The HARRY LUND investigation by 'Team Harry'

[sutton-in-craven]

Louise, that is an outstanding job, truly fantastic. There were some suggestions earlier in this thread that ATT may have meant Attendant, so now it is 100% confirmed it means Attached.

The other interesting thing for me is that whoever put Harry's name forward to be included on the Sutton memorial reverted back to Harry's birth name of Samuel. This is despite him being known as Harry for most of, or the latter half of his life and also enlisting into the army under the name Harry Lund.

And yes, the big question remains; why was he attached the R.N.D.?

Frustratingly, a list was publicly posted containing rank, regiment and WHERE SERVED, but it doesn't seem to have survived.

Man, that is so frustrating knowing there was a list, presumably not destroyed in the 1940 London Blitz, containing rank, regiment and where these Fallen men served.

In any case, it would seem that this list provided concrete evidence that Harry was in fact attached to the R.N.D.

Again, excellent work Louise, this is very good information.

[Andy Wade]

Again, excellent work Louise, this is very good information.

To take a day to go to Northallerton and pay for a permit to photograph the records is devotion indeed. And that after already stumping up for the death certificate which I know you gave to Mona to keep.

Well done Louise, and many thanks for the text updates too! You deserve your 15 minutes of fame. One day, maybe eh?

[Old Owl]

Well done Louise.

'Above and beyond the call of duty'-- is the phrase which springs to mind. You'll go far-- or at least you did today!!

Excellent!!

[Old Owl]

And yes, the big question remains; why was he attached the R.N.D.?

Hi Andrew,

I think that you need to look at page 1 of this thread, post no 8 by Horatio2. This seems to answer the question but seems? to have been overlooked? Or perhaps I have overlooked something?

Robert

P.S. How's your Sutton deadline looking?

[Verrico2009]

Andrew, Andy and Robert - many thanks for the kind words. But I'm a Rottie and I need to know once I'm on the trail: it's just what happens...

Robert, you'll recall your early post when you first found mention of Harry in the paper: "In a letter, dated February 24th, to Mr Laurence Preston, The Ellers, Sutton-in-Craven, Mr Lund stated...".

I was sitting here thinking something I've seen today rings a bell. And sure enough, he pops up all over the place in the Sutton Parish Council, but more particularly for our purposes, on the War Memorial Committee.

Andrew, sorry - my WHY was more "why was it added to the memorial": something the missing list might have helped with: it would at least clarify whether it was based on earlier service or whether Laurence Preston had made the assumption on the basis of Harry's last letter.

And Andy - I doubt it: you know me - I'd just corpse!

Edited to add: of course - Laurence Preston of The Ellers. Perhaps this is the man who bought up Thomas' property?

[BJanman]

I think that you need to look at page 1 of this thread, post no 8 by Horatio2. This seems to answer the question but seems? to have been overlooked? Or perhaps I have overlooked something?

Robert

You've definitely overlooked something. See my post 176 and I've been banging on about it ever sine.

Fact: Every Division had an Assistant Director of Medical Services (ADMS) attached

What I wasn't sure about is whether or not the the RAMC took over the role of ADMS when it took over officership of the RND. I was at Kew the other day looking up something else but whilst there ordered the ADMS's war diary. It confirms that on the 17th January 1917 information was received that all Naval Surgeons, with the exception of one per naval Battalion, were to be withdrawn and replaced by RAMC officers. On 12th January 1917 it states "Lt/Col Clements RAMC arrived and assumed the duties of A.D.M.S. 63rd (RN) Division.

The A.D.M.Ss would have had clerical staff - It is possible then that Harry [RAMC} could have been attached the RND, working in a clerical capacity. Well it makes more sense to me than it is likely that someone made the assumption that Harry was attached to the RND because he was serving on a hospital ship

I've been talking to my friend who was a medic in the navy and he has given me a few places to search for further information. What I'm now trying to establish is if it is possible that the navy or marines would have employed 'dispensary clerks'. I have also started setting up profiles for the RAMC who were serving on the Glenart Castle at the time of the sinking on my database. The profiles can be found here There is a small possibility that someone out there has information and will make contact via the website. Who knows, maybe Harry became good friends with another member serving on the ship and he wrote home about Harry. You'd be surprised what info I get through the website.

Cheers

Barbara

[horatio2]

The A.D.M.Ss would have had clerical staff - It is possible then that Harry [RAMC} could have been attached the RND, working in a clerical capacity. Well it makes more sense to me than it is likely that someone made the assumption that Harry was attached to the RND because he was serving on a hospital ship.

I entirely agree.

[Andy Wade]

That's very impressive Barbara. Feel free to lift all the information on Samuel (Harry) Lund from his Men of Worth page here. Mona (Harry's Great Niece) gave her express permission for the pictures to be used in any way we need, if it helps tell Harry's story and if it helps find out more information about him, so you'll be OK using them. If you would like higher resolution copies PM me with your email address and I'll send them to you.

[Old Owl]

You've definitely overlooked something. See my post 176 and I've been banging on about it ever sine.

Hi Barbara,

Apologies. Yes, it seems that I have not been following this a closely as I should have been. However, I was really only pointing Andrew in the direction of a posting which had been pointed out to me, and which possibly would answer his question?

Horatio2 seems to have come in with his explanation very early on in the thread and it seems that everyone ignored it? --at least for a while anyhow!!

Good luck in your quest.

Robert

[sutton-in-craven]

Apologies. Yes, it seems that I have not been following this a closely as I should have been.

The amazing thing about this Harry investigation is that it has attracted more than 450 posts and the quality and abundance of information submitted so far is truly staggering.

It's gotten to the stage where it is not the easiest task to think back and remember every detail in every post submitted since 20^th August, unless one is a reincarnation of the memory man!

[Andy Wade]

Harry has now got another page on the web, on the excellent RAMC site run by BJay.

Well done Barbara. It's great to see his memory really getting promoted out there into the ether. And it couldn't come at a better time of year.

RAMC - Harry Lund

[BJanman]

Thank you Andy. I decided to add some of the other information found, like the death certificate etc, so it reads more questionable than factual. I am hoping that someone who doesn't know about the forum, or who hasn't followed this thread but has information on Harry might contact to help. If it looks as if all the information is known they may not do that - I hope that makes sense.

By the way, well done for keeping the faith that Jesse White was not buried at sea, hopefully he will now get a CWGC headstone and stand out as a casualty of the Great War.

Robert -No worries, I understand

[Andy Wade]

Thank you Andy. I decided to add some of the other information found, like the death certificate etc, so it reads more questionable than factual. I am hoping that someone who doesn't know about the forum, or who hasn't followed this thread but has information on Harry might contact to help. If it looks as if all the information is known they may not do that - I hope that makes sense.

I still have some stuff to add to his MoW page to be honest. I had forgotten about the DC!

By the way, well done for keeping the faith that Jesse White was not buried at sea, hopefully he will now get a CWGC headstone and stand out as a casualty of the Great War.

Thank you! I know my theory came across as a bit unlikely at first, but I'm just pleased that the case for was enough to convince the 'Gravefinder General' Chris Harley to at least look at it.

Another great result. And again, at just the right time of year. I suppose it's down to experience, and my experience of things is that we shouldn't take anything we read as gospel. Even CWGC Memorials. I have found inconsistencies between service records and MiC's and SDGW and CWGC, in some cases they have different name spellings, dates don't match, previous trades are different on forms etc etc. Being suspicious is just part of the research until we've proven beyond all doubt that we have the right information.

I suppose Harry would still be unknown today if Andrew had accepted the apparent total lack of records for 'S Lund RAMC Att RND'.

As an update on Harry, I've been looking at the committee names on the Sutton in Craven War Memorial Committee minutes that Louise has recorded and I might be able to bring a little more information to this thread soon,

[Myrtle]

I know my theory came across as a bit unlikely at first, but I'm just pleased that the case for was enough to convince the 'Gravefinder General' Chris Harley to at least look at it.

Andy

Not unlikely, it just needed to be proved which it has been with Chris's research.

I suppose it's down to experience, and my experience of things is that we shouldn't take anything we read as gospel. Even CWGC Memorials. I have found inconsistencies between service records and MiC's and SDGW and CWGC, in some cases they have different name spellings, dates don't match, previous trades are different on forms etc etc. Being suspicious is just part of the research until we've proven beyond all doubt that we have the right information.

I totally agree. Anyone who rearches memorials and records should not presume. That is why it is important to provide the proof

Myrtle

[Verrico2009]

Harry has now got another page on the web, on the excellent RAMC site run by BJay.

Well done Barbara. It's great to see his memory really getting promoted out there into the ether. And it couldn't come at a better time of year.

Yes, great work Barbara - I understand what you say about the slant you've given it. All good if it brings in information from untapped sources.

Oooh - mystery information Andy: I look forward to learning what you've discovered about the committee members.

Well, the proof's been sitting there generally available since I first posted a link to the Glenart Castle papers I turned up at Kew, way back on 5 September, Myrtle. Good job Andy raised the subject of Jesse here after our chat and then gave him his own thread. I take it in the light of the subsequent discovery of his grave, you didn't pursue the line of enquiry in relation to the Parker's logs? I'm just vaguely thinking whether it would add to Harry's story, as obviously we now know just about everything concerning Jesse's rescue but the first we hear of Harry is that he comes on board delirious and quickly become unconscious (presumably never regaining lucidity as they clearly never got a name from him). We know the names of all the men who went into the water from the Parker in the rescue, although only two of them got awards and they were the ones who rescued Jesse, when all of them showed tremendous courage in the circumstances (my assumption is that their job was made even more dangerous by the ship's propellers and the injuries he'd sustained). So, if you did pursue it and there was any indication that they were available, it could be useful.

[Myrtle]

Louise

Although you found the information regarding a body having been taken ashore on the 26th, it was important to confirm that Jesse White had been buried on land, as the inscription on The Tower Hill Memorial, raised some doubt.

On the 31st August I posted an extract from an article in the Times that mentioned (later corrected) that The Parker had picked up two dead men in addition to the survivors, which also added some doubt, although as we all know newspaper stories are not always accurate!

Anyway now that Chris has found the site of Jesse White's grave it will be interesting to hear what CWGC decide to do.

I have received a reply from the States, regarding my enquiry on the Parker's Log. It appears that the records were passed on to another archive after 30 years. I have been sent the new address but as it required snail mail contact, I may have to wait some time for a reply.

Myrtle

[Verrico2009]

Myrtle

Yes, and the response came back exactly as was proven to be the case from the official papers (9 rescued and one subsequently died), because Dr MacNamara had been briefed - so the question was answered in the same piece and the papers I found simply backed it up, naming Jesse. Anyway, useful to be reminded of that article - particularly the fact that they mention they didn't dare stop the propellers in case of attack, when there's no mention of that in the official papers. "On the move, the whole time at considerable speed" gives a terrifying picture: if it's true it's rather a miracle only Jesse was fatally wounded. Unfortunately, there's other inconsistencies in Flannery's words (eg implying that it was only the same two men who went in time after time) that make me think he was slightly prone to melodrama.

It would be wonderful if Jesse could have a CWGC headstone. I imagine his name will remain on the Memorial. He had been lost, it's true.

That's quite impressive: I didn't think they'd be inclined to be remotely co-operative. Well, anything you can add will be welcome - looking at it from the USS Parker's viewpoint is something we haven't really explored.

[Myrtle]

Louise

That is why I wrote "(later corrected)".

I'm not surprised about the cooperation. I always find archivists and record offices very helpful.

Myrtle

[Verrico2009]

Of course, Myrtle: I apologise, I was concentrating purely on the text.

True, I have no complaints and at Kew in particular they're incredibly knowledgeable and patient (not to mention genuinely enthusiastic). I suppose I was just thinking that for the US Navy to dig out something like that must be like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Which reminds me, the MoD chappie hasn't responded to my email, which is worrying. Hope it arrived.

[Andy Wade]

Oooh - mystery information Andy: I look forward to learning what you've discovered about the committee members.

Nothing quite as mysterious as all that. I'd just noticed N B Chaffers as one of the committee members. Earlier in the thread Andrew alluded to local former Army officers being involved and one of them was Captain N B Chaffers M.C.

I had done a bit of information about him on the Men of Worth project and thought I'd bring it to the forum so that people could see the measure of at least one of the people who deliberated over the memorial. He'd suggested they have a statue of a 'stooping soldier' as a memorial but this proved to be too expensive at £900, as after letters were circulated to all homes in the parish, the local people made donations which amounted to only £200, which was £300 less than the committee had hoped for. They had some funding (I assume about £400) towards this already. They opted for the Great Cross and four bronze panels instead.

I note that the minutes also refer to Lord Harewood (the Lord Lieutenant) being involved in arranging for captured German guns to be issued to local villages and towns that requested them as a memento of the Great War, which he did for Sutton in Craven. I assume this will have been melted down for scrap during WW2. It's certainly not there any more. If only.

As a matter of interest, the war memorial committee also deliberated in the setting up of land for local former soldiers to use for market gardening, which they would eventually own. About an acre each.

I am breaking with tradition and not laying a wreath on the Oakworth memorial this year, as I will be accompanying Mona to Sutton in Craven. to lay a wreath to Harry there. After all, he was born an Oakworth man.

[sutton-in-craven]

I note that the minutes also refer to Lord Harewood (the Lord Lieutenant) being involved in arranging for captured German guns to be issued to local villages and towns that requested them as a memento of the Great War, which he did for Sutton in Craven. I assume this will have been melted down for scrap during WW2. It's certainly not there any more. If only.

Andy, here is a postcard picture of the captured German cannon in question from my personal collection of Sutton-in-Craven images.

I previously forwarded the image to the Sutton website for inclusion into the gallery and yes, the conclusion was it had been taken away to be melted down for the war effort in 1940/41

[sutton-in-craven]

I am breaking with tradition and not laying a wreath on the Oakworth memorial this year, as I will be accompanying Mona to Sutton in Craven. to lay a wreath to Harry there. After all, he was born an Oakworth man.

Andy, I think that is absolutely admirable and very fitting that you accompany Mona to the Sutton-in-Craven war memorial on Remembrance Day

Like you say, Our Harry was an Oakworth man anyway which is kind of ironic from your perspective. Only 2 more days to go before the big day. I'll probably have a little more to say tomorrow with one day to go

[Verrico2009]

Great to see the cannon - shame it's no longer there, but I guess there's something fitting about it playing its part in the subsequent war effort.

I haven't made the latest papers publicly available because I don't want to fall foul of the long disclaimer I had to sign and I think providing a link here would come under "publishing". However, they're happy with people viewing them for personal research, so if anyone would particularly like to see them, please drop me a PM. Unfortunately I think I have to treat the original leaflet as "copyright" until I've investigated a bit more.

I'm delighted to say I shall also be joining Mona and Andy on Sunday at Sutton memorial.

[Verrico2009]

Been meaning to ask - am I right in thinking that in Harry and Jesse, we have stumbled on the only two casualties of the Glenart Castle sinking to have been buried? As far as I can tell, the rest were lost at sea. If so, I don't know what the odds on that being the case when Andrew started this thread would have been...

[Old Owl]

As a matter of interest, the war memorial committee also deliberated in the setting up of land for local former soldiers to use for market gardening, which they would eventually own. About an acre each.

Hi Andy,

My mother-in-law lives in Glusburn on the opposite side of the valley to Sutton; looking from her lounge window it is possible to see the hillside behind Sutton where the land is split into small areas--these are known as 'the acres' and are the pieces of land which were given to local men who returned from the war and could not find a job--or that is how I understand it. So basically it would seem that the committee not only debated this but actually implemented this through the local land owner/owners. These seem to be to the left of the 'EIlers' as you look across the valley, there appear to be possibly a dozen such areas, although this is only a guess!! I am sure that Andrew will be able to elaborate on this? What a wonderful idea. There may well be records at Northallerton giving more details?

Regards, Robert