The HARRY LUND investigation by 'Team Harry'

[Old Owl]

Hi Verrico,

Ok, I'm still here, but I must pay more attention in future and as my school report frequently used to say 'he could do better'. I am trying, honest, VERY TRYING some might say!!

Now, the West Lane versus West Street business is really getting down the 'nitty gritty'. Unfortunately I do not have an A-Z of the area, mainly because I live less than 3 miles from Sutton and know the area fairly well. I have done the Google map thing which only gives West Lane, however I do know that there are at least a couple of small streets off the bottom end of West Lane and it is possible that one of these may be West Street? I shall have a run out and see what I can see--I will report back later.

I think that your suggestion regarding checking the medal rolls may produce something, but again it is a very slim chance and may only confirm that which we already know--but well worth a go. Go for it girl!!

If someone could track down his service record then that would be the icing on the cake. I do feel that the 'RND' may be a misnomer or 'red herring' and may have come simply from a misunderstanding ie. 'that because he died whilst aboard ship(or more likely in the water) that he was attached to the Royal Navy or a Division of the Royal Navy and hence 'Royal Naval Division'. Most people would have heard of both these but may not have understood the complexities and differences between them? It's only a theory--but there may be many dogs barking up the wrong tree or indeed 'no tree at all'?

Please don't shout at me if I'm wrong again.

Regards, Robert

[Verrico2009]

Great stuff, Robert. I was thinking an on-the-ground reccie might be in order but I couldn't get around to it immediately.

Just a thought - as a local you're probably already aware, but when I lived on the outskirts of Todmorden, all our row were odd-numbered but there wasn't a corresponding row with even numbers. It seems the farm owner must have speculated on the mills springing up in the valley but never had the money to complete the project. I didn't mind - meant we had a great view of Stoodley Pike! But it could mean you're looking for less houses than the 17 indicated on the sheet - and the numbering is odd only. Unfortunately I can't see the previous or following pages for confirmation at the moment, but I'll work on it. The only other indications on the sheet are a Primrose Pl. and Oaklands.

Hope that helps!

[BJanman]

Hi Barbara - yes, that was me. I was hoping you'd also be a member here.

OK thanks, I will contact you about my website shortly. Here are my thoughts/observations from what has been said here already.

I agree with Headgarderner that it is unlikely he was attached to the RND at the time he died. I have read service records where a man was attached to a hospital, CCS or Field Ambulance and sent to another hospital, CCS or Field Ambulance for temporary duty, but they were also often transferred to different units and it is difficult to know which is which without a service record, however in his letter home he does say that he has been transferred.

I have usually found that any reference to RAMC being attached to a specific division, rather than a medical unit, means they were working in a clerical capacity and the fact that he was a dispensary clerk may tie in with that. I have a friend, RAMC retired, who was a dispenser so I will ask him what work a dispensary clerk did in the RAMC but it may be a short while before I see him to ask though.

There is also one small possibility that he enlisted early into another regiment/navy etc under the name Samuel Lund and then transferred into the RAMC under the name Harry Lund late 1916 - early 1917. I have come across situations where men have two MICs with different names but the record office has link them together. Is there a possibility that they couldn’t link him? This may explain why he is disappearing under the official radar - this is only me thinking out aloud but at this stage I wouldn’t rule anything out.

I have a list of men who received awards whilst serving with the RND and did a quick search on the MICs to see if any pattern emerged. Strangely I couldn’t trace any of them but only did a couple with unusual surnames. I have no idea why that would be!!

I would contact the CWGC first to see if they have any information on him. Terry Denham and Chrisharley9 are the best people on the forum to help you there but I think they are busy with the IFTC project so will probably not read this thread. I quick question in the cemeteries section about the men who lost their lives in sinking of the ship and the fact that he is not on the list of casualties may attract their attention or maybe send one of them a PM.

Barbara

[headgardener]

Well, I don't want to keep banging on about cemetery registers, but I wonder what the CWGC 'unit' is for the other RAMC men who lost their lives on the Glenart Castle? As well as for our man......

Barbara's suggestion about service with 2 different units is plausible, but we've looked pretty extensively at the MIC's for Lund, and I certainly checked various permutations of his name and unit on TNA's database, so I'd discount the idea that there's another period of service lurking amongst the MIC's. It's much more likely that he may have joined up 'early' (presumably '14 or '15) and transferred to the RAMC in '16 or '17 as per Barbara's calculations.

[Old Owl]

Great stuff, Robert. I was thinking an on-the-ground reccie might be in order but I couldn't get around to it immediately.

Just a thought - as a local you're probably already aware, but when I lived on the outskirts of Todmorden, all our row were odd-numbered but there wasn't a corresponding row with even numbers. It seems the farm owner must have speculated on the mills springing up in the valley but never had the money to complete the project. I didn't mind - meant we had a great view of Stoodley Pike! But it could mean you're looking for less houses than the 17 indicated on the sheet - and the numbering is odd only. Unfortunately I can't see the previous or following pages for confirmation at the moment, but I'll work on it. The only other indications on the sheet are a Primrose Pl. and Oaklands.

Hope that helps!

Hi Verrico,

Well I've been there and done it, but unfortuately I didn't get the tee-shirt!! Although I think that I almost qualified for it?

Turning up West Lane from the bottom end there are on the lefthand side a small number of cottages with associated gaps. After approximately 50 yds is a pair of cottages Nos 15 and 17 and immediately above them on the same side are two rows(built at right angles to the road) of moderately substantial Victorian terraced houses. There are 5 or 6 houses in each row and they are not served by any road or street other than West Lane. The lower of these two terraces is called Raspberry Place and the upper one Oaklands, so at least there is some sort of success? albeit only partial.

As luck would have it and before I could knock on any door to see if anyone had heard of either Primrose Place or West Street a lady walked past, so I engaged her in my quandry. She informed me that she had lived just round the corner for 60 years and had never heard of either, so that rather puts an end to any speculation!!? Unless of course Primrose Place was renamed Raspberry Place sometime in the preceeding 60 years? Probably very unlikely but----?

Other than that it would appear to me that the 'West Street' given on the form is almost certainly an error.

I'm not sure that I can add anything else to this, other than to say that the configuration of these properties does seem to fit the virtual map of the census form?

Regards, Robert

[Verrico2009]

The lower of these two terraces is called Raspberry Place and the upper one Oaklands, so at least there is some sort of success? albeit only partial.

Doh! You DO get the Tee-shirt, Robert. Just been back to the original and finally worked out how to upload a section here.

I do apologise. My only excuse is that I was rushed and I've been on the phone for an hour getting my computer sorted. No idea where I got Primrose from - even did a quick check. What was that about paying attention?! Cooking with gas now, though.

Oh yes - and Raspberry Place only has 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9 listed on that page, then it's on to 17, 15 and 13 West Street. So I think you may have been close. Very close...

[Verrico2009]

Barbara - many thanks for bringing your expertise to bear. I would like to think Harry had a year or two of active service in the thick of it: I note the "early" reference may simply mean that he had signed up in 1916 or 17 as indicated by his regimental number.

Headgardener - I'm wondering that too but I'm pleased to say that the time I've spent on the phone was to get the ethernet connection up and running on my computer rather than the painfully slow dongle I've been "making do" with. So your friendly neighbourhood Rottie is now officially "on acid" and will be turning the search engines in that direction before long to see if any pattern emerges, thanks to the info provided by Andy earlier.

[Old Owl]

Whoopee, I'll go back and pick it up right away.

Well, at least that's sorted and as my grandfather always used to say in such cases: 'More haste and less speed and you'll arrive before you've left'. It took me several years to work that one out. But then I was only 42 at the time!!

All's well that ends well and my computer only runs on steam!! We're not as advanced as you city dwellers!! We're too far out for gas and suchlike and have only just recently got onto running water!!

We only need to find a photo of him and some more details of his war service and I think that he will be one of the most researched(in terms of time and number of people involved) soldiers from WW1. Another query for Andrew to cross off the list. It's definitely getting better all the time!!

Robert

[BJanman]

Well, I don't want to keep banging on about cemetery registers, but I wonder what the CWGC 'unit' is for the other RAMC men who lost their lives on the Glenart Castle? As well as for our man......

The CWGC has them listed as Drowned at Sea {From H.S. "Glenart Castle"]. Harry is listed with name, rank, RAMC and date of death only.

If they were serving on the hospital ship then technically that was the unit. With the exception of the Territorial Force, men enlisted into the RAMC and were then posted to join a company, were trained - maybe with a different company and then posted to a unit on active service. They could be moved [posted] around as and when they were needed. This doesn't appear to have been the case when they were setting up medical units to support the newly formed New Army Divisions though, as some were set up in specific areas and it looks as if men purposely enlisted to joined these unit. These units are displaying certain sets of service numbers. There is a big difference in the patterns of service numbers to specific medical units from men already serving in the RAMC at the start of the war, men who enlisted when the Divisions were forming and men who enlisted after. I've been working on the RAMC database for two years now and have still only scratched the surface but I can see certain patterns forming.

Barbara

[headgardener]

The CWGC has them listed as Drowned at Sea {From H.S. "Glenart Castle"]. Harry is listed with name, rank, RAMC and date of death only.

Hi Barbara,

I'm already aware of Harry's entry on the database, and this is why I'm curious to know what the actual register says (some bits and pieces have got left off the database for some reason) and also why I'm curious to know what the entries for the 'Glenart Castle' men say. I agree that it should be 'HS Glenart castle', and this is why I keep banging on about the fact that he couldn't have been 'attd RND' at the time of his death.

Are you saying that you're certain that all the RAMC men who were lost have CWGC entries stating their unit to be 'HS Glenart castle'?

[BJanman]

I have a book of RAMC casualties compiled by the CWGC which provides a bit more information than their database - in some cases. I don't have a copy of the Hollybrook Memorial register but I have copies of other registers and the information appears the same. The book I have lists all the RAMC men commemorated on the Hollybrook memorial and the ships they were on when they died. Some didn't drown as a result of a ship sinking, some died on route home and were buried at sea. I have taken out the men who are listed as Drowned at Sea [from H.S. "Glenart Castle"] and have 55 names listed but I do not know if there are others commemorated elsewhere as I have not transferred the whole book to the database yet - almost there. Also I haven't researched this in any great depth, at the moment I am just compiling a database and adding bits like a jigsaw puzzle to see what come out.

Barbara

[sutton-in-craven]

Gees, I've just found a whole bunch of emails (PMs) going back almost a week! Groveling apologies to all concerned for not responding before now.

When I joined the GWF it wouldn't let me include my preferred (generic) Yahoo email address, the one that I check several times daily, in my personal settings. I had to use the email address associated with my internet service provider, the one that I occasionally check sometimes once a week because it's kind of defunct.

Anyway, I'll keep a closer eye on it from now on.

Robert, thanks very much for driving to Sutton and checking for West St in Sutton. It's now 30 years since I lived in Sutton and I remember Raspberry Place well but was 99% sure there was no West St. Clearly West Lane was the address in question.

OK, I'll PM a few people back

[Verrico2009]

Me! Meeeee! Incoming....

[Andy Wade]

On the 11th September it's National Heritage day and I'm doing a display at Keighley Library about my project as part of our celebration of Keighley History Day.

Nothing to do with this thread I hear you say...

However, the relative of Harry Lund has said she'll be coming along with pictures (yes, you heard it here first folks) of Harry which, (with her permission) I'll be ready to scan and let everyone see on here.

It will also give me a chance to have a proper chat with her about Harry and see if we can get some answers to the myriad questions that have surfaced in this thread.

Assuming the bloodhounds and rottweillers on here haven't found the answers before then.

Naturally I'll try to arrange a meeting before that event if I can, but at least we now know pictures of Harry Lund exist. I expect a few stubbies will be getting drained in Australia with this bit of news.

[sutton-in-craven]

PM sent Louise

A few stubbies, nah this is KEG draining stuff. A PHOTO – yabbadabbadooooooo!!!

This is the best start to a Monday morning I've had in years. I've also read through the PMs that have been back-logged waiting for me to 'discover' them. I've a feeling that more 'Psychic' news may be in the air.

Fantastic work folks, I'm feeling quite, no very high actually and I've only had a cuppa tea!

[Old Owl]

Hi Andy,

Brilliant news. Andrew will be doing cartwheels 'down under', provided he hasn't over done it on the 4x already.

I look forward to catching a glimpse of Harry when you put on your display. Do you need anything for your display? I have a few Keighley related items--just give me a shout if you think I can be of any assistance.

This gets better with every posting--I rather think that Louise was about to say something--perhaps her gas has been cut off!!?

Robert

[Verrico2009]

It never rains but it pours - just been sent some documents on the Verrico family research front (pertaining to the brother of the man in my avatar) but they're taking forever to download. It's beyond psychic - more a Dr Who type crack in the Universe scenario!

Umm - not much to add. Heard from Harry's relative along similar lines earlier today but didn't want to steal Andy's thunder. If I'm not attending a "trash the wedding dress" day as photographer I'll certainly head to Keighley. Unfortunately I won't be driving up from Hebden Bridge as I used to, but can't have everything

I can clear up the 1911 census return mystery, which only came to light last weekend after lots of research from a family friend: he was listed as Harry LORD, the enumerator having inked his name in over the pencilled original. He was living in Wakefield at the time. He seems to have enlisted around April 1917 (but obviously Andy's on to teasing any other details of his service out of the relative) and he had a fiancee.

[Edited to add: definitely a cause for celebration - here's to Harry and the team!]

[mmm45]

Hi i asked a question on another site(Thanks Skewy from Rootschatters) got a favourable result as you can see.

Heres your Long Eaton connection.

There is an Albert Francis Berry Lund and family living on Midland St Long Eaton (less than a mile apart) Albert was discharged from Notts Derbys however i cant link the family by census.

He has left a few quid back in those days

Samuel, otherwise Harry of 60 Wellington-Street Long eaton Derbyshire private R.A.M.C. died 27 February 1918 at the Royal Naval Hospital Pembroke Dock Pembrokeshire Administration (with will) LONDON 9 January to John Thomas Lund farmer. Effects £643 4s.

Source: Ancestry Wills section

Ady

[mmm45]

So looks like his brother got the £643

Ady

[Verrico2009]

Good work, Ady. Andrew will be opening yet another keg tonight! Harry's relative told me that his will (which she has) was dated 24th April 1917, hence the assumption that he enlisted around that time (thanks to headgardener for the suggestion). Of course, there may be other useful facts on it in relation to his service details. I imagine Andy (and his audience!) will get to the see the original in a couple of weeks.

I've asked her if she knows of any link to Albert: it does seem a huge coincidence.

Yes, a decent amount in those days. Hardworking and thrify it seems.

[headgardener]

Harry's relative told me that his will (which she has) was dated 24th April 1917, hence the assumption that he enlisted around that time (thanks to headgardener for the suggestion).

Not exactly, I was saying that wills were more likely to be made out shortly before a man proceeded overseas (I've looked at a lot of wills and probate records, and they can vary as to their relationship to a man's service, but generally they were made out during the period just before going overseas). So this might tally with a period of overseas service starting in mid-1917, perhaps in France with the RND?

More info on the will would be helpful (unit or regiment details, place - if recorded, names and other details of witnesses, etc).

[Verrico2009]

Well, I'd really like him to have signed up and even seen active service earlier but I'd settle for then. At least it all fits in with possible timings so far. Don't worry, headgardener - I'm sure it'll be the most photographed document available that day! Although Andy did say "papers", so maybe there's more. I'll believe anything now...

[Old Owl]

Good Morning Verrico,

The net certainly seems to be spreading far and wide now--I think that we may have his full family tree before long? This is now becoming a really serious research project and I wonder how much further it can go? or indeed how much further Andrew would like to take it?

I think that Harry probably did enlist in the early part of the war (keep it flexible!!) although we may never know exactly? However from my experience the making of a Will was usually something that a soldier/sailor/airman would do only when they were imminently to be posted to a theatre of war--a sort of 'have you made a Will yet, just in case you don't come back' or words to that effect. So in actual fact the making of the Will rarely relates to the date of enlistment, but rather the date of moving into a 'danger zone'. That's my take on it anyhow.

A vast amount of money for an apparently ordinary working class lad? I feel that the farming connection may explain this or indeed some other relative may have left him a tidy sum in their will. I would say that our Harry would have had a pretty bright future by the standards of 1917!!

I am sure that as I write this there will be several 'Beavers' working on the A.F.B.Lund connection?

Speak to you soon, Robert

I have just seen your last two posts, so may have crossed over on this. Robert

Edited 30 August , 2010 by old owl

[headgardener]

Remember that the figure at probate doesn't necessarily imply that he had this money stuffed under his mattress; it represents his gross 'worth' (i.e. it may include the value of his property).

The fact that it says "Administration (with will)" means that for some reason his will was not valid, and the next-of-kin had to apply for Administration, probably based on an interpretation of the wishes expressed in the will. Likely reasons for this would be that he didn't get it witnessed, or that he made an unwitnessed amendment to it, or his principal beneficiary had died and the court had to establish who the next in line would be, or there was some confusion as to who exactly that beneficiary was (i.e. he stated 'Mr. J. Lund', meaning, for example, his brother, but didn't specify an address or any other identifying details - in which case the authorities would have needed some sort of evidence of who exactly 'Mr. J. Lund' was). It'll probably (but not necesarily) be clear once we see the article in question.

[Verrico2009]

True - but as an inheritance still a reasonable amount in those days, however it was realised. I'm not sure how widespread property owning would have been in those days, but it seems he did quite well for himself.

With any luck, the fact that there appears to have been a query will also mean there was a need to produce a death certificate.

Yes, Robert - Andrew will soon be writing a book at this rate!