The HARRY LUND investigation by 'Team Harry'

[Verrico2009]

Yes, I like that too.

I removed the scratches so there's no arguments about any handcuffs being on this picture.

Killjoy! We demand a "handcuffs at dawn" debate...

[Andy Wade]

Thanks for that Andy. Yes, it looks excellent and the original is sepia as well.

I'm not sure you can improve on that?

Robert

PS Did you see my enquiry ref. Yorkshire Hussars on the Keighley History Day?

Oops! I have now, must have missed that one. Sorry about that, I'm afraid I don't have your man. I'm looking for a moment to stick them all online somewhere and run a thread about them on here. Some great pictures of the YH men and some rather special pictures amongst them too.

I agree, I can't improve on that picture.

[sutton-in-craven]

At the foot of Gott Hill stood a building known as 't'Sizing House', a factory with a small chimney. This business of sizing warps was just another process in manufacture of woollens. The business had been prosperous but was now outmoded. I saw the chimney demolished and later a row of houses was built over the Beck."

Good morning/evening team, I've had some feedback from the Sutton web-site on Harry's maternal grandfather Thomas Berry (Sarah Ann's dad) as follows:

"The original sizing house was on the site of the row of cottages just a little further up from Overburn. It was leased and run by Thomas Berry and had been for a very long time. By all accounts sizing houses were notoriously bad to be near due to the smells produced during processing. A map dated 1887 shows the sizing house and also Newmarket. Cottages at Newmarket were pulled down to make way for the drive and lodges of Sutton Hall"

So clearly Our Harry was born into a bit of wealth as has been mentioned several times. This is evident in his immaculate attire + fob watch on the bicycle shot, plus the fact his mother could afford to have these photographs taken.

Edited: just received this additional snippet of information on the 3 village pubs, plus the Dog & Gun at Glusburn which falls inside Sutton's boundary making it officially Sutton's 4th pub (not a lot of people know that - in my Cockney Michael Caine accent!)

"The Landlords of the three inns in 1850 were Richard Laycock at the Bayhorse, Wiiliam P. Longbottom at the Kings Arms, John Jackson at the Black Bull. Ten years later they were engaged in the same trade, having been joined by John Berry at the Dog and Gun. I don’t know if this is a relation to Thomas Berry but likely"

Edited 16 September , 2010 by sutton-in-craven

[Verrico2009]

A map dated 1887 shows the sizing house and also Newmarket. Cottages at Newmarket were pulled down to make way for the drive and lodges of Sutton Hall"

I'm genuinely stunned that this line of enquiry has paid off: it was a true shot in the dark as I don't know the area at all. I noticed on one or two of the 19th century census returns that Newmarket was the next set of houses on from Thomas Berry's family. So Harry's family were literally on the doorstep of Sutton Hall. The photo with the bike was probably right outside their door!

I once researched a small woollen-producing cottage and I have a vague memory that uric acid was used in production, so the comment about the smell doesn't surprise me.

[sutton-in-craven]

Yes it's amazing, even slightly spooky how these 'Harry lines of enquiry' keep coming up trumps. I'm still waiting for one bloke to post a photo of the Newmarket row of cottages, prior to being demolished to make way for Sutton Hall.

And yes, the bottom of West Lane where Harry lived is literally a 2 minute walk to the archway and lodges of Sutton Hall. Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Thomas Berry and indeed Sarah Ann Lund & Harry personally knew John William Hartley who had Sutton Hall built in 1894.

It's also quite possible that they were invited to the Hall by Messeur Hartley in view of the fact that Thomas Berry also ran a small textile factory in the village and his daughter Sarah Ann was not short of a bob or two either. The bike photo of Harry may have been taken during one of these visits pure conjecture on my part of course, but you know what a vivid imagination I have!

EDIT: Ah, forgot that the big fella in the sky reached down to Thomas Berry in 1890 and said “come with me”, so Thomas definitely did not get an invite to the Hall!

Edited 16 September , 2010 by sutton-in-craven

[Verrico2009]

Yes it's amazing, even slightly spooky how these 'Harry lines of enquiry' keep coming up trumps.

Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Thomas Berry and indeed Sarah Ann Lund & Harry personally knew John William Hartley who had Sutton Hall built in 1894.

EDIT: Ah, forgot that the big fella in the sky reached down to Thomas Berry in 1890 and said "come with me", so Thomas definitely did not get an invite to the Hall!

Perhaps we could weave a "ghost story" into the blockbuster version?

I think they would most probably have known each other, although obviously the Berrys weren't quite on the same scale as the Hartleys: it's a small place and I'm sure the Hartleys would have let everyone know how well they were doing (eg later donating Sutton Park to the public: if there's a public library building, I bet they contributed heavily). So while Thomas didn't survive to see the Hall, I do think they would have tripped over each other frequently, say, at church and very probably on social occasions (good - we can work the "d'Arcy" element into it: wonder if Colin Firth's looking for work?!).

["The chances of any facts coming from this were a million to one, but STILL they come..." (with apologies to Jeff Wayne)]

[BJanman]

It is to me - an opportunity to learn something about this aspect in context. Never know when it might come in useful.

Sorry for the delay in posting I had to get myself sorted for my trip away. I have again quoted straight from the OH. There are lots of bits in between but it’s long winded and didn’t appear wholly relevant. Anyway I hope this is useful.

“The recruiting of personnel for the Army Medical Service did not differ in its general aspects from the recruiting for the army generally, except in the case of officers and nursing services, for which special arrangements were made; but, owing to the demands for men as reinforcements to the combatant ranks, the recruiting for the Royal Army Medical Corps was restricted not only in numbers but also in categories as the war went on.......”

“In the years of the war subsequent to 1915 enlistment into the RAMC was determined by the Military Service Acts. Although 6,700 recruits of the highest national service group were posted to the RAMC in the summer of 1918, men allotted to it, were chiefly men of a category of physical fitness lower than that required for combatant units, with the result that men of the highest category already in the Corps were gradually drafted into the field medical units; their places in the medical units on the lines of communication and at home being taken by new recruits of lower categories, and by invalids from overseas discharge from hospital as unfit for general service ....”

“This shortage of high category men was accentuated by an order issued on the 23rd March 1915, by which a number of men of the RAMC were transferred to infantry battalions to meet demands for reinforcements to the expeditionary force......”

“A shortage of men was also felt in the home hospital reserve employed in the military hospitals at home when the great expansion of hospital accommodation begun.”

When reading through the training section I came across a couple of notes written in pencil by my dad. They are about the companies and didn’t mean a lot to me before I took part in this thread. Although this will be something I can research at a later date, I just wanted to say how much I have enjoyed this thread, I think everyone who has contributed information has also received something in return - the GWF at it’s best.

Cheers

Barbara

[sutton-in-craven]

"The original sizing house was on the site of the row of cottages just a little further up from Overburn. It was leased and run by Thomas Berry and had been for a very long time. By all accounts sizing houses were notoriously bad to be near due to the smells produced during processing. A map dated 1887 shows the sizing house and also Newmarket. Cottages at Newmarket were pulled down to make way for the drive and lodges of Sutton Hall"

Hi Team Harry, here is the picture of Newmarket Cottages, later demolished to make way for the building of Sutton Hall in 1894. Picture supplied by life-long Suttoner Tony Ingham (Tony was t'local milk man when r wor a kid)

[Verrico2009]

Something that would be developed into a "des res" today, rather than flattened by the local big cheese to make a more attractive garden. I hate it when that happens!

I took advantage of my brother's visit to the LMA today to get a look-up on the RHS medals and received a short text earlier this evening: "Found comm.minute book[?]. Doesn't mention Lund, only White. Appears to result in bronze medals to Cole and Newman." Pretty much as we expected.

[Verrico2009]

men allotted to [the RAMC], were chiefly men of a category of physical fitness lower than that required for combatant units

Which is effectively what Mona said about Harry - Robert, I think you mentioned this after your catch-up with her?

I agree, Barbara, GWF at it's best. And it seems even the experts are finding new angles from this.

[Old Owl]

Something that would be developed into a "des res" today, rather than flattened by the local big cheese to make a more attractive garden. I hate it when that happens!

I took advantage of my brother's visit to the LMA today to get a look-up on the RHS medals and received a short text earlier this evening: "Found comm.minute book[?]. Doesn't mention Lund, only White. Appears to result in bronze medals to Cole and Newman." Pretty much as we expected.

I agree, this would have made a very attractive property--sadly in those days it was just in the way and had to be knocked down, no need for planning permission etc. I suppose that it must have been great for the landowner and not so good for the tenant. Having said that most of the wealthy mill owners did provide good accomodation for their workers--example Sir Titus Salt who built the Saltaire village with all its amenities--although I suppose that an exceptional case, if not unique?

A shame about the R.H.S.angle, but then I think that this was almost what we expected? Boo Hoo!

[Old Owl]

I "Found comm.minute book[?]

This refers to the R.H.S. Committee Minute Book. All recommendations for awards have to be put formally to the R.H.S. Committee, obviously in order to decide the level of award to be made for each particular act of bravery, in saving or attempting to save life.

At least that is my understanding of how things work?

[Old Owl]

Which is effectively what Mona said about Harry - Robert, I think you mentioned this after your catch-up with her?

Yes, that is effectively what Mona said and indeed what I had thought would be the case with Harry, and of course it was Mona who mentioned the accident Harry had on his bike and the injury to his shoulder, which would substantiate him being medically down graded. Basically, if he was unable to use a rifle due to his injury, and I suspect that he may have had limited movement in one arm, then he would not be considered fit for an Infantry unit.

Many men withslight disabilities of this sort were still considered to be fit enough for some sort of service and were pushed into one of the corps of the army, ie. A.S.C, R.A.M.C, etc.

[headgardener]

I took advantage of my brother's visit to the LMA today to get a look-up on the RHS medals and received a short text earlier this evening: "Found comm.minute book[?]. Doesn't mention Lund, only White. Appears to result in bronze medals to Cole and Newman." Pretty much as we expected.

Louise,

I just sent you a PM. The Case Book is the thing to look for.

This refers to the R.H.S. Committee Minute Book. All recommendations for awards have to be put formally to the R.H.S. Committee, obviously in order to decide the level of award to be made for each particular act of bravery, in saving or attempting to save life.

At least that is my understanding of how things work?

Robert,

Your understanding is correct. The RHS was founded in the 18th century by a couple of men who were interested in the 'controversial' (by the medical standards of the day) technique of resuscitation. By the time of the 20th century it was chiefly involved in recognizing acts of bravery by men and women who saved, or sought to save, someone else's life. There are 3 registers detailing the case numbers, the medals awarded and the general business of the committee. The Case Books are the raw material on which the decisions of the committee was based. There's no promise of any more info than we already have, but if there is anything else to add it'll be in the Case Book.

[sutton-in-craven]

He died in1890 - two years before Harry was born: that's what stood out in the article and made me think he must have had some standing.

Thomas Berry's gravestone has been identified in St Thomas's Church, Sutton as follows:

Gravestone in St Thomas Churchyard

In Loving Memory of Mary Ann wife of Thomas Berry of Sutton

who died Sep 6th 1887 in the 69th year of her life

Also of Thomas Berry her husband

who died Sep 26th 1890 in the 71st year of his life

Information provided by Josie Walsh, now living in Cononley who has previously done a full inventory of the burial ground in Sutton.

[Andy Wade]

Yes, here's Thomas Berry's grave. No mention of Harry:

[Verrico2009]

Sadly no Harry. Interesting that Sarah Ann got the larger memorial. Well, it's certainly been an educational thread, taking in many things I didn't know (eg RHS origins and restrictions on eligibility for the RAMC). I wonder where it will take us next?!

[headgardener]

I'll try to get to the LMA to have a look at the Case Books, but I can't guarantee anything; it all depends on work commitments.

I thought I'd take a look at the records for Lloyd's Medal for Saving Life at Sea and Lloyd's Medal for Meritorious Services which are held in the manuscripts section of the Guildhall library in London. They consist of lots and LOTS of files which are roughly in date order and several files of loosely indexed material. There's a 'sort-of' index (listing the names of ships) to the otherwise un-indexed material, so I had a look in that first. There it was; Glenart Castle! So there was some sort of award relating to the Glenart Castle amongst the loosely indexed material.....

I waded through a lot of loosely bound paperwork, and then I found a sheaf of papers relating to Captain Edward Weathersone DAY, of HMHS Glenart Castle! I had a quick look-through, lots of letters from the Admiralty and from Lloyds to the Union Castle Line who owned the Glenart Castle, and plenty of letters in return, some clippings from (presumably) a Lloyd's shipping journal. The correspondence seemed to start on the 1st March (the ship was sunk on 26th February), and plenty of references to the ship being hit by a mine or torpedo and the Captain's actions ensuring that the ship was abandoned in as orderly fashion as was possible under the difficult circumstances, it being in the middle of the night, etc. And then there was a transcript of the citation. I had so much to do, and didn't want to waste valuable time so I photographed everything in order to be able to read it at my leisure, and to be able to post it here.

When I was sitting on the bus on my way home, trying to read everything on the screen of my mobile phone, I realized that the correspondence and citation dated the incident as 1st March rather than 26th Feb. Then I noticed that it gave the year as 1917 rather than 1918.........????? A closer reading revealed that the Glenart Castle had been torpedoed or mined almost exactly 1 year to the day prior to being sunk....! What are the chances of that...?!

It turns out that the ship was steaming back to the UK fully laden with sick and injured men, when it was either torpedoed or struck a mine. The blast was at the rear of the ship, which is why there was some doubt about it being a mine. It was 11.40p.m. The engine room and stoke-hold were found to be flooded, so the Captain gave the order to abandon ship. The 525 sick and wounded, 104 of the 118 crew, and the medical staff (about 70 men and women) were transferred to various trawlers and other ships which came to their aid. By 8a.m the next morning 3 tugs had arrived and managed to tow the ship, which was still afloat but heavily down in the water, back to Portsmouth where she was placed in dry-dock. Captain Day was awarded Lloyd's Silver Medal for Saving Life at Sea (silver was the highest award, bronze being the other level).

Now, I can't see Harry Lund being on the ship at that time, but I'm guessing that the ship would have taken time to be made seaworthy again, and that the medical staff would have been dispersed to other ships, depots or hospitals. I wonder when it was fully operational again? I'm guessing that Harry, and maybe some or all of the other medical staff, was the replacement crew for the newly repaired Glenart Castle. Their misfortune.........

Captain DAY and Chief Officer James Disraeli KERRIDGE were both mentioned in the London Gazette (29th Oct '18) for "Valuable services rendered on the occasion of the sinking or damage by enemy action" of HS Glenart Castle. I'd presume that it relates to the 1918 incident rather than the one in 1917. As a footnote, Captain Day was awarded the Silver medal again in 1922, but I didn't bother looking into that.

Has anyone done any research on the ship itself? When was it in use again after the incident in 1917? Does that date coincide with the men that Andy traced joining the ship? Still scope for research on this...... Andy; any luck with any of the other men on the list?

Regarding awards in relation to the incident in 1918, I'd still say that there's a fair or better chance of turning up something in the RHS Case Books. There are 2 other possible awards; the Albert Medal and the Sea Gallantry Award. I've no idea how easy these are to research, but I'll look into it.

I reckon that over the past week or so we reached the point where the law of diminishing returns kicked in; we discovered a hell of a lot in a very short space of time, but now we'll get increasingly smaller returns for larger amounts of effort. Still very much worth it, in my opinion.......

I'm just trying to rally the troops....

[Old Owl]

As you say 'what are the chances'!! I should think that this must be almost unique? You certainly put in an awful lot of effort to be thwarted in this way, that is very hard!!

As regards information on the ship, I seem to remember that Lloyds keep registers of all ships lost at sea(obviously!) and these contain details of the ship such as when built, etc., etc. It is almost certain that an entry would be made concerning the damage done by the mine/torpedo and most probably would also tell when the ship was recommissioned?

I have just spoken to a friend who is going to look and see what information he can find on the Glenart Castle, he recognised the name straight away but said that it is a bit of a lottery as to how much information is available. I am hoping to hear back from him in the next couple of days--so will be in touch then.

Keep rallying! At least it will keep us on our toes?

Go Team Harry!

[sutton-in-craven]

In respect of your project 'ending up a non-starter', you're not seriously going to let this minor setback get in your way, are you? This forum is crawling with people who are having the same problems attributing a name on a memorial with a casualty who doesn't appear on CWGC or who doesn't appear to come from the local area. Everyone here loves a challenge, don't they? Just got to keep digging, you'll find him sooner or later.

Headgardener, how prophetic your words (above) would prove to be. I have to say that when I read these very words only 5 weeks ago I was consumed with pessimism about determining who S. Lund was. I was 99.9% sure this inquiry would reap no rewards and could go no further.

How wrong was I! My mistake was under estimating the tenacity, true-grit and determination of the emerging 'Go Team Harry' investigational squad. I have now been able to compile a comprehensive biographical profile on Harry Lund (as he turned out to be) as part of my on-going research project profiling the 40 names on the Sutton-in-Craven war memorial.

It has been an absolute pleasure working with members of 'Go Team Harry' in uncovering the facts surrounding the war time service and ultimate death of Harry (Samuel) Lund. It's been quite extraordinary! Thanks to the Great War Forum, S. Lund is no longer an obscure name on one of the brass tablets of the Sutton-in-Craven war memorial.

92 years after being killed serving his King and Country during the Great War, the name S Lund has well and truly been resurrected. His identity has been revealed and brought back to life having been mysteriously consigned to oblivion. Photographs of Harry have emerged putting a face to the name. A biographical profile has been compiled on Harry which will soon be downloaded onto the Sutton-in-Craven web-site for the general public to view.

A fitting end to a WW1 serviceman who sacrificed his life in order to help secure freedom for future generations. Once again, a huge thank you to the 'Go Team Harry' circle of researchers, this astonishing result would simply not have been possible without you.

REMEMBERED

115666 Pte Harry (Samuel) Lund, R.A.M.C. (ATT. R.N.D.) 1892 – 1918

[KevinBattle]

As one who only recently came into contact with a Team Harry member, I have to say what a pleasure this thread has been to read.

As good as the best novels!! Superb plot, twists and distractions and a truly rewarding conclusion.

I started on Saturday and soon discovered fro the wrecksites website about the previous mine incident in 1917. Captain Day obviously triumphed in getting the ship to port. I think the captain in 1918 was Burt, so any references to Captain Day are likely related to 1917.

Reading that the damage was to the stern of Glenart Castle made me wonder if this weakened her structure, so that the torpedo was far more effective in sinking her so swiftly. That at least one other vessel was close enough to consider altering course, and possibly saw the Uboat is a small part of this tragedy. How they could sail on having seen a fully lit hospital ship suddenly "disappear" without investigating and possibly saving more lives is a little incomprehensible to me all these years later. I can't imagine that they heard nothing either....

There is not much reference to the USS Parker that certainly retrieved Harry, and if he was physically impaired no doubt the hypothermia and maybe injuries led to his dying as or shortly before reaching shore.

The radio operator is the only other land burial, in Penzance. Any likelihood of finding out whether he was rescued by another ship or if it was just a case of an identifiable body being washed ashore? Could it possibly be that there are other "unknown" graves of other casualties from GC who were washed ashore around the Bristol Channel coastline?

One other meagre contribution: Has anyone tried to discover if there is another interpretation of the acronym "RND"? Could it be "Reserves, Northern Division" or something similar that makes more sense in an RAMC context?

Perhaps it was something misunderstood, misread or misheard from Harry to his folks perhaps meaning that "when I get to France I'll be attached to the RND hospital" and not that he was attached to the RND and that's why he was on GC.....

Apologies if I'm treading on ground already exhausted, but seeing what has been teased out from minute atoms so far, I wondered if it might help.

Thoroughly well done to all the Team, GWF at its best!

[Verrico2009]

Knew we'd get you over here eventually, Kevin! Some interesting thoughts.

The thinking behind him being rescued by the Parker is that it was the only boat to go into Milford Haven. Ady found the information that Harry had died in Pembroke Hospital as part of the probate search. I think he must have entered the hospital and died the following day, as per his headstone, otherwise why not give him the same date of death as the other: the date of the sinking?

As we saw, the Parker didn't bring her survivors into land until 8pm (relevant page of the Admiralty records attached, which also mentions some survivors going to Newport and the Faon went to Swansea).

I've had a refund on my application for a death certificate: apparently I gave them too much information! So I've reapplied with just the details Phil provided. Not sure they'll consider it entirely satisfactory as you're forced to give a full name for the deceased and I don't know if "Unknown Male" fits the bill. ETA is now 7 October.

Oh - I wouldn't write "the Harry phenomenon" off just yet, Andrew!

Go Team Harry! ^TM

[headgardener]

I think he must have entered the hospital and died the following day, as per his headstone, otherwise why not give him the same date of death as the other: the date of the sinking?

Agreed. The probate record states that he died AT the hospital. I'm sure that the DoD is correct. Probate, CWGC & SDGW all tally, too.

[BJanman]

As promised, I asked my friend who served as a dispenser in the RAMC if he could tell me what a dispenser's clerk did, he replied, "A dispenser's clerk - um, I've never heard of it".

I then asked a veteran of WW2 if he had ever come across, or heard of, a dispenser's clerk during his long service in the RAMC, he replied "No"

There was one more more person I could ask, he served as a medic in the navy. I asked him if he knew if the navy employed 'Dispenser's clerks', he said he hadn't heard of it but asked me what time period I am investigating and in what context. I told him about Harry and the information that has come forward from different people's research here. He explained that all medics in the navy go through training as dispensers and said it doesn't sound unreasonable that a member of the RAMC may have become attached to the Royal Naval Division in that capacity but it is possible that it was an anomaly. He has been researching the RAMC's involvement in Singapore during WW2 as his father, who was a doctor, served and died there. He said he has come across many anomalies - that is situations and/or positions that were invented because of the complexities of war, which really wouldn't exist in peace time. It is possible then that Harry was given this title only because he was a member of the RAMC attached to the RND - but in any event he would have been serving in an administrative role, dealing with paperwork, forms etc, rather than in a medical capacity.

I'm not sure that it brings us any closer in getting to the bottom of Harry's war service or not. I'm intrigued though and will keep on searching/asking.

Barbara

[Verrico2009]

Thanks to headgardener for prompting me to check my mail - the DC had arrived! It can be viewed here: http://flickr.com/gp/louiq/yc14yQ

My personal feeling is that this must be Harry. I'll be interested to hear what others think.