The HARRY LUND investigation by 'Team Harry'

[Phil Evans]

Louise,

As there is only one Unknown Male on the index for Pembroke, March Qu. 1918, it shouldn’t be a problem applying for the DC in the normal way. I had a look at the GRO page and there is no later annotation, so maybe the DC itself will not contain the necessary identification, but may confirm, or otherwise that he was from the Glenart Castle.

To save me going back over all the posts, can anyone remember when probate was issued? I cannot see it being held up for very long if his body had not been recovered or identified, given the fact that he was known to be on the ship and the expected survival time in the water etc.

I noticed an entry on William Blench’s Statement of Services: “Death accepted by W.O. on lapse of time”. Unfortunately I can’t see a date for the entry to see what the period was. Going by later paperwork, it may have been July.

Phil

PS Just see you have already gone for it, while I’ve been typing

[Verrico2009]

9 January 1919, Phil.

Name: Samuel Lund

Probate Date: 9 Jan 1919

Death Date: 27 Feb 1918

Death Place: Derbyshire, England

Registry: London

Derbyshire is given as his address in the document itself and place of death as "the Royal Naval Hospital Pembroke Dock" (all of which I believe Ady flagged up earlier so I can't take any credit). "Samuel otherwise Harry" - so we would have found him eventually!

I ordered it before I left this morning, but thanks. I was just hoping there'd be a specific DC for him as the above seems pretty definitive.

[Andy Wade]

For me this has been a complete eye opener in methods of research, I would never have even conceived of the idea to look at the other casualties from the Glenart Castle and see if there were any factors which linked them all. I would not know about using a will to give details of death nor where to find the information in the first place.

I'm always learning when I come here and the work on this man alone has paid me back many fold in terms of knowledge and a sense of cameraderie.

Perhaps we should adopt another man for similar treatment when we've completed Harry, as I'm sure the people who have taken part will have all learned something from this search for answers.

Now if we can just find out why on earth he was described as 'Att. RND'... There are three possible ways this can happen ...that I can think of:

1) We find his service records at Kew and that they are missing from Ancestry - not outside the bounds of reasoning.

2) They are on Ancestry but in fact consist of just a couple of pieces of paper that are hidden in amongst someone else's Service Records and were missed when they were first scanned.

3) We find original paperwork from the Sutton-in-Craven War Memorial Committee minutes that explains why this detail was added to the memorial. Perhaps a search on local newspaper archives from the time the memorial was erected might give us a clue as to who they were. If it was a council run thing it might be minuted in council archives. If it's a Parish church thing would there be some sort of transcript for it?

More questions I'm afraid. Always more questions.

[Verrico2009]

Yes, I was vaguely aware that probate had come online very recently but couldn't see a use for it myself until Ady brought it up. It's been good to get out there and meet other Forum members and also to build up friendships with others in the background. I like the idea of "adopting" others: who knows what would be turned up?

It may be the one thing that's never resolved satisfactorily, but I'll take (1) as I can be back again soon. We could wait a long time for (2). (3) is worth pursuing, but wouldn't they just have accepted what the family presented them with?

Of course - but that's the fun of it, surely...

[Verrico2009]

Sutton Park as it is known today is just a small park within the village. I'm not sure if it was originally part of the Sutton Hall Estate. These things often were, particularly around these parts.

Slightly OT but I thought this might interest you, Andy: Sutton Park

[sutton-in-craven]

Not sure whether any of us have mentioned it yet, but Mona revealed that grandfather Berry was a local mill owner and one of Sarah Ann's sisters married into another mill-owning family. Can't remember the name of the family off the top of my head, but I wonder...

Whether it is that family or not, I think these are the circles the young Harry could have moved in. He may even have been cycling back from a visit to the house itself. He's in his Sunday best - a chain and probably fob-watch at that age?

I know this is a bit of an aside from Harry the soldier, but I've been trying to find information on local mill owners in Sutton-in-Craven and cannot find any reference to the name Berry as a local mill owner. That's not to say it didn't exist, history has a habit of 'forgetting' certain things – like Our Harry for example!

There are references to 6 manufactures in Sutton, described as small 'clothiers': William Walton, Peter Hartley, Robert Clough, John Clough, John Jackson and William Hartley, the latter being the only one to continue for any length of time as a manufacturer in Sutton.

From the mid-19^th century, the village was dominated by 2 textile factories, Bairstow's and Hartley's. The latter was created in 1840 by John Hartley, a clothier of Sutton who rented a small mill on the site of the present factory. In 1850, his son William continued his father's business, which passed to William's son John William who built Sutton Hall in 1894 (picture below)

There is now a private housing estate on the site of the old Sutton Hall as Andy has referred to. However, the woodland road leading up to Sutton Clough where Harry can be seen with his 'oversized' bicycle has been remarkable preserved. Well worth a stroll if anyone is in the area.

Quote from Louise: "Mona referred to it as Sutton Park - has it ever been public land?"

John William Hartley mentioned above who lived at Sutton Hall, died in 1911. In his will he donated the field in the middle of Sutton village to be laid out as a park. The park was opened to the public the following year on 20^th July 1912. I've seen several photos of the field prior to it becoming the park and it was basically an open area with a few trees scattered around. The photo of Harry and the bike was definitely taken on the woodland road leading from Sutton Hall to the Clough.

[sutton-in-craven]

Ha, you beat me to it Louise, great minds think alike!

[Verrico2009]

True, but that's a better picture than they have on their website!

That's what I understood and the newspaper report refers to Ellers Mill, but I'm sure our "roving reporter" will be able to clarify before long....

[Old Owl]

Where will this all end? It seems that the full history of Sutton-in-Craven is slowly passing through this thread. Great photo by the way Andrew--just a shame that its not still standing today.

I must say that I don't remember any mill, small or large, up the Ellers. Any ideas Andrew? I may have to quiz Mona on this--I'm sure that Berry's Yard was mentioned as a coal yard? I know that Berry's had some connection with Huddersfield, which of course, was full of mills of all sizes at that time--could be where the discrepancy comes in?

I am hoping to see Mona over the next couple of days, so may have some more info then?

Go Team Harry!

[sutton-in-craven]

Congratulations everyone in Team Harry. Great detective work. Could merit Classic Thread status IMHO

cheers Martin B

What's this 'Classic Thread' thingamajig that's now been referred to a couple of times? Our Harry was still 'forgotten' less than a month ago, now there's talk of elevating him to GWF Classic status, gees Harry would be chuffed - so would the 'Go Team Harry' mob!

[Verrico2009]

"One road leading out of the village was known as t'Ellers. It was very steep and led to 'Sutton Stoop', a boundary stone on the hilltop, on to Goose Eye (Goise Ee) and from there to Haworth and the 'Bronte Country'. At the foot of t'Ellers was Gott Hill Farm, owned by Tommy Overton, while across the Beck was Sutton House surrounded by a large rookery known as 't'Craw Trees'.

Here in my early days lived Bill Ingham, a farmer and cattle dealer of good repute. At the foot of Gott Hill stood a building known as 't'Sizing House', a factory with a small chimney. This business of sizing warps was just another process in manufacture of woollens. The business had been prosperous but was now outmoded. I saw the chimney demolished and later a row of houses was built over the Beck."

Sutton

Could it be anything to do with this - seems to be in the same area.

[sutton-in-craven]

I must say that I don't remember any mill, small or large, up the Ellers. Any ideas Andrew? I may have to quiz Mona on this--I'm sure that Berry's Yard was mentioned as a coal yard?

Hi Robert, I too don't know of any mill up the Ellers in Sutton. The steep inclining Ellers road led up to the farms on the hillsides overlooking Sutton.

I've posted a new thread on the Sutton village web-site asking for any information on a local mill owner called Thomas Berry, probably operating from the late 1800s - early 1900s. Hopefully someone can shed some light on it

[Verrico2009]

Thomas Berry, probably operating from the late 1800s - early 1900s.

He died in1890 - two years before Harry was born: that's what stood out in the article and made me think he must have had some standing.

[Old Owl]

You could be onto something here--I think that this could fit the bill perfectly.

Not wishing to be in any way disrespectful, but the two mills in Sutton village were Serious concerns, associated with Serious wealth, and Harry and his family, I feel, would have been some way down the pecking order from that!

Hopefully I can clarify some of this with Mona?

[sutton-in-craven]

"One road leading out of the village was known as t'Ellers. It was very steep and led to 'Sutton Stoop', a boundary stone on the hilltop, on to Goose Eye (Goise Ee) and from there to Haworth and the 'Bronte Country'. At the foot of t'Ellers was Gott Hill Farm, owned by Tommy Overton, while across the Beck was Sutton House surrounded by a large rookery known as 't'Craw Trees'.

Here in my early days lived Bill Ingham, a farmer and cattle dealer of good repute. At the foot of Gott Hill stood a building known as 't'Sizing House', a factory with a small chimney. This business of sizing warps was just another process in manufacture of woollens. The business had been prosperous but was now outmoded. I saw the chimney demolished and later a row of houses was built over the Beck."

Aha, I know the place very well. Got Hill Farm at the bottom of 't Ellers + Sutton House.

So, the sizing house factory with the small chimney could well have been the mill in question owned by Thomas Berry. Interesting that it was demolished and relaced by a row of houses built over the beck. I know the row of houses well, it's called 'Overburn' right at the foot of Ellers lane. Photo below, 'Overburn' can be seen on the right hand side with the archway over the burn or beck and the beck running right underneath the row of houses - amazing.

[BJanman]

Now if we can just find out why on earth he was described as 'Att. RND'... There are three possible ways this can happen ...that I can think of:

1) We find his service records at Kew and that they are missing from Ancestry - not outside the bounds of reasoning.

2) They are on Ancestry but in fact consist of just a couple of pieces of paper that are hidden in amongst someone else's Service Records and were missed when they were first scanned.

3) We find original paperwork from the Sutton-in-Craven War Memorial Committee minutes that explains why this detail was added to the memorial. Perhaps a search on local newspaper archives from the time the memorial was erected might give us a clue as to who they were. If it was a council run thing it might be minuted in council archives. If it's a Parish church thing would there be some sort of transcript for it?

More questions I'm afraid. Always more questions.

You could also check out the A.D.M.S.s war diary of the RND. He would be writing about the medical arrangements of the Division and it might reveal relevant information about when the R.A.M.C. took over officership in 1917. It is highly unlikely that Harry would be mentioned but stranger things have happened and at least it can then be ruled out as an information source if it isn’t helpful.

I haven’t been able to trace any service records to those with the service numbers immediately close to Harry’s service number. I have found something interesting [to me anyway] which is that 42855 Colin Beveridge entered the war in France on 9/1/1915. There are others who served on the Glenart Castle who entered the war on that date, they are

8810 Pte Goldsworthy John

42013 Pte Mavor George

42828 S/Sjt Richie John

42846 Pte Ferguson Jphn

44314 L/Cpl Kelso David

According to the MICs all those on the little list above entered the war on 9/1/1915 on a hospital ship, so I would say that backs up headgarderners theory about a few experienced men being added to the team to ensure the unit wasn’t too ‘Green’.

Just one thing I noticed about headgarderner’s list in post 208, and that is 85639 Cockcroft W is mentioned. I have him listed as ‘Died on route from India on H.S. “Delta” on 26th September 1917. If I’m correct and Cockcroft is removed from the list of casualties, would that make the figures right for Harry to be included in the number of casualties, as he obviously isn’t included as one of the survivors?

I’m off to France at the weekend to see if I can trace where the hospitals were situated in the port areas so won’t be able to continue my search of service numbers for a short while. I will catch up sometime soon though. I hope the DC is helpful but somehow I have a horrible feeling it will just state his unit as "R.A.M.C." Hopefully I’m wrong.

Barbara

[Old Owl]

Great stuff Andrew! It looks like the mystery has been solved--well done, to yourself and Louise.

Of course I know this part of Sutton well, as I often pass through here on my way to and from Keighley. The farm on the right of the picture has been a pub for many years, but in line with many rural pubs has been experiencing difficulties of late. I am not sure if it is still working, as I know some time ago it had a 'to let sign' outside.

These pictures of 'Owd Sutton' are great, are they originals?

Go Team Harry!

[ianw]

What's this 'Classic Thread' thingamajig that's now been referred to a couple of times?

Threads of particular merit can get the GWF equivalent of beatification by being elevated to the "classic threads" section. Several of them show the Forum at its best doggedly pursuing leads through to a fine conclusion. This one may well qualify - but who can second guess the byzantine processes at work in the minds of the men and women who serve as mods here!

[Andy Wade]

A new development has arisen that might shed some light on the 'Att RND' bit.

I've had a reply from the Sutton in Craven Parish Council Clerk about their Great War Memorial Committee minutes:

I've highlighted the relevant section in bold type:

Clerk. Sutton-in-Craven Parish Council.

14 September 2010 10:42.

A War Memorial was suggested in June 1919. The committee was formed by Councillors, Ministers and others. Later a Cenotaph was built of local stone with three bronze plaques in the names of the fallen. The first service at the Cenotaph was held in 1921 after it had been unveiled by Col. Bateman of Lyndhurst.

In the book The Old Community by Alec Wood it is written that a discrepancy in the number of names in the Church (49) and on the Cenotaph (40) is due to the fact that the Church roll includes men from Glusburn.

A separate plaque was fixed on the memorial after the 1939-1945 war. For funds towards this a house to house appeal took place between Easter and Whitsuntide, the balance was given anonimously. The Second World War Memorial tablet was unveiled on the 30th April 1950. A quotation of £103.10.0 (£103.50) was accepted from a local firm of monumental masons for the Second World War plaque.

Unfortunately this is the only information I have to hand. Parish Council past minutes are kept at the North Yorkshire County Record Office. These date from 1894. Also recorded in the archive list is the Committee minutes for the War Memorial Committee 1919-1921.

I hope this will be of some help.

Clerk. Sutton-in-Craven Parish Council

14 September 2010 11:20

Further information listed at the North Yorkshire Record Office:

Leaflet appealing for money for the war memorial 2nd May 1949

Letters and accounts relating to the war memorial 1949 -1950

Public Events:

Unveiling of the war memorial 19th March 1921

Unveiling of the war memorial 30 April 1950

Of course it remains to be seen whether or not these will give any further information, but that they exist at all is of great interest simply because it opens up a whole new line of enquiry for my research generally. How many other war memorial committee minutes might be available? There's always been the question of why certain people were recorded on memorials and why others weren't listed, even though evidence seems to be that they would fit the bill. These minutes might lead the way to discovering why certain decisions were made and with 2014 approaching it would be good to have them see the light of day again.

[Phil Evans]

The 1891 Census (RG12/3536 Folio 66 Page 9) has two Berry families at Berry's Yard in Sutton. John Berry, farmer, is in one, along with his sister, Sarah Ann Lund. In the other is James Berry, Coal Merchant. There are 4 households in total. Immediately following, on the next page, is Ellar's Lane.

Phil

[Chris Foster]

John Richardson my CPGW colleague had another look through the Craven Herald copies on our file and came up with this .

John's email reads

Hello Chris,

I am now up to date with Harry Lund, the pictures are great.

I have just checked the Craven Herald of 25 March 1921 for the unveiling of the Sutton War Memorial and it states: Pte. Samuel Lund, (R.A.M.C., attached Royal Naval Division). You may want to let 'Team Harry' know.

Regards,

John.

Regards

Chris

[headgardener]

Now if we can just find out why on earth he was described as 'Att. RND'...

Andy,

I see that you've posted some of the details of the various service records that you found, did you make a note of the units the various men served with between mobilization and deployment on the Glenart Castle? I suspect that they all came from a depot, and that the Glenart Castle was their first bit of active service (with the exception of the men with previous service, of course). Assuming that Harry was mobilized at about the same time as the others, and that the surviving service records only shows service in a depot, then I think that we can safely say that Harry followed the same route as the rest, and it would lend weight to my theory that the RND reference is an understandable mistake which was made by his family when submitting his name for inclusion on the memorial. the fact that he had an 'extended' family may have led to some confusion as to the likely unit that he served with.

Barbara,

Yes, I may well have made a mistake with Cockcroft; I went through the Hollybrook memorial looking at RAMC men, and I must have let that one slip through the net; that's why I couldn't find him on SDGW....!

I'm interested to see what comes out of the DC. I imagine that there could have been 2 DC's; one official one produced centrally by the War Department (just recording that he had died on active service), and one produced locally for whatever region Pembroke Dock is part of. Info on war-time DC's can be variable; a centrally produced DC would likely give just the very basics, while a locally one should tie him to the Glenart Castle. I very much doubt that it'll show anything relating to the RND.

Regarding the information that can be gained from the probate records; it'll just show the name of the administrator of his estate plus the total value of his estate. The more interesting research is likely to be the will; where was it made? who were the witnesses? why was it necessary for 'administration' to be applied for when he had clearly made out a will (the probate record shows 'administration with will' - I posted some comments about what this means earlier in the thread).

[Old Owl]

Andy,

I see that you've posted some of the details of the various service records that you found, did you make a note of the units the various men served with between mobilization and deployment on the Glenart Castle? I suspect that they all came from a depot, and that the Glenart Castle was their first bit of active service (with the exception of the men with previous service, of course). Assuming that Harry was mobilized at about the same time as the others, and that the surviving service records only shows service in a depot, then I think that we can safely say that Harry followed the same route as the rest, and it would lend weight to my theory that the RND reference is an understandable mistake which was made by his family when submitting his name for inclusion on the memorial. the fact that he had an 'extended' family may have led to some confusion as to the likely unit that he served with.

Barbara,

Yes, I may well have made a mistake with Cockcroft; I went through the Hollybrook memorial looking at RAMC men, and I must have let that one slip through the net; that's why I couldn't find him on SDGW....!

I'm interested to see what comes out of the DC. I imagine that there could have been 2 DC's; one official one produced centrally by the War Department (just recording that he had died on active service), and one produced locally for whatever region Pembroke Dock is part of. Info on war-time DC's can be variable; a centrally produced DC would likely give just the very basics, while a locally one should tie him to the Glenart Castle. I very much doubt that it'll show anything relating to the RND.

Regarding the information that can be gained from the probate records; it'll just show the name of the administrator of his estate plus the total value of his estate. The more interesting research is likely to be the will; where was it made? who were the witnesses? why was it necessary for 'administration' to be applied for when he had clearly made out a will (the probate record shows 'administration with will' - I posted some comments about what this means earlier in the thread).

Head Gardner,

I am hoping to see Harry's Will tomorrow--so will report back later.

Robert

[Verrico2009]

Some interesting additions.

Barbara, I'll see what I can find in the way of diaries: I'm popping back to Kew before too long to tie up the loose ends on the Glenart Castle papers.

Yes - great photos, Andrew. Very atmospheric.

Fantastic find in the archives, Andy – it'll be interesting what turns up. A great thought that they can be unearthed in time for the centenary. So from your friend's research, the memorial inscription was originally known to relate to Samuel. I wonder how many other men it names in full if they're now only commemorated by an initial?

Phil, those are the two Berry brothers Mona referred to as running the coal yard. Sarah Ann had looked after each of her parents and then continued living with her brothers. From what you say, it sounds as though they're still very much in the same area.

[Andy Wade]

Reposting the information again with probably the key evidence that indicates they were all in TC (?) R or S Company. Anyone know what TC means? Training College perhaps? I suspect I'm about to learn something...

123854 Bamford, Ernest:

Attested 10th Dec 1915.To reserve 11th Dec 1915

Mobilized 23rd Aug 1916

Relegated 24th Aug 1916

TC R Coy - Re-Mobilizede 7th Aug 1917

Posted 9th Aug 1917

Home from 19th Dec 1915 to 24 Feb 1918.

Glenart Castle -Reported missing believed drowned 26 Feb 1918

Drowned 26 Feb 1918

123869 Behnam, Harry:

MiC only - Vict and BWM - no other info.

123911 Blench, William:

Attested 2 Jun 1916

To reserve 2 Jun 1916

Discharge med unfit 31 Aug 1916

TC R Coy -Mobilized 9 Aug 1917

Posted RAMC 9 Aug 1917

Posted 19 Aug 17

Granted 5th rate corps pay 29 Dec 1917

Glenart Castle - Drowned 26 Feb 1918

123940 Jardine, Joseph:

General service (deemed to have been enlisted) 24 Jun 1916

TC R Coy -Posted RAMC 2 Aug 1917

Glenart Castle - Embarked 25 Feb 1918

Missing Believed drowned 26 Feb 1918

123979 Rogers, Percy:

26 Jul 1916 Varicose veins - unfit for any service - May be suitable for RAMC 30 May 1917.

General service 17 Jun 1917

TC S Coy -Called up 9 Aug 1917

Posted 10 Aug 1917

Embarked 25 Feb 1918

Missing Believed drowned 26 Feb 1918

123987 Wright, Thomas Henry:

General service (deemed to have been enlisted) 28 May 1916

TC S Coy -Called up 8 Aug 1917

Posted 9 Aug 1917

Dover reclassified Med grade B1 19 Jan 1918

Embarked 25 Feb 1918

Missing Believed drowned 26 Feb 1918

123943 Gilchrist, Lyon:

General service (deemed to have been enlisted) 2 Mar 1916

TC R Coy -Called up 2 Aug 1917

Posted 10 Aug 1917

Embarked 25 Feb 1918

Missing Believed drowned 26 Feb 1918.

###############################################

Edited to add:

Clamp, Charles - TC S Coy - 11 Aug 1917

Henry Donnelly - Can't make it out properly but it looks awfully like S Coy - 7 Aug 1917