The HARRY LUND investigation by 'Team Harry'

[BJanman]

Hi BJay,

I, or should I say we, will be very happy to hear how you get on with the Royal Naval Museum

Robert

I've decided not to write to the Royal Naval Museum just yet. I have been looking into other RAMC personnel who were attached to specific divisions and have a few theories which I want to see if I can get answers to or confirmation that I am on the right track. I will then try to visit the museum after to look up any relevant papers that may be there. I don't know what the relevant papers are just yet and I have quite a few questions swirling around in my mind so think it is best to leave it for now. I will definitely let you all know if I ever find anything relevant to Harry's story

Barbara

[headgardener]

[headgardener]

I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but there's a memorial to the crew of the Glenart castle on Hartland Point, looking out over the spot a few miles out to sea where the ship went down. It was erected in 2002.

I found this image on a photo-sharing website. It's the only photo of the memorial, but HERE'S a link to the photographer's other images.

[headgardener]

Here's another one of the Glenart Castle (in the livery of the United Castle Line);

[Andy Wade]

OK, so we do this for the fun of it and because its a great learning experience and all that.

But, there is a strong remembrance theme woven into the reasons we did this for Harry and we've certainly succeeded in that. I wanted everyone who has read this thread and those who have participated in it and those who have emailed stuff to me about Harry to know just one of the effects it has had. I have sent the entire contents of the Local History Day display I did about Harry to Mona (Who is Harry's Great Niece) and I've had a lovely email from her in return. I've snipped some of the message out as it was personal to me but I don't think Mona would mind me showing everyone the effect this has had on her:

Hi Andy

I shall be going to Sutton this year for the Remembrance Service on the 14th November seeing as my Gt.Uncle S.Lund R.A.M.C.is on their War Memorial, and feel proud to be thereafter these past few weeks.

Regards

Mona

I'd like to add my sincere thanks to everyone who has participated in bringing Harry back into the fold. I know it's still ongoing but Remembrance Day is approaching fast.

Harry isn't an IFCP case, but it illustrates how important our work has been.

[sutton-in-craven]

I couldn't agree more Andy. Great to hear that Mona will be attending the village park memorial in Sutton on 11^th November, I only wish I could be there to join her.

The depth to which this Harry investigation has unfolded is quite staggering.

I spent an hour and a half getting a tiny sliver of information to add, but it may help to provide some context to Harry's story.

I thought I'd see if anything could be found by looking at the service of those men with similar service numbers to Harry. His number was 115666, so I looked at RAMC men with numbers ranging from 115600 to 115700.

Out of that sample of 101 men, a total of only 58 served overseas, the rest didn't.

I was able to trace the enlistment dates of 3 men, one of them with a service number adjacent to Harry's (115667). They are;

115666 Harry Lund

115667 Peter Gerrard e. 10 Dec 1915

115682 Philip John Clarke e. 15 Feb 1917

115698 James Halkyard e. 11 Dec 1915 (e. under the Derby Scheme, mobilized 5 Apr 1916, returned to Reserve, remobilized 16 April 1917. Was graded 'B 2' & was discharged after 4 months due to chronic ulceritis of both legs).

Quite by chance, I came across another man just outside my 'sample'; 115510, who enlisted 2 Mar 1916.

If we combine these details with the results of the much wider 'sample' provided by Barbara in a previous post, we can see that the dates of enlistment vary widely between late 1915 to early 1917.

Headgardener, what a phenomenal effort to check out over 100 RAMC men to see if Harry's enlistment date could be verified. Also wonderful shots of the Glenart Castle + the Glenart Castle memorial overlooking the sea – great stuff.

I feel kind of sterile because this type of inquisitive and imaginative thinking is deeper than how my mind works. It blows me away when members of the 'Go Team Harry' gnaw away at the smallest molecule of meat still left on the bone, such as why was R.N.D. added to the memorial, when did Harry enlist, how was his body eventually identified. All excellent questions and more information may yet be revealed – who knows?

Again, I'm so pleased for Mona that her Great War relative (Our Harry) now has a boigraphical profile detailing lots of facts long since forgotten and indeed previously unknown to todays generation.......until 'Go Team Harry' was assembled out of no where!

[Verrico2009]

Thanks for sharing that, Andy. Following on from what you say, I can confirm that, despite living not too far away, Mona was quite unaware that Harry was commemorated on the Sutton-in-Craven memorial so this will be the first Remembrance Day that will have that connection for her. She also knows rather more about what actually happened to poor Harry: understandably the family had believed he simply drowned and learning of his quite heroic fight for life really moved her. Your display was very well-presented and I hope we're going to see it reproduced here?

I've got an appointment to go through the parish registers on 6 November, so there may be a little more information on the memorial itself to be gleaned from there.

Like Andrew, I'm extremely impressed by the work that headgardener has put in here and everyone else who's contributed to make our understanding of Harry's probable service life and tragic death has certainly been a learning curve for me personally.

[Verrico2009]

Well, it was worth a try but today I received a letter from the Identity & Passport Service(!) explaining why the evidence I've offered isn't sufficient to get the DC amended (http://flickr.com/gp/louiq/30hC9c), ending with an apologetic "hope we haven't disappointed you" etc. Of course not - it's now simply a challenge to get it done! So, all thoughts gratefully received as to where to look next...

[sutton-in-craven]

Well, it was worth a try but today I received a letter from the Identity & Passport Service(!) explaining why the evidence I've offered isn't sufficient to get the DC amended (http://flickr.com/gp/louiq/30hC9c), ending with an apologetic "hope we haven't disappointed you" etc. Of course not - it's now simply a challenge to get it done! So, all thoughts gratefully received as to where to look next...

I don't think the Identity & Passport Service folk realise they're reckoning with the 'Go Team Harry' mob. I've got a sneaky suspicion this is not the last they will be hearing from GTH!

[Andy Wade]

Ok, after a discussion with Louise tonight, something else connected with this has arisen.

As we know, a merchant seaman called Jesse White was one of the 9 men rescued by the American Destroyer Parker. Apparently in his weakened state he couldn't hold on to the rope thrown to him and drifted aft into the propellors and was very badly injured. He was still brought on board and died on board the Parker. Now as far as we know he isn't buried in Pembroke Dock Cemetery where Harry Lund is buried, but what has transpired (because I've just been and looked) is that CWGC have him recorded as this:

WHITE, JESSE

Initials: J

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Fireman

Regiment/Service: Mercantile Marine

Unit Text: H.M.H.S. "Glenart Castle" (Southampton)

Age: 28

Date of Death: 26/02/1918

Additional information: Son of Francis and Jessie White; husband of Helena Mary White (nee Penny), of 4, Chapel Rd., St. Mary's, Southampton. Born at Southampton.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Memorial: TOWER HILL MEMORIAL

Note that he's commemorated on a memorial, not in a grave. But as far as the report says, he was landed as a body along with 7 'walking wounded' (for want of a better description) and one unconscious man, who was Harry Lund and as we know he died later in hospital.

So it begs the question, where is Jesse White buried? Was he transported home to be buried in a family plot or similar, and if so, should we be reporting this matter to the CWGC through IFCP? Even if his family had refused a CWGC stone, he would still have been recorded as lying in that grave and not on a memorial. I think he's somehow been missed along the way.

[Verrico2009]

I've got a sneaky suspicion this is not the last they will be hearing from GTH!

Just another puzzle to tackle in due course! For the time being I'm satisfied that other GWF members with much more experience than me are happy this is Harry, but if Harry's family/RAMC acquired enough evidence to erect a CWGC headstone, the proof should still be out there and accessible. There are loose ends I suspect can never be tidied up, but this doesn't strike me as one of them.

In the meantime, I'm looking forward to a trip to Thirsk to see what's in the Parish Council records in the memorial and Andy's thrown us another conundrum in the form of Jesse White's final resting place. Unfortunately, another man who doesn't appear in the Genes' WW1 deaths list.

Team Harry A-Go-Go!

[Myrtle]

Jesse White was probably buried at sea,as he died on board ship. This would have resulted in him being commemorated on the Tower Hill Memorial.

An observation about Harry Lund's father. It was not unusual for agricultural workers to live away from their family as their employers didn't necessarily provide accommodation for wives and children. Samuel Lund may have lost his farm through foot and mouth or mismanagement and therefore may have had to take agricultural jobs away from his family. I have come across many similar cases in my research.

[Andy Wade]

Jesse White was probably buried at sea,as he died on board ship. This would have resulted in him being commemorated on the Tower Hill Memorial.

An observation about Harry Lund's father. It was not unusual for agricultural workers to live away from their family as their employers didn't necessarily provide accommodation for wives and children. Samuel Lund may have lost his farm through foot and mouth or mismanagement and therefore may have had to take agricultural jobs away from his family. I have come across many similar cases in my research.

Jesse White was landed as one of the nine 'survivors' at Pembroke Dock, Louise found the list of names. Jesse was landed as a body. Harry Lund was landed as a man on a stretcher and died later.

It's a good point, and you're right about agricultural jobs beoing a problem with people having to live apart. Mona (Harry's Great Niece) has indicated that there was a known split in the family, followed by Samuel's wife making a name change on a later census, reflecting the split.

[Myrtle]

Andy

Please give the number of the post where the body is reported as landed, as this thread is very long.

Myrtle

[Verrico2009]

Jesse White was probably buried at sea,as he died on board ship.

You may well be right, Myrtle - but you'll see from the link to the original report that the hospital received "only 8 survivors and one dead body" (http://flickr.com/gp/louiq/8o0C1g) (the Parker subsequently confirming that they picked up a total of 9 and not 9 plus a body). We know Harry was alive when he arrived at the hospital, given that his headstone (and the DC we believe to be his) are dated the following day - leaving 7 men surviving from the Parker's rescue efforts.

[Edit - I see we've all cross-posted. What I meant is, I don't know enough to say whether they'd take a body back out to sea once it's landed? I just sort of doubted it.

This is confirmation from the Parker: http://flickr.com/gp/louiq/0S10jD]

[Myrtle]

Louise

Thank you for the links. From what has been posted previously I believe that Jesse White died on board the Parker after being injured during his rescue. If this is the case then it is highly possible that he was buried at sea and the body that was landed was that of one of the other RAMC survivors who died before he reached shore.

Have you tried contacting the US Navy archives to check the Parker's log regarding this particular rescue?

Myrtle

[Verrico2009]

Sorry, Myrtle - I'm not quite following your logic here: in post 390 I went through and identified the names of the men who make up the contingent: nowhere does the Parker report burying anybody at sea.

All the Admiralty papers relating to the enquiry are here (including the Parker's original report): http://flickr.com/gp/louiq/4151sz, but no - I don't think anyone's contacted the US Navy.

[Edit - of course, headgardener also previously went through identifying the known RAMC men to be picked up by the Parker]

[Myrtle]

Louise

The three messages regarding the number of men recovered by the Parker were sent on the 26th and as the messages were corrected more than once, I wonder about the validity of the information. It is possible that the last message that states that there were nine survivors and then one died after rescue, may have ommitted to mention that the ship had also picked up the body, mentioned in the previous message. I suggest that the Parker's log would clarify this.

Myrtle

P.S. By the way page 357 seems to be missing from the photographs of report.

[Verrico2009]

Myrtle,

Just tried to send you a personal message, but it says you can't receive them!

I don't personally find it troubling that there's confusion about the number of men landed by the Parker and it doesn't seem to me they've left anything out of their report - I can quite believe if they radioed in they had 9 living men but 8 men and a dead body arrive, someone would believe a survivor had gone missing. But if you're convinced it's a sticking point you may feel it's worth pursuing.

My earlier response was during a very snatched lunchbreak and I know it's tiresome trundling through the previous posts every time so here's the link to the Admiralty papers: http://flickr.com/gp/louiq/T4c3o7 I'm aware there's a page missing here, which I definitely do have following a subsequent trip, but as it's in relation to the events of the sinking rather than the rescue I wasn't planning to upload it immediately.

Funny, isn't it - I'd never even noticed the stamped numbers on the pages! I'm confident I got everything but will check the images over the weekend (though I would have bulk-loaded them). I notice there are other numbers missing too. I can't remember which set of papers it was, but one was definitely referred to as an "extract" from another reference, so that may explain it. Next time I'm at Kew there's no problem hauling them out again to make sure, but it's probably going to be the New Year now.

[Andy Wade]

I'm satisfied that Jesse White was landed. I see Myrtle's point and the confusion, but they have clearly defined what actually happened. The subsequent naval messages (eventually) make it clear that they picked up nine and that one of these men had died on board.

I can't imagine that a vessel involved in an ongoing search would dispose of a body without carrying out a proper service. Would they really be so callous? The man had just died in front of them after a horrendous struggle with his injuries, which I imagine they were attempting to treat when he died. The ship wasn't under fire, neither can I imagine that the body would have been in the way.

[sutton-in-craven]

in post 390 I went through and identified the names of the men who make up the contingent: nowhere does the Parker report burying anybody at sea.

Yes it certainly is a mystery as to where Jesse White is buried, or perhaps more to the point, what they did with his body.

As we know, the Tower Hill Memorial commemorates men & women of the Merchant Navy who have no known grave. Why would he not have been given a grave, when Harry who died the next day was given a grave?

OK speculation time: perhaps his injuries from drifting into the ships propellers were so horrific, gaping head wounds, limbs missing (sorry to sound gory), that they wanted to spare his family from seeing his mutilated body. If there was a Chaplain on board the Parker and they did do some sort of brief Christian service for him and then bury him at sea, would it have been mandatory for the US ship Parker to report this fact back then during WW1? This was now 1918 and I'm sure with the horrors of almost 4 years of war, protocol wasn't always adhered to.

In any case, I note that Jesse came from St Mary's in Southampton. I've just composed an email and sent it to the Parish office in Southampton covering St Mary's Church asking if there is a Jesse White, husband of Helena Mary White, buried in the grounds of this church. Hopefully I'll get a response and can report back. It looks like there is also a St Michael's Church in the same area, but I'll try the former first.

EDIT: at least Jesse is on the Southampton Cenotaph Roll of Honour. The original Southampton Roll of Honour produced for the dedication ceremony contained 1,793 names including Jesse's. In 1921 a further 203 names were added and in 1922 one final name was added.

White Jesse Roll of Honour - 1920

[Myrtle]

Andrew

I must admit that I was thinking the same about the propellers. The US Navy would have been well used to burying bodies at sea, just as the Royal Navy. There wouldn't have been a need for a chaplain to perform the ceremony as the Captain was authorised to conduct the service.

Good idea contacting the Parish of St Mary's.

Louise

The missing pages may provide further clarification.

Myrtle

[Verrico2009]

Certainly happy to make sure I've got a copy of all the papers in the file, Myrtle, but I'm afraid it eludes me as to what clarification is still needed. From the Parker's sighting of one man on a raft, followed by three other rafts with one to three men on them, giving a total of 8 other men (image 1995 of the Admiralty papers set) to make the complement of 9 and sadly losing Jesse White on the way back, finally depositing 7 "worse for wear" men, one close-to-death Harry and a dead body at Milford Haven doesn't give me any feeling of mystery about the procedure: everyone mentioned in the report is accounted for so I'm unclear why Jesse can't be the dead body (especially as we can account for the other 7 men by name and Harry by virtue of his death), when the Parker report freely admits he came on board alive but tragically died of injuries inflicted by their own boat. As an aside and for completeness, I'd very much like to know what happened to Jesse's body, but I'm unconvinced it has to be any more complicated than as set out in the available paperwork. Jesse bled to death: surely it doesn't have to be much more than a glancing blow from the propellers, particularly as it's clear all the men were terribly weakened by their ordeal.

[Phil Evans]

Andy,

I've just been reading your Jesse White thread on the Non-comms board.

Although the info is probably spurious, Mel's findings on Ancestry re. his burial in Pembroke is looking a bit like Pembroke Dock Military Cemetery. My gut feeling is that Andrew is on the right track in Southampton though.

I don't have access to FMP, but would guess that his death may be registered in the Armed Forces index.

Phil

[Myrtle]

Louise

Those who are commemorated on the Tower Hill Memorial have their names inscribed there because they have no known grave due to them having being lost at sea or buried at sea. As Jesse White's name appears on the Memorial he has either being buried at sea or he is buried somewhere else and therefore his name does not need to be on the memorial.

Myrtle