The HARRY LUND investigation by 'Team Harry'

[27thBN]

So when is the mini series coming out :P

MC

[Verrico2009]

We could get a Richard Burton "War of the Worlds" voiceover "During the four years of the First World War no-one would have believed that in 2010 the members of the Great War Forum would be huddled round their computers focusing on one man..." [Dah dah etc]

[Camera 1] Andy at the Sutton Memorial [wind howling, possibly snowstorm effect]: "I'm here today because of the work of my close friend and colleague Andrew, who joins us live from Australia to tell us how thrilled he is to have pieced together the life of Harry Lund. Then it'll be over to our roving reporter Robert who is doorstepping the locals of Harry's 1901 residence and modelling the "Go Team Harry" T-shirt. Andrew..."

[dodgy satellite link] Andrew: Unaccustomed as I am, etc. Couldn't have done it without the team: honorable mentions etc. Thanks his stylist, florist, next door neighbour's dog etc. Proposes a toast to Harry. [strains of "Farewell Thunderchild"]

Needs a bit of work but I should be able to get something together once I've written my family blockbuster...

[27thBN]

We could get a Richard Burton "War of the Worlds" voiceover "During the four years of the First World War no-one would have believed that in 2010 the members of the Great War Forum would be huddled round their computers focusing on one man..." [Dah dah etc]

[Camera 1] Andy at the Sutton Memorial [wind howling, possibly snowstorm effect]: "I'm here today because of the work of my close friend and colleague Andrew, who joins us live from Australia to tell us how thrilled he is to have pieced together the life of Harry Lund. Then it'll be over to our roving reporter Robert who is doorstepping the locals of Harry's 1901 residence and modelling the "Go Team Harry" T-shirt. Andrew..."

[dodgy satellite link] Andrew: Unaccustomed as I am, etc. Couldn't have done it without the team: honorable mentions etc. Thanks his stylist, florist, next door neighbour's dog etc. Proposes a toast to Harry. [strains of "Farewell Thunderchild"]

Needs a bit of work but I should be able to get something together once I've written my family blockbuster...

And then the Aliens arrive with his full service record,Email it down to his mobile phone and one of the mysteries of the Great War has been solved :lol:

Cheers

[Verrico2009]

Something for everyone! Dr Who could take us all back to rescue the records in the first place. But who to play Harry? My vote would be a digitally younger Sean Bean - as far as most of the world's concerned one Yorkshire accent is much like another (I speak as a Londoner!) and he does "eeee bah gum" with the best of them.

[Old Owl]

We could get a Richard Burton "War of the Worlds" voiceover "During the four years of the First World War no-one would have believed that in 2010 the members of the Great War Forum would be huddled round their computers focusing on one man..." [Dah dah etc]

[Camera 1] Andy at the Sutton Memorial [wind howling, possibly snowstorm effect]: "I'm here today because of the work of my close friend and colleague Andrew, who joins us live from Australia to tell us how thrilled he is to have pieced together the life of Harry Lund. Then it'll be over to our roving reporter Robert who is doorstepping the locals of Harry's 1901 residence and modelling the "Go Team Harry" T-shirt. Andrew..."

[dodgy satellite link] Andrew: Unaccustomed as I am, etc. Couldn't have done it without the team: honorable mentions etc. Thanks his stylist, florist, next door neighbour's dog etc. Proposes a toast to Harry. [strains of "Farewell Thunderchild"]

Needs a bit of work but I should be able to get something together once I've written my family blockbuster...

I think you're really onto something here(or should I say on something here). Were you a film Producer/Director in a former life? At your work rate you'll have it in the Box Office before 11th November!!

What an imagination!!

[Verrico2009]

Rooibus tea - gotta watch that vanilla extract! Of course, but then I was (probably) also Antony and Cleopatra, Shakespeare and Marie Antoinette (in no particular order)...

[sutton-in-craven]

LOL, what a great idea about a film / mini-series.

A young Sean Bean, Richard Burton, Dr Who, Aliens.…

Then the film could end with a dark & mysterious person approaching all the contributors of this thread, as we sit drinking Champaign, reveling in world-wide acclaim at the Oscar ceremonies in Hollywood.

After about half an hour of surreal, spellbinding conversation with the mysterious person, Louise (Psychic) Verrico suddenly realizes that he is in fact HARRY – reincarnated from 1918 to say "thanks guys"

A cold shiver runs up our spines and we all feel an immediate 'de ja vu' experience, go into a dream like state and ultimately black out, only to wake up to find the whole thing has been a vivid dream.

Robert then immediately drives to Sutton and reports back to the forum that the Sutton-in-Craven memorial is missing the name S. Lund, it simply is not there and never has been. He looks up to the skies as the snow gentle falls, looks back at the memorial and then looks down to see a single poppy laying on the plinth of the memorial – a poppy he didn't notice when he first got there.

Dallas, eat your heart out!

[Old Owl]

Andrew that's brilliant! I can already hear the applause ringing in my ears. It has echoes of an old Cary Grant film called 'The Man Who Wished He Had Never Been Born' or something similar? that was set around Xmas and had a similar feel to your proposed Blockbuster. I feel that parts of it should be filmed in Black and White for extra effect?

It's good to dream?

Speak to you soon,

Robert

[27thBN]

Theres still plenty of life left in this story ,what about a reunion of the man above and below Harry on the memorial,

If we try hard enough who knows how many we will get back .And the questions we would all want to ask :w00t:

Cheers All Harry and ........

[Andy Wade]

Step away from the crayons. This thread is starting to get silly.

[Verrico2009]

Hey - gimmie back the red and the black: I'm designing the T-shirt! "...in association with the Great War Forum - bringing 1914-18 alive..."

Silly?! Nous? You have NO idea.. If you're not careful you'll be relegated to the Wakey section, then you'll have to take your passport!

Seriously, though it's nice to get to the stage where we can kick back a bit and enjoy. I'm still curious about Ady's discovery that Harry died in hospital.

[mmm45]

I have from the same source the name of Harry s Fiance as named in the will..Hilda Severn...Harrys sisiter maintained contact with her(Elizabeth Anne)...i think this is a Long Eaton connection i can see a Severn family in Long Eaton on the 01 census but no Hilda

The death in Hospital could just be "fog of war" and he was brought into the dock as a recovered body?

Maybe a DC would confirm this?

Ady

[Verrico2009]

I've got Hilda S. but there's more, Ady. I'll PM you to see if it makes sense.

Certainly possible, I guess. Yes, I'm hoping the fact that they went through the probate process will mean a DC was produced.

Louise

[headgardener]

The fact that he was buried on land will mean that a death cert was created locally, and it will have been used to obtain grant of probate, but there won't be any reference to the DC on the probate/admin records.

Regarding the fact that he's buried on land, I posted AGES ago that there must be info on a DC as his death was recorded as occurring on the FOLLOWING day to the sinking. Yes, it is possible that the CWGC records are a day out, but on balance of probability I'd say that he was almost certainly one of the survivors brought ashore and that he died in hospital as a result of his injuries or from hypothermia, etc. DC will reveal all, I reckon......

Including details of his unit........

[Myrtle]

Maybe one of these men.

Times 14th March 1918

[Myrtle]

American ships used Pembroke Dock during WW1, so if this RAMC man was picked up by the US navy it is possible that he was taken to Pembroke Dock. For example the US Sacramento and the American Coastguard cutter Tampa were there during 1918. A post in the Navy part of the Forum may clarify if the Parker was also moored at Pembroke Dock during that year.

[Andy Wade]

The Times article said that 20 + survivors were rescued and taken to Swansea and another 9 were rescued and taken to Milford Haven (Where Pembroke Dock is situated) I think it's fair to say that Harry Lund would have been one of these survivors and even that he is the one who died on board the vessel. No other people from the Glenart Castle are buried in Pembroke Dock Cemetery.

If he had died on board ship, wouldn't he have been declared dead by the doctor on board the American Destroyer? (assuming they would have one) If not, then it would be a doctor on shore (probably at the hospital) that would issue the death certificate. Hopefully the DC would clear this up.

Timing-wise, the torpedo hit at 03.47 on 26th February and the rescue ship had to arrive on site, then carry out search sweeps and find the survivors, they might have continued searching for some time having found some people still alive, until it was clear they weren't going to find any more (or they had to leave because of U-boat warnings). Then they would have to take them back to port for a doctor to certify him dead. Twenty hours and thirteen minutes from the time of the torpedo hit, until midnight on 26th for him to be declared dead on the 27th. I don't think that is an unreasonable scenario.

Cause of death? February in the Bristol Channel... That would be very cold and even a short length of time in the water could lead to death from hypothermia. Those who weren't drowned quickly could easily succumb to the cold very soon after.

I know, more questions than answers, but I do think he must have been one of the 9 survivors in the Times article.

[sutton-in-craven]

Good work Andy and everyone else

OK, Death Certificate it is. There's no way we can get so far with this research jig-saw, only to find the last 1 or 2 pieces are missing. That would really spoil the fun.

Looking on Ancestry I can order a DC for 23 quid, but it will take up to 16 working days to arrive – presumably longer to get posted to Oz.

Does anyone know if Ancestry is the best way to go to obtain a DC?

This should at least clear up any confusion over the cause and timing of his death + details of his unit.

I'm hoping he's not one of these the German's took pot shots at when the survivors hit the water, I kind of feel like I know Our Harry, almost like he's family!

Incidentally I'm more than happy to let the relative of Harry, who has helped us out so much with information, have a copy of the DC when I get hold of it – assuming she hasn't already got a copy!

[Andy Wade]

Let me check to see if she already has one first. I'm trying to arrange an earlier meeting with her than 11th September.

[sutton-in-craven]

No worries Andy, I guess there’s a slim chance his relative may have a copy of the DC. If not I’ll chase it up ASAP and order one.

[Verrico2009]

Always get certificates from the Government Records Office website (https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp). Outrageously up from £7.00 to something like £9.25 recently. Happy to order if necessary.

[BJanman]

and even that he is the one who died on board the vessel.

The one who died appears to have been a fireman, Jesse White of Southampton. I found this article here

Barbara

[Andy Wade]

Strange that, as the CWGC has him down as not having a grave. He's commemorated on the Tower Hill memorial. I'd have thought he'd be in Pembroke Dock Cemetery:

Name: WHITE, JESSE

Initials: J

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Fireman

Regiment/Service: Mercantile Marine

Unit Text: H.M.H.S. "Glenart Castle" (Southampton)

Age: 28

Date of Death: 26/02/1918

Additional information: Son of Francis and Jessie White; husband of Helena Mary White (nee Penny), of 4, Chapel Rd., St. Mary's, Southampton. Born at Southampton.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Memorial: TOWER HILL MEMORIAL.

Curiouser and curiouser...

[Myrtle]

The Times article said that 20 + survivors were rescued and taken to Swansea and another 9 were rescued and taken to Milford Haven (Where Pembroke Dock is situated) I think it's fair to say that Harry Lund would have been one of these survivors and even that he is the one who died on board the vessel. No other people from the Glenart Castle are buried in Pembroke Dock Cemetery.

If he had died on board ship, wouldn't he have been declared dead by the doctor on board the American Destroyer? (assuming they would have one) If not, then it would be a doctor on shore (probably at the hospital) that would issue the death certificate. Hopefully the DC would clear this up.

Timing-wise, the torpedo hit at 03.47 on 26th February and the rescue ship had to arrive on site, then carry out search sweeps and find the survivors, they might have continued searching for some time having found some people still alive, until it was clear they weren't going to find any more (or they had to leave because of U-boat warnings). Then they would have to take them back to port for a doctor to certify him dead. Twenty hours and thirteen minutes from the time of the torpedo hit, until midnight on 26th for him to be declared dead on the 27th. I don't think that is an unreasonable scenario.

I know, more questions than answers, but I do think he must have been one of the 9 survivors in the Times article.

The Times article says that men were picked up 15 hours after the sinking of the Glenart Castle. If then you add on the time it would have taken to arrive at Pembroke Dock it is more likely that Harry Lund died after arrival at Milford Haven.

[headgardener]

Couple of thoughts;

Looks like they were in the water for almost 12 hours before being picked up.

There would almost certainly be an MO on the detroyer.

The fact that Jesse White is on the Tower Hill memorial is not really so curious; his grave may have been lost (yes, here in the UK - it does happen), or more likely that he was been buried at sea (no time for sentiment in those days - another good reason why Harry was likely to have been landed at least partially alive at Pembroke Dock).

I'd still say that the evidence points to Harry being landed at Pembroke Dock and died on land, but all will be revealed in due course.

Further research could include checking to see if anyone was awarded a Royal Humane Society medal (or medals) in respect of this incident.

Another source might be to check American honours (sorry 'Honors'....) and awards for this incident, just in case any British names are mentioned (as was improbably the case in the NYT article).

Edit; I said Pembroke Dock, I meant Milford Haven.