The HARRY LUND investigation by 'Team Harry'

[Old Owl]

I've been reading through the minutes books for the parish council that Louise got.

They mention Yorkshire County Council being able to pay up to 3/4 of the money for land purchase and there's also a mention of Sutton Parish Council helping out, but there's no final mention of what actually happened. There is a reference somewhere to the men eventually owning the land and even building homes on it, so maybe it was a hire purchase type agreement with an option to create a home there.

Agreed about Sylvester Petty but it's possible that his family requested that he be left off the memorial, or that he's commemorated elsewhere that we haven't though of yet.

Interesting, but that's not quite how imagined it--I always assumed that it would have been some sort of 'gift' from the local landowner. It's good to see that the Y.C.C. and the P.C. took responsibility and paid the bill? True support for those who served and returned, scarred both in body and mind--a sort of equivalent to modern day counselling!!

You could be right Andy?, but I suspect that Sylvester was one who simply missed the net when it was cast!! I think that his parents were dead by the time he ws killed and his sister may not have been aware of the search for names to be included on Sutton W.M. The family connection had simply 'lapsed', so to speak?

[sutton-in-craven]

Does anyone know who gave the land for the 'Acres'--obviously one of the local 'bigwigs', who generally were great benefactors to the local community, having of course made their wealth through that community by employing them in the local mills--so I suppose that this would be another way of giving back something to the community and in particular to those who had fought for 'King and Country'.

I wonder who gained when the land was sold for building? Was it still owned by the landowner or was it actually given, rather than loaned to the returned soldiers and their families--puts a slightly different tilt on the benefactor angle!!? Was the land given or just lent?

Robert, I think we now finally have the answers to these interesting questions, thanks to some more input from Sutton residents to my request for more information.

During the Great War 'The Acres' at that time was part a 5 acre meadow being part of Briggs Farm and part of an 8 acre pasture being part of Frank Stirk's farm.

These one acre blocks were definitely donated as a gift to these returning servicemen as opposed to being leased or let to them. Subsequently some of the original people who had benefitted from the gift of land erected bungalows on the land. These days of course these blocks of land have been handed down to descendents of these WW1 servicemen and virtually every 'Acre' has now been built on.

So who actually donated these acre blocks of land to returning servicemen?

As previously mentioned on this thread, the big mill owner John William Hartley who owned half of Sutton died in 1911. Part of his Will bequeathed a large area of land in the middle of the village with instructions that it was to be made into a park for the benefit of the villagers. Sutton park was subsequently opened on 20th July 1912.

The rest of John William Hartley's estate was left to his sister Emma who continued to live in Sutton Hall for a while before moving down to Glen Garth (Butterfly House) that overlooks the village park. So it was Emma Hartley who bestowed 'The Acres' to these returning WW1 veterans. A wonderful gesture.

Fascinating really as I never knew this part of Sutton's history.

[Andy Wade]

That seems more likely to be what happened, as I said, the minutes only refer to YCC being 'able' to fund 3/4 of the cost, not that they did, and it looks as if it was just the early days for the discussions about what eventually became 'The Acres'. I think we can be fairly sure that Steeton Parish Council 'fought the corner' on behalf of the men who returned from the war. They certainly seemed to be in at the start anyway.

Sylvester Petty is one that might benefit from the Team Harry treatment as I'm sure there's a story to be told here. Perhaps a dig around the census and electoral registers might find some clues as to what remaining family, if any, were left behind to put his name forward for inclusion on the war memorial. There was certainly a period of public consultation with the proposed list being put up at the local post office. I find it hard to believe in such a close knit local community that someone didn't at least put his name forward for consideration.

[Old Owl]

Robert, I think we now finally have the answers to these interesting questions, thanks to some more input from Sutton residents to my request for more information.

During the Great War 'The Acres' at that time was part a 5 acre meadow being part of Briggs Farm and part of an 8 acre pasture being part of Frank Stirk's farm.

These one acre blocks were definitely donated as a gift to these returning servicemen as opposed to being leased or let to them. Subsequently some of the original people who had benefitted from the gift of land erected bungalows on the land. These days of course these blocks of land have been handed down to descendents of these WW1 servicemen and virtually every 'Acre' has now been built on.

So who actually donated these acre blocks of land to returning servicemen?

As previously mentioned on this thread, the big mill owner John William Hartley who owned half of Sutton died in 1911. Part of his Will bequeathed a large area of land in the middle of the village with instructions that it was to be made into a park for the benefit of the villagers. Sutton park was subsequently opened on 20th July 1912.

The rest of John William Hartley's estate was left to his sister Emma who continued to live in Sutton Hall for a while before moving down to Glen Garth (Butterfly House) that overlooks the village park. So it was Emma Hartley who bestowed 'The Acres' to these returning WW1 veterans. A wonderful gesture.

Fascinating really as I never knew this part of Sutton's history.

Hi Andrew,

Yes, fascinating, however, there does seem to be a little controversy regarding who actually paid for the land? Was it a gift from Emma Hartley or did she sell it to Y.C.C.and S.P.C. for them to allocate to those returning soldiers who were deserving cases? I am fairly sure that the number of men who returned from the war would be far higher than the number of plots(acres) allocated or indeed that were available(26?)--was there some sort of 'means test' or were they given to those who had lost limbs and who would not be able to find employment due to wounds received? I wonder if a list of the allocations still exists?--sounds like a case for our 'in house rottweiler'--sorry Louise, but you do have the knack!!

This would actually be most interesting and would add another facet to the Sutton War Memorial!!

Just a thought? Sounds like a load more work for the site or should I say the'Team' over to you Andrew:

[Verrico2009]

Well, I certainly will go back to the County Archives in the New Year, Robert - kicking myself for not taking a shot of all the papers available for Sutton so we could see. But they never turned up the missing file: something else to chase when I get the time.

In the meantime, since you asked and I have an almost photographic memory. 241 "served and returned", 40 fallen. Spose we could count how many are on the pamphlet, who are the ones who made it onto the memorial...

[Edit: I think we might be stuck on the first owners of each acre - the 1921 census doesn't come out for some time yet! Although if the parish council were involved there could be some records.]

[Old Owl]

Well, I certainly will go back to the County Archives in the New Year, Robert - kicking myself for not taking a shot of all the papers available for Sutton so we could see. But they never turned up the missing file: something else to chase when I get the time.

In the meantime, since you asked and I have an almost photographic memory. 241 "served and returned", 40 fallen. Spose we could count how many are on the pamphlet, who are the ones who made it onto the memorial...

[Edit: I think we might be stuck on the first owners of each acre - the 1921 census doesn't come out for some time yet! Although if the parish council were involved there could be some records.]

Hi Louise,

The number of 'served and returned' is actually a lot higher than I expected, a ratio of 6 to 1 !! Having said that I wonder how many actually returned unscathed (in body that is)?

Probably not as many as one might think?

Yes, I think that the first owners have to be in some sort of committee minutes? or similar---there must have been a list of names put forward with reasons for the applications, most probably at P.C.level?

Speak to you soon, Robert

[Andy Wade]

Andrew,

Not sure if you have these two as well as Sylvester Petty. Neither are on the Sutton in Craven war memorial. At least not with these christian names anyway...:

CLOUGH, BERTRAM GREENWOOD

Initials: B G

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Royal Fusiliers

Unit Text: 11th Bn.

Age: 25

Date of Death: 18/09/1918

Service No: 79675

Additional information: Son of Frederick Petty Clough and Lucy Ellen Clough, of Sutton Mill, Keighley, Yorks.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: I. B. 13.

Cemetery: STE. EMILIE VALLEY CEMETERY, VILLERS-FAUCON

SMITH, SAMUEL

Initials: S

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Gunner

Regiment/Service: Royal Garrison Artillery

Unit Text: 29th Coy.

Age: 40

Date of Death: 25/09/1916

Service No: 113037

Additional information: Born at Sutton Mill-in-Craven, Keighley. Son of William and Susannah Smith.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: 7176.

Cemetery: COWES (NORTHWOOD) CEMETERY

[sutton-in-craven]

Yes, fascinating, however, there does seem to be a little controversy regarding who actually paid for the land? Was it a gift from Emma Hartley or did she sell it to Y.C.C.and S.P.C. for them to allocate to those returning soldiers who were deserving cases?

Hi Robert, OK a little more information that may help to clarify this issue.

The book 'Sutton-in-Craven, The Old Community' edited by Alec Wood reveals some interesting detail regarding the 1911 sale of farms in Sutton by Miss Emma Hartley and explains why Miss Emma still had the land on the Acres to donate to returning soldiers after the Great War.

Both Brigg Gate Farm and Stirk's Farm, although offered for sale, were withdrawn. In fact the majority of farms offered for sale were withdrawn or no offer was made, money was obviously short back then. This is why she still had the land to donate to these servicemen at the end of WW1

Andy has already pointed out that the minutes of the war memorial committee deliberated in the setting up of land for local soldiers to use for market gardening which they would own, about an acre each. He also points out that the Yorkshire County Council were prepared to stump up to three quarters of the money for land purchases and also a mention of Sutton Parish Council helping out. However there is no mention of what actually happened.

What actually happened was that Emma Hartley who still owned many farms in the Sutton area, donated this land known as The Acres to these returned servicemen, in the same way her brother John William Hartley donated land in the middle of the village to be made into a park for the benefit of Sutton's residents. So nobody paid for the land, the Y.C.C. and S.P.C. did not buy the land to allocate to returning soldiers. This was a 100% gift from the heiress of a substantial mill owner who literally owned half of Sutton.

The second part of your question is not as clear cut. How were these returning servicemen prioritized in terms of who got the acre blocks and who didn't?

What we do know is that ex-servicemen who were unable to find work after WW1 were given priority. These people undoubtedly fell into the category of amputees, gas victims etc. I've no doubt that some servicemen missed out on receiving a plot of land, but then remember that Sutton has 2 huge textile mills employing probably a couple of thousand people between them, not to mention all the other mills in surrounding villages.

I know from looking at the 1911 census that many Sutton soldiers already worked in these mills prior to WW1. Perhaps the majority of returned soldiers were able to resume work in these mills and only the 20 odd amputees or whoever needed extra assistance in the form of a small land donation.

[sutton-in-craven]

Andrew,

Not sure if you have these two as well as Sylvester Petty. Neither are on the Sutton in Craven war memorial. At least not with these christian names anyway...:

Good work and well spotted Andy, no I certainly did not know about Pte B.G. Clough and Gnr S. Samuel, both conspicuous by their absence from the Sutton war memorial.

These 2 names are in addition to Pte Sylvester Petty who was born & bred in Sutton and killed during WW1. His name appears on the Sutton Baptist Chapel Bronze Memorial Tablet, however his name is mysteriously missing from the Sutton war memorial.

Furthermore, 2nd Lieutenant Harry Edwards who lived at Manor Hill, Sutton and was very well known and popular around the village was killed in 1917. It would appear that his name does not appear on any memorial at all!

So that totals at least 4 servicemen who were residents of Sutton-in-Craven and who are not listed on the village war memorial having paid the ultimate sacrifice.

My main priority at the moment is completing the Fallen project on the 40 names on the Sutton memorial in time for the 90^th anniversary of its unveiling next March 19th. After that I will in all likelihood look into these 4 men and any others that may surface in much more detail.

[Andy Wade]

Good work and well spotted Andy, no I certainly did not know about Pte B.G. Clough and Gnr S. Samuel, both conspicuous by their absence from the Sutton war memorial.

Well if it's any consolation I have a similar problem with the Oakworth war memorial in that I have at least a dozen men who in my opinion could have been included on it but for some reason were left off. Even one who had a military funeral in the parish church right in the middle of the village, complete with honour guard and firing party provided by the Duke of Wellington's Regiment. He did die in hospital of liver cancer (so that might explain why he was omitted), but he was home convalescing with a serious shrapnel injury having definitely served in the trenches. The CWGC have him down, but not here in his home village.

[Verrico2009]

Furthermore, 2nd Lieutenant Harry Edwards who lived at Manor Hill, Sutton and was very well known and popular around the village was killed in 1917. It would appear that his name does not appear on any memorial at all!

Not even CWGC?

There's this man:-

Name: EDWARDS, HARRI WILLIS

Initials: H W

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Second Lieutenant

Regiment/Service: East Lancashire Regiment

Unit Text: 1st/5th Bn.

Date of Death: 28/04/1917

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Pier and Face 6 C.

Memorial: THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

[sutton-in-craven]

Furthermore, 2nd Lieutenant Harry Edwards who lived at Manor Hill, Sutton and was very well known and popular around the village was killed in 1917. It would appear that his name does not appear on any memorial at all!

Sorry, my apologies, I should have been more specific in saying 2 Lt Edwards is not commemorated on any local memorial in the Sutton area. By that I mean his name does not appear on the village park cenataph, Sutton Baptist Chapel bronze memorial tablet or the Roll of Honour in St Thomas's Church in Sutton.

[Chris Foster]

Quite right Andy. H W Edwards name was on the Bank of Liverpool and St Martins bronze tablet in Skipton which I think was in the building now run by Barclays bank.

Sadly the tablet as gone missing.

Chris

[Andy Wade]

Quite right Andy. H W Edwards name was on the Bank of Liverpool and St Martins bronze tablet in Skipton which I think was in the building now run by Barclays bank.

Sadly the tablet as gone missing.

Chris

Has anyone contacted them about it? I ask because this is what we're doing at the moment with our 'lost' Keighley war memorials. So far the Prudential (very helpful) have drawn a blank and so have the Co-op (not as helpful). We're awaiting replies from others.

The Cliffe Castle Museum Collections officers have been brilliant recently and I expect they'll find the last one of the eight memorials in storage that we couldn't find (we have now photographed and recorded names from the other seven). We 'discovered' two Keighley ones that aren't listed (I know they're Keighley because of the unique names on them). We're hopeful that we'll find out where they originated from. I know you've had a fair bit of success with local war memorials in the past. We might be repeating that success in the near future. Watch this space...

[dfaulder]

Looking through the CPGW website I read reference to a Naval Sick Berth Reserve; this appears to have consisted of Army personnel. I have not hear of this "unit" before; might something similar have been the origin of the "att RND"?

David

[Chris Foster]

Has anyone contacted them about it? I ask because this is what we're doing at the moment with our 'lost' Keighley war memorials. So far the Prudential (very helpful) have drawn a blank and so have the Co-op (not as helpful). We're awaiting replies from others.

The Cliffe Castle Museum Collections officers have been brilliant recently and I expect they'll find the last one of the eight memorials in storage that we couldn't find (we have now photographed and recorded names from the other seven). We 'discovered' two Keighley ones that aren't listed (I know they're Keighley because of the unique names on them). We're hopeful that we'll find out where they originated from. I know you've had a fair bit of success with local war memorials in the past. We might be repeating that success in the near future. Watch this space...

Andy, glad you've brought that up. Our next phase is to redo some of the photos of memorials/plaques etc . Back in 2006 when we were gathering the main bulk of information for CPGW, we were were up against a time restraint . As a consequence some of the images are not up to scratch.

Anyway to cut a long story short getting in touch with Barclays is on the list that never stops growing !

I assume you're refering to the Silsden Chapels memorials, when you mention our success ?

Chris

[Andy Wade]

Yes, that's right.

The current situation is that Keighley Town Council have bought the old police station building in the town centre and will turn it into a 'one stop shop' for council services. This will make it an ideal publicly owned building in which to house our stored war memorials. And that idea has already received a lot of support from the people that matter, the Cliffe Castle Museum staff are being very supportive. I guess for them it's heartbreaking seeing things in storage that they have no way of putting out on display.

We have 54 war memorials or rolls of honour for Keighley.

It was 53, but another has been found and has been re-dedicated this year and will be put up on the wall at Ingrow Railway Station.

Of these 54, 10 are still missing and recorded as 'lost' with the UKNIWM. It was originally 12, but we have found three this year, which is wonderful news.

We hope to find the rest of them before 2014, so we have a bit of time to search and ask about.

Hattersley's Mill, which apparently employed thousands, had an oak backboard 14 feet long and 6 feet high, with 6 bronze panels fitted. We understand that the oak board is in use by Keighley Cricket Club to hold the lists of names of club captains, presidents etc, so the whereabouts of the 6 bronze panels is currently a mystery. I do hope they weren't melted down for scrap. If we can locate for sure the oak backboard with the Cricket Club, then we will at least have a place to start searching.

Good luck with Barclays Bank. Perhaps the imminent centenary will galvanise some of these institutions into taking action to search for these reminders of our nations heritage.

Edited to add my apologies for going off topic a little.

Edited 26 November , 2010 by Andy Wade

[Chris Foster]

In the New year, I hope to do a spot of renovation to the three memorial plaque's (In my former life I was a French Polisher) nothing major . They just look a bit tired and need the years of grease and grime cleaning off, and a tickle up .

Good luck with your continuing search Andy .

Now then, back to Sutton.....

[sutton-in-craven]

We have 54 war memorials or rolls of honour for Keighley.

It was 53, but another has been found and has been re-dedicated this year and will be put up on the wall at Ingrow Railway Station.

Of these 54, 10 are still missing and recorded as 'lost' with the UKNIWM. It was originally 12, but we have found three this year, which is wonderful news. We hope to find the rest of them before 2014

That's quite incredible Andy. Finding a lost memorial and re-dedicating it in 2010 before mounting it on the wall at Ingrow station is wonderful. Also finding additional Keighley memorials previously 'lost' is just terrific.

It beggars belief that these memorials could go missing and get lost in the first place. Every now and then, I see one come up on ebay FOR SALE !!!!! There's one on at the moment in the USA, a Vietnam memorial tablet with maybe 15 names on

Whilst on the subject and going back to Sutton. I know I have alluded to this before Chris but does anyone know why Sutton-in-Craven has a war memorial in the village park whereas the nearby villages of Glusburn, Crosshills and Farnhill do not? I realize the men from these additional villages are mentioned on either the Sutton or Kildwick memorials.

I can think of much smaller villages, some with tiny populations such as Lothersdale and Laycock who do have their own dedicated memorial.

I'm not talking about memorial tablets in Churches and Chapels, it's the visible and iconic memorial that sits in the middle of a village for all to see.

[Chris Foster]

Difficult one Andrew. there could be a whole number of reasons why some villages have a War Memorial and others don't.

If we take where I live, the village of Hebden, there's a plaque in the church but no outside Memorial. The Hebden men do appear however on the Memorial at Linton churchyard a couple of miles away. Hebden is part of the Parish of Linton so this may well be a factor .

Sylvester Petty was living with his sister Edith at 170 Spencer St Keighley according to the 1911 census and a Craven Herald newspaper articleat the tome of his death . Occupation House painter.

Maybe another one Andy, to add to your list as Sylvester straddles both districts.

CPGW

http://www.cpgw.org.uk/viewDetail.cfm?sID=185-01

Craven Herald articles

http://www.cpgw.org.uk/craven_herald_articles.cfm?sID=185-01

http://www.cpgw.org.uk/craven_herald_articles.cfm?sID=185-01&arID=3

Adanac (Canada backwards) Military Cem. Miraumont. The Somme

Regards

Chris

[sutton-in-craven]

The 1891 Census (RG12/3536 Folio 66 Page 9) has two Berry families at Berry's Yard in Sutton. John Berry, farmer, is in one, along with his sister, Sarah Ann Lund. In the other is James Berry, Coal Merchant. There are 4 households in total. Immediately following, on the next page, is Ellar's Lane.Phil

Some more information has surfaced on Berry's sizing house which was subsequently demolished to make way for the construction of Sutton Hall. The James Berry in question is presumably Harry's uncle

http://www.sutton-in...sizinghouse.asp

EDIT: was presumably Harry's uncle!

[Verrico2009]

Nice find. James was Harry's great-grandfather. I attach an extract from one of the Sutton papers where Mona confirmed that was James' relationship to Harry. [Edit: yes, that James is Harry's uncle - the James in the link is the one I was referring to, obviously!]

[KevinBattle]

The photo of New Market cottage in the attachment looks similar to my memory of one earlier in the thread of a somewhat ramshackle house, about Harry playing/cycling around Sutton Court area. I haven't found it in the thread, but no doubt some of you may recall it (unless I'm mistaken!). Presumably Probate amount of £643 approx was the residue of his of his mothers Estate after her death in 1914?

It makes Sarah Anne's marriage to Sam Lund the shepherd slightly stranger, she obviously was from a wealthy family, whereas he seems to have nowt, and £600 in 1920 must have represented a very substantial amount. Was Sam paid to stay up on the moors? At this rate we'll have enough for a sequel! Gone with the Lund? Lund of Hope and Glory? The Harry Lund Theme?

[Andy Wade]

The photo of New Market cottage in the attachment looks similar to my memory of one earlier in the thread of a somewhat ramshackle house, about Harry playing/cycling around Sutton Court area. I haven't found it in the thread, but no doubt some of you may recall it (unless I'm mistaken!). Presumably Probate amount of £643 approx was the residue of his of his mothers Estate after her death in 1914?

It makes Sarah Anne's marriage to Sam Lund the shepherd slightly stranger, she obviously was from a wealthy family, whereas he seems to have nowt, and £600 in 1920 must have represented a very substantial amount. Was Sam paid to stay up on the moors? At this rate we'll have enough for a sequel! Gone with the Lund? Lund of Hope and Glory?

The picture of New Market is indeed one that has featured in the thread. Someone remarked at the time that it would have made a very sought after property nowadays had it not been demolished. It looks idyllic to me. There's some fair wear on those stone steps. Years of iron soled clogs trudging up and down them.

Two completely different building too, one is grander than the other with nice stone quoins and roof verge details, and looks like it originally had an arched entrance way through to the courtyard.

Harry left that amount to his brother I think.

[sutton-in-craven]

Yes, on the 1901 census Sarah put herself down as head of the family (not that strange really if Samuel was indeed working away) but also as a 'widow' which is a really odd thing to do when your husband is actually still alive:

In the 1901 census Samuel was at 41, Laycock Lane, Laycock, and apparently retired at age 48. In the 1911 census he was living at 23, Laycock Lane and he died at 14, North Street, Haworth, aged about 70. (which I think would be somewhere around 1923).

Well here's the man himself, Harry's sheep farming father Samuel Lund. He was born at Clew Bank Farm, Laycock near Keighley on 18th December 1852 and died in Haworth on 26th February 1923 aged 70 years (spot on Andy). He was known at "Sam at Dobbin" living and farming at Dobfield Farm in Laycock.

Photo and additional information courtesy of Mona, Samuel's Great Granddaughter