The HARRY LUND investigation by 'Team Harry'

[Old Owl]

Just sent, Robert.

That's a thought. Hopefully someone knows.

Congratulations! Back to The Volunteers for a swift pint, I take it?!

Oh, I think that more than one should be in order for such a promotion--I've almost caught up my son-in-law, but then he's a real soldier--but I could overtake him if I try really hard!!

What a coup that would be!! Watch out James.

[Andy Wade]

Any better? This is from the scans you did Louise.

[Old Owl]

That looks good.

I think I should still try and get another copy from the original, just for the file, if nothing else. Louise has sent me Mona's email--so hopefully should be able to arrange this for later in the week.

Robert

[Verrico2009]

It's fine - at least it was an all-singing all-dancing scanner (even if it didn't seem to talk to the computers!). But I agree with Robert that a photographic copy for the records is a good idea. Just embarrassed at missing it out: how much of a chocolate fireguard of a back-up was I?

Anyway, I'm sure Mona will be happy to keep in touch.

[Verrico2009]

Regarding the fact that he's buried on land, I posted AGES ago that there must be info on a DC as his death was recorded as occurring on the FOLLOWING day to the sinking. Yes, it is possible that the CWGC records are a day out, but on balance of probability I'd say that he was almost certainly one of the survivors brought ashore and that he died in hospital as a result of his injuries or from hypothermia, etc. DC will reveal all, I reckon......

Including details of his unit........

There - I knew there was a coherent reason for wanting the DC! If we can get details of his unit, I assume we can get a bit of detail of his service from the appropriate war diary? I'm aware it won't give us any references to him, but it could help build up a picture of what his service entailed hopefully.

[Martin Bennitt]

Congratulations everyone in Team Harry. Great detective work. Could merit Classic Thread status IMHO

cheers Martin B

[Old Owl]

It's fine - at least it was an all-singing all-dancing scanner (even if it didn't seem to talk to the computers!). But I agree with Robert that a photographic copy for the records is a good idea. Just embarrassed at missing it out: how much of a chocolate fireguard of a back-up was I?

Anyway, I'm sure Mona will be happy to keep in touch.

I have sent an email to Mona requesting a possible retake of 'Harry and his bike', so am hoping to hear from her before too long.

I know that it is not important but I just wondered where this photo was taken--I suppose that it could have been in Sutton Park or possibly on the driveway to Sutton Hall/Sutton Clough. If anyone from Sutton has been watching this drama unfold--I wonder if they have any ideas?

Getting down to the real detail now!!

[mmm45]

There is one unknown male, age 30 (assumed?), March Quarter 1918, Pembroke 11a 1414.

Ref Death Cert Phil from Rootschat found this lad??

possible

Ady

[Old Owl]

Congratulations everyone in Team Harry. Great detective work. Could merit Classic Thread status IMHO

cheers Martin B

On behalf of 'Team Harry' --Thank you very much indeed for your comments.

Robert

[Old Owl]

There is one unknown male, age 30 (assumed?), March Quarter 1918, Pembroke 11a 1414.

Ref Death Cert Phil from Rootschat found this lad??

possible

Ady

Hi Ady,

Thank you very much indeed for the pointer--I'm sure that our very own 'rottweiler' from Leeds, will soon be giving this one an extra good shake to see what drops out!!

It's over to you now Verrico:

[sutton-in-craven]

Morning folks, I step away from my computer for a few hours to find another 20 posts on Our Harry!

As an ex-Suttoner, I immediately recognized the location of the bike photo as the bottom end of Sutton Clough, which formed part of the Hall Estate. This is where the manufacturer John William Hartley built Sutton Hall in 1894 and the very imposing drive entrance to the hall at a reputed cost of 40,000 quid. It was demolished in 1940. The gates to this archway were removed at the commencement of WW2 to stop them being melted down and now hang at the entrance to Cliffe Castle in Keighley. Beyond this archway (photo below) is Sutton Clough where Our Harry is riding his bike, it's literally around the corner from West Lane where he, his mum and sister lived.

Headgardener, well done on spotting the grave-stone for Harry. This had previously been posted by Ady (mmm45), however the snap of the actual Pembroke Dock Military cemetery itself is new so that's great. I'll be adding this cemetery snap to Harry's profile, along with the grave-stone of course.

Funny you should say that, Robert - I noticed "swooshes" on one or two of mine! And of course this being Yorkshire and it being nowt more than a wild and wet walk o'er tops t'Haworth, it'll be that 'Eathcliffe fella: he's everywhere.

That does it, I'm digging my Kate Bush LP out tonight to play whilst 'wuthering' down a slab of turps to Our Harry!

[Verrico2009]

There is one unknown male, age 30 (assumed?), March Quarter 1918, Pembroke 11a 1414.

Ref Death Cert Phil from Rootschat found this lad??

possible

Ady

Many thanks, Ady. I haven't tried ordering up a DC for an unidentified man but I'll have a look into how you do it (unless another Pal has experience of this and can give guidance?).

What puzzles me is I would have thought that John Thomas needed to produce a DC to the name of Samuel/Harry Lund for the probate process.

[headgardener]

Just to follow up on a couple of points;

I've slightly amended my previous post (No.208 on this thread) to include the first names of the other RAMC men from the Glenart Castle, just in case anyone with access to Ancestry wants to look at their service records to see whether they all joined the Glenart Castle at the same time, and whether any of them ever had a link to the RND (I still suspect that the RND reference is an understandable mistake made by the family).

The fact that many of them had similar service is borne out by the fact that alphabetical patterns are visible in some of the numbered 'blocks' of casualties, suggesting that these men came straight from a depot to the Glenart Castle.

For example;

123854 Bamford, Ernest

123869 Behnam, Harry

123911 Blench, William

123940 Jardine, Joseph

123943, Lyon, Gilchrist

123950 Wright, John

123979 Rogers, Percy

123987 Wright, Thomas Henry

123992 Abrahamson, A

123997 Clamp, Charles

123999 Donnelly, Henry

124010 Meekin, James (SDGW shows his name as McMEEKIN)

124014 Parry, John

124041 Pratt, SR (survived)

124045 Smith, William Alfred

I'd suggest that these represent 4 consecutive number 'blocks' from which the Glenart Castle men were chosen.

There are a couple of very interesting points arising from Barbara's research, one of them being the fact that only one of the men whose service details she's found was a 'direct' enlistment (i.e. he enlisted and mobilized on the same day), all the rest were 'deferred' enlistements, often with considerable periods between enlistment and mobilization. Some of them were clearly Derby Scheme men, but several appear to have enlisted long after the Derby Scheme had been replaced by conscription. It's a very interesting observation (if you're interested in that sort of thing....) which I still can't quite make sense of, and I really do feel that there's still potential for uncovering something about Harry's service from analyzing the service of those men who we can research (which is why I've amended my list in Post No.208....).

As for the photos of Harry and his bike, is it just me or does it look incredibly high for a boy of his age and size? Maybe that's just the way old bikes were. It's a long way to fall if he came off, so no wonder that he might sustain a nasty injury. Especially if the branch of a bush got caught in his spokes while he was 'swooshing' past it in the park........

Edit; I also noticed that there were about 3 or 4 Jewish names amongst the casualties, so I wonder if there might be some service details to be found in the Jewish Roll of Honour?

[Andy Wade]

I reckon it's his father's bike at Sutton.

Definitely too big for him, if my fading memory serves it would be no obstacle for the average lad to overcome. It would be nice if it was the offending velocipede.

[Chris Foster]

Its been fascinating watching Harry's story unfold. Well done once again to all concerned and well done Andrew for posting the original query in the first place

Regards

Chris

[Andy Wade]

123854 Bamford, Ernest:

Attested 10th Dec 1915.To reserve 11th Dec 1915

Mobilized 23rd Aug 1916

Relegated 24th Aug 1916

Re-Mobilizede 7th Aug 1917

Posted 9th Aug 1917

Home from 19th Dec 1915 to 24 Feb 1918.

Glenart Castle -Reported missing believed drowned 26 Feb 1918

Drowned 26 Feb 1918

123869 Behnam, Harry:

MiC only - Vict and BWM - no other info.

123911 Blench, William:

Attested 2 Jun 1916

To reserve 2 Jun 1916

Discharge med unfit 31 Aug 1916

Mobilized 9 Aug 1917

Posted RAMC 9 Aug 1917

Posted 19 Aug 17

Granted 5th rate corps pay 29 Dec 1917

Glenart Castle - Drowned 26 Feb 1918

123940 Jardine, Joseph:

General service (deemed to have been enlisted) 24 Jun 1916

Posted RAMC 2 Aug 1917

Glenart Castle - Embarked 25 Feb 1918

Missing Believed drowned 26 Feb 1918

123979 Rogers, Percy:

26 Jul 1916 Varicose veins - unfit for any service - May be suitable for RAMC 30 May 1917.

General service 17 Jun 1917

Called up 9 Aug 1917

Posted 10 Aug 1917

Embarked 25 Feb 1918

Missing Believed drowned 26 Feb 1918

[Andy Wade]

123987 Wright, Thomas Henry:

General service (deemed to have been enlisted) 28 May 1916

Called up 8 Aug 1917

Posted 9 Aug 1917

Embarked 25 Feb 1918

Missing Believed drowned 26 Feb 1918

123943 Gilchrist, Lyon:

General service (deemed to have been enlisted) 2 Mar 1916

Called up 2 Aug 1917

Posted 10 Aug 1917

Embarked 25 Feb 1918

Missing Believed drowned 26 Feb 1918.

From what I've found so far the trend looks as if a lot of these men were mobilised or posted in Aug 1917 - was this when lists were being drawn up for the Glenart Castle? Or just lists of available men to be sent somewhere or available for some kind of service together?

[sutton-in-craven]

Thanks Chris, I'd love to take the credit for creating 'Harry mania', but in truth I simply asked the question "R.A.M.C. (ATT. R.N.D.) what does this mean?"

266 replies and 3,886 viewings later, my little inquiry has turned out to be bigger than Ben Hur!

I reckon the bike belonged to Harry's brother John Thomas who was 10 years older than Harry (Samuel senior, the shepherd on the Laycock farm wouldn't have had a bike I don't think). John was probably working whilst Harry took the bike for a spin, only to fall off at some stage and do himself some mischief.

[Verrico2009]

This is where the manufacturer John William Hartley built Sutton Hall in 1894 and the very imposing drive entrance to the hall at a reputed cost of 40,000 quid.

Not sure whether any of us have mentioned it yet, but Mona revealed that grandfather Berry was a local mill owner and one of Sarah Ann's sisters married into another mill-owning family. Can't remember the name of the family off the top of my head, but I wonder...

Whether it is that family or not, I think these are the circles the young Harry could have moved in. He may even have been cycling back from a visit to the house itself. He's in his Sunday best - a chain and probably fob-watch at that age?

[27thBN]

Thanks Chris, I'd love to take the credit for creating 'Harry mania', but in truth I simply asked the question "R.A.M.C. (ATT. R.N.D.) what does this mean?"

266 replies and 3,886 viewings later, my little inquiry has turned out to be bigger than Ben Hur!

I reckon the bike belonged to Harry's brother John Thomas who was 10 years older than Harry (Samuel senior, the shepherd on the Laycock farm wouldn't have had a bike I don't think). John was probably working whilst Harry took the bike for a spin, only to fall off at some stage and do himself some mischief.

What about T Shirts " I Know about Harry " Sponsored by GWF

:lol:

[Andy Wade]

Not sure whether any of us have mentioned it yet, but Mona revealed that grandfather Berry was a local mill owner and one of Sarah Ann's sisters married into another mill-owning family. Can't remember the name of the family off the top of my head, but I wonder...

Whether it is that family or not, I think these are the circles the young Harry could have moved in. He may even have been cycling back from a visit to the house itself. He's in his Sunday best - a chain and probably fob-watch at that age?

His boots could be 'hand me downs', they're too big for him anyway. Maybe that's why he fell off the bike.

I think that gateway pictured in the card Andrew posted above is now surrounded by houses. I'll have to pop over sometime and have a look. I don't suppose the woodland 'road' will still look like that today.

[Verrico2009]

I know of a Lord's son who was still wearing his grandfather's hand-me-downs not so very long ago,Andy. And northern thrift is legendary! Possibly also not allowed to wear his best shoes on the bike. Mona referred to it as Sutton Park - has it ever been public land?

[Andy Wade]

The entrance gatehouse is just on a road within a housing estate so at least some of it has been sold off for development:

Image courtesy of the excellent Google Maps Street View

Sutton Park as it is known today is just a small park within the village. I'm not sure if it was originally part of the Sutton Hall Estate. These things often were, particularly around these parts.

[ianw]

Thanks to all the team for a most enjoyable thread. Has it been reported for classic status. Certainly deserved.

I suppose we all enjoy such threads because of the thrill of the chase and the simple fact that when we remember one, we remember them all.

As other people have commented, the photo of Harry with the vase is a gem. Suddenly with the various pictures , he comes alive. He certainly deserved to be remembered.

[Verrico2009]

Great work on the service numbers and papers by Barbara, headgardener and Andy there: the sort of thing that makes novices like me gawp! It's the serious stuff: making sense of it all...

Good to see the impressive gatehouse still standing. Wouldn't mind that as my view! Yes, as I was discussing with Robert on Saturday - in much the same way as the Fielden family dominated Todmorden.

Ah, but Andrew - you set the ball rolling. If it hadn't been that, I'm sure you'd have been along with another question such as "can it really refer to Stephen?" (as originally posited). It just happens that the timing's been perfect in a lot of respects. Serendipity - kick back and enjoy!

I've applied for a DC - gone for the more manual version, adding Harry's name and flagging up the reference number as a possibility. ETA is 4 October. So either we'll know more then or I'll get a call from a disgruntled employee!

Thanks, Chris and Ian. I agree: it's about all of them but I think from time to time it helps to focus on one as being representative. And everybody responds to seeing such photos.

Go Team Harry! ^TM