, ⁸technical committee, ⁹test conductor, ¹⁰technical control, ¹¹test console, ¹²temperature coefficient, ¹³temperature compensating, ¹⁴terminal computer, ¹⁵test case specification, ¹⁶thermocouple, ¹⁷thermocurrent, ¹⁸thrust chamber, ¹⁹time constant, ²⁰timed closing, ²¹tracking camera, ²²transmission control, ²³[NATO] transit corridor, ²⁴transfer channel, ²⁵transition components (WIS), ²⁶transportation coordinator, ²⁷test control, ²⁸traffic control, ²⁹training camp, ³⁰training center, ³¹target complete, ³²type certificate, ³³[JP 1-02] tidal current, ³⁴[JP 1-02] transmit clock, ³⁵[JP 1-02] telemetry combiner, ³⁶[AR 310-50] technical characteristics, ³⁷[AR 310-50] transaction code, ³⁸[AR 310-50] trial counsel

[mmm45]

Have also seen Training Cadre

Ady

[sutton-in-craven]

I’ve checked several other abbreviation sites and Troop Carrier comes up quite a bit. The only other common one is Tank Corps, but that’s not going to apply in our case.

[Andy Wade]

Almost without exception they're all being called up from the reserve on 7/8/9/10 August 1917 and going to 'TC'. Then straight to HS Glenart Castle, almost all embarking on 25th Feb 1918. It fair stands to reason that TC would mean some kind of training establishment.

The fact that they're either in R Coy or S coy suggests (to me at least) that there were two courses of training, perhaps for two medical disciplines. Straw firmly clutched but, well, you know...

Oh, I got promoted a few posts back and I never even got to put a half crown behind the bar...

[BJanman]

Training Centre - definitely training centre. It says so in the medical official history

[Verrico2009]

Oh, I got promoted a few posts back and I never even got to put a half crown behind the bar...

I hope they accept "real money" in the Volunteers!

I'm aiming to get my 1,000th here - who knows, you could too...

[Old Owl]

Almost without exception they're all being called up from the reserve on 7/8/9/10 August 1917 and going to 'TC'. Then straight to HS Glenart Castle, almost all embarking on 25th Feb 1918. It fair stands to reason that TC would mean some kind of training establishment.

The fact that they're either in R Coy or S coy suggests (to me at least) that there were two courses of training, perhaps for two medical disciplines. Straw firmly clutched but, well, you know...

Oh, I got promoted a few posts back and I never even got to put a half crown behind the bar...

I would say definitely either Training Centre or Training Cadre. As for the Companies, R and S, more likely same course being taught, in effect, to two seperate classes? Then again----?

[Verrico2009]

Training Centre - definitely training centre. It says so in the medical official history

Pah - there's always an expert who comes along and spoils the fun: I wanted it to be "⁶tactical computer, ⁷tantalum capacitor,"!

[Old Owl]

I hope they accept "real money" in the Volunteers!

I'm aiming to get my 1,000th here - who knows, you could too...

What, pints--blooming heck, you can't half knock 'em back!! You only found the Volunteers on saturday afternoon!!

[Andy Wade]

One other thing that leapt out of the service records is that quite a number were originally medically downgraded (very poor eyesight, severe varicose veins) and in some cases described as 'unfit for any kind of service', then later 'possibly suitable for RAMC?' Which might mean this would lessen their chances of survival when dumped in the sea on a cold February morning. The weather for that particular year showed snow in the North and West of the country. How any of them survived at all is a miracle to be honest.

[Old Owl]

One other thing that leapt out of the service records is that quite a number were originally medically downgraded (very poor eyesight, severe varicose veins) and in some cases described as 'unfit for any kind of service', then later 'possibly suitable for RAMC?' Which might mean this would lessen their chances of survival when dumped in the sea on a cold February morning. The weather for that particular year showed snow in the North and West of the country. How any of them survived at all is a miracle to be honest.

Absolutely. I expect that Harry's record would have said: 'Injury to left shoulder--medically downgraded' or something similar---back to that old bike again:

[Verrico2009]

Making up for lost time, Robert - and it serves Timmy Taylors!

Yes, Andy. I think it would be a feat of serious endurance these days, let alone then. I'll definitely get the bound reports out again and make a note of when they were finally dropped off at Milford Haven.

[sutton-in-craven]

Don't you guys ever sleep over there – what time is it!

Email sent Louise

Actually I don't even like the cold February rain droplets hitting the back of my neck. I cannot imagine being dunked into the Bristol Channel in the middle of Feb, with all the chaos and carnage that the torpedo caused. Plus the over-sized bike shoulder injury to Our Harry would have made swimming nigh on impossible. No wonder he didn't make it.

Off to work now, night night all

[headgardener]

Pah - there's always an expert who comes along and spoils the fun: I wanted it to be "⁶tactical computer, ⁷tantalum capacitor,"!

TC = 'Training Centre'

And it also = what Top Cat's best friends get to call him, according to the words of the song.........

Andy,

'R' and 'S' Companies were unlikely to be for differing medical disciplines. Hopefully Barbara will come back with something more concrete, but I think that they were just different training establishments, places where new recruits learned the basics about soldiering and First-Aiding. The sort of 'disciplines' that would have been taught there would have been boot-polishing, marching, spud-peeling, wound dressing, etc, etc. The 'disciplines' that you're thinking of would have been learned on courses at specialized establishments.

Edit; Andy - I see that you came up with quite a few service papers from the group of casualties that I posted on page 12 of this thread. That was only a section of the casualty list. I was using that sample to show that those men came from alphabetical 'blocks'. Harry's number was likely to be a bit earlier than the ones you posted there. Did you have a look any of the other men from the original list that I posted a few pages ago? I thought that we could easily surmise that the men numbered around 122-123,000 would be straight out of a training establishment on the basis of them appearing to be part of these 'blocks', but I wonder about the others, including the men with previous service (see my original post about them). Were we able to show that some (all?) of the men numbered BEFORE Harry had also come straight from RAMC TC's then it would be the confirmation we're looking for.

As for the medical status of the RAMC men, I've long suspected that by late 1917 the RAMC had become the destination for men who were not entirely fit for active service. It was during 1917 that many RAMC men were transferred to fighting units, in many cases against their wishes. There was a lot of disquiet about it, and some men refused to serve in 'fighting' units, saying that they had only agreed to join the RAMC. Many men who were conscripted and had appealed against conscription for conscientious reasons had been persuaded to join the RAMC as it was not strictly a fighting unit, and RAMC orderlies did not carry guns. It also appealed to the consciences of some men who otherwise objected to joining the army. Hence the disquiet when the army forcibly transferred many of them to infantry units. It was in the Army's interests to free up as many 'fighting' men as possible, hence the less fit recruits going to the RAMC as replacements for those that were transferred.

[BJanman]

What I'm posting below is straight from the official history 'Training of Medical Services' section.

"The large number of recruits who enlisted in the R.A.M.C. at the beginning of the war, and the mobilization and training of medical units for the divisions of the new armies called for great expansion of depot accommodation and the establishment of several new training centres. Previous to the war there had only been one depot where young officers and men of the R.A.M.C. were received and trained. It was at Aldershot, had accommodation for 800 only and consisted of three depot companies and a training establishment. ...

The instructional staff for the new training centres was obtained by withdrawing officers and non-commissioned officers of the regular R.A.M.C from the R.A.M.C. Territorial Force schools of instruction which were permanent institutions in time of peace. Each of the new centres held from 1,500 to 4,000 recruits, and 2 or 3 regular R.A.M.C. officers and 6 to 8 non-commissioned officers were allotted to each. The training consisted of the usual training in military duties, drill, and stretcher-bearer work. Each training centre was sufficiently large to require a camp hospital of its own, and the men were attached to it in batches for training in hospital duties, although it was recognised that this was inadequate and could only be regarded as a preliminary introduction to their training in nursing duties ....... [i’ve read that some later recruits were sent to work in the military and war hospitals in the Command areas for training, which also helped release trained medical staff for active service overseas]

The whole system of training the R.A.M.C. was changed towards the end of 1916 and beginning of 1917, when the Aldershot depot and the various training centres were transferred to Blackpool and concentrated there under an administrative headquarters. At first each of the old centres retained its individuality at Blackpool, with its own instructional staff and organization; each also maintained a depot for mobilizing new units and providing reinforcement drafts. The men were placed in billets and trained on the sea-shore or promenade of Blackpool. But this organisation was broken up in July 1917. One large training centre with a separate depot was then formed under the command of a surgeon-general."

The OH also refers to men who were originally medically downgraded being employed into the R.A.M.C. and explains why but it's late now and my bed is calling me so will try and post another time - if it really is of interest to any one.

Barbara

[Verrico2009]

Don't you guys ever sleep over there – what time is it!

Email sent Louise

...I cannot imagine being dunked into the Bristol Channel in the middle of Feb, with all the chaos and carnage that the torpedo caused. Plus the over-sized bike shoulder injury to Our Harry would have made swimming nigh on impossible. No wonder he didn't make it.

Sleep is for wimpzzzz... Whaaaat - did I miss something?

Thanks, Andrew.

You'll recall from the notes in one of the reports comments to the effect the only ones to survive were those who managed to cling to the lifeboats or wreckage.

[Verrico2009]

As for the medical status of the RAMC men, I've long suspected that by late 1917 the RAMC had become the destination for men who were not entirely fit for active service.

Interesting, headgardener. I can't quite remember Mona's exact words, but I got the impression that Harry would have preferred to be in a fighting unit: something like he "couldn't" be in the infantry. From the photos, he looks to be a fit, strapping lad. Robert, I remember you saying something about it because it was the first time I'd heard this: so I learned something!

[Verrico2009]

The OH also refers to men who were originally medically downgraded being employed into the R.A.M.C. and explains why but it's late now and my bed is calling me so will try and post another time - if it really is of interest to any one.

It is to me - an opportunity to learn something about this aspect in context. Never know when it might come in useful.

[Verrico2009]

Here's my best shot at brushing up the photo of Harry with the (offending?) bike: The Bike, courtesy of Robert. Andy will probably be along with a better clean-up shortly.

[Old Owl]

Here's my best shot at brushing up the photo of Harry with the (offending?) bike: The Bike, courtesy of Robert. Andy will probably be along with a better clean-up shortly.

That looks pretty good to me--must be a great photographer!! What did you say his name was?

[Verrico2009]

Harry Cartier Bresson, of course! Or Robert Capa, if you prefer...

[Old Owl]

Harry Cartier Bresson, of course! Or Robert Capa, if you prefer...

Excellent! Well done lads!

Have you got their email addresses?

[Andy Wade]

Cleaned it up a bit. Might try a grayscale version but I like the sepia:

I removed the scratches so there's no arguments about any handcuffs being on this picture.

[Old Owl]

Thanks for that Andy. Yes, it looks excellent and the original is sepia as well.

I'm not sure you can improve on that?

Robert

PS Did you see my enquiry ref. Yorkshire Hussars on the Keighley History Day?