The HARRY LUND investigation by 'Team Harry'

[Old Owl]

Hi Verrico,

Brilliant, that's hit the nail on the head. I am sure that Andrew will be delighted. The 'widow' and then back to 'married' is probably a mistake on one or other of the census forms? More probably today it would say- 'seperated' !!?

Robert

[Verrico2009]

Glad to have sorted that one, but I subscribe to Ancestry and Genes and, like everyone else, had drawn a blank: I usually only use findmypast for the 1911 census, but it's turned up trumps this time. If only there was a single, correct database: it doesn't look as though Harry was particularly hiding!

I agree Robert - the 1901 enumerator probably couldn't get his or her head around Harry's parents' marital arrangements and decided "widow" was the closest description. Or maybe Sarah didn't consider it anybody else's business! For all we know, they could have been the happiest "unmarried" couple you could meet...

Edited to add: perhaps Sarah moved back in with her brothers after her father died. It may have been an arrangement that suited everybody. In fact, I note her mother died in 1887, which may be the key.

[sutton-in-craven]

You've done it again Verrico, great work in finding the 1901 census for Harry on FindmyPast. For whatever reason Ancestry 1901 census doesn't show Harry.

OK, my thoughts – it kind of looks like Harry's parents decided to 'split up' for what ever reason, I suspect very acrimoniously. This is why Sarah Ann, who was still bitter about the break up classed herself as widowed on the 1901 census because in her mind the marriage was already dead - AND, this is why Samuel no longer wanted have the same name as his father because he too was angry towards his dad, so he told everyone to call him Harry instead to try and disassociate himself from his father.

Pure conjecture, speculation and a vivid imagination on my part!

[Verrico2009]

Not acrimonious enough for her to revert to her maiden name and change Harry to Berry too, though (as happened in my family around the same time).

Harry's born in 1892 (got his birth record on Ancestry) when Sarah's already back with her own family, so Sam senior's still got visiting rights. I think it's simply a question of naming him after his dad but never using it. He's Harry already at aged 8 - hopefully a bit young to be full of spite towards his father. Perhaps Harry's relative can throw some light on it.

[Edited to add: I think Harry's working on some kind of hotline, Andrew - the amount of information that's surfacing from different people is quite phenomenal! ]

[sutton-in-craven]

LOL, I think you're probably on the money there Verrico, I can't believe I allowed modern day cynicism to pollute my mind!

Yes, I think our Harry would be pretty chuffed if he knew the commotion he's stirred up 92 years after his cruise down the Bristol Channel came to an explosive end.

I'm still trying to sift through all the data on this thread to complete the file on him, I'm about half way there. Initially I thought this was going to be the easiest of the 40 profiles for the Sutton memorial – NOTHING KNOWN – next, but as it happens it's turning out to be quite a complex task. I'm sure when it's finished it will be my favourite file, if not the most memorable to complete!

[Verrico2009]

Actually, Tony - my next comment was going to be our only real hope on service papers is if someone comes along in due course and says "I was just researching Joe Bloggs when I found Lund's papers bundled in with them". So ask away!

[27thBN]

Louise this has been a great thread just shows what the forum can come up with at times amazing amounts of info out of seemingly not much. I cut the last reply thought it was a bit cheeky

Cheers Tony

[sutton-in-craven]

Hi Tony, yes it's pretty impressive stuff. My initial inquiry was "what does RAMC (ATT. RND) mean because there's a bloke I can't find anything on?

106 replies later I just about know the inside leg measurement of the bloke and what he used to eat for breakfast!

[Verrico2009]

Not at all, Tony - the whole thread's been quite light-hearted and I'm sure it's entirely appropriate. We even had a mention of "water-tight" earlier!

We are just very lucky that Harry's family (specifically his brother's) kept his memory alive and that his relative was interested enough to respond to my initial query. I've sent messages to plenty of people who clearly have information that could help me with my own family research but I don't hear back.

[27thBN]

Yes it rather Expanded from what do the letters mean to did he like fries with his burger .At times it all comes together and falls in place. I so liked your comment about not asking about a soldier from Caesars Army

Cheers Tony ..

[Andy Wade]

Maybe it's worth sticking in classic threads as an example of not losing faith when you have hit a wall with your research. Just ask on here and the GWF does what it does best. Mind you, it does help when one person is a 'bit of a Rottweiller' when it comes to digging into archives...

[Verrico2009]

Originally coined by my brother as a slightly derogatory term cos he regards my approach as unorthodox, Andy. He doesn's approve of grabbing facts by the scruff of the neck and shaking them around to see what falls out! Of course now he sees some results, he's not averse to calling me in when he hits a wall!

Just making my way back from the library with copies of those articles. There was another one, which I discovered too late to do today and it really only reiterates what we know. The only point of real interest is that it mentioned a correspondent from Plymouth, which might be another area to check for follow-ups.

I've been through a months' worth of YEP reports, as they're where relatives' details and photos appear. Terribly faint and not entirely complete. About two weeks' worth of the bare casualty lists in the YP was all my eyes could manage. Not found anything useful in either.

What strikes me as odd is that we know a reasonable amount about the man now, but so little of "his" war. But I guess I should just be grateful so far.

[Verrico2009]

Maybe it's worth sticking in classic threads as an example of not losing faith...

Yay - Harry officially "hot" and "classic" into the bargain: that'd be a result!

[Verrico2009]

Going back to Andrew's posting about census returns and living apart, it occurs to me there's a theme running through this. Wool, that staple of the mill life and sometimes undertaken as a home business. Samuel Snr is a shepherd. Grandfather Thomas is a warp sizer. Elizabeth works in a worsted mill. Maybe that's how Harry's parents met. Maybe the farms were linked by tenancy or whatever. According to multimap, it's a mere 2.74 miles from Laycock to Sutton: approximately 53 minutes walk by today's standards and probably quite a bit less then. And they had invented 'osses even then, of course: not only essential to the war effort! There's quite possibly even a packhorse route over the tops. Or maybe it was Sarah who did all the to-ing and fro-ing, as admittedly farming and shepherding are not 9-5 jobs.

And, curiously, the newspaper article implies that Samuel and Sarah lived together at West Street and doesn't mention the fact that she had passed away by the time of Harry's death.

[Edited to add: I've finally viewed the original 1901 census entry (even findmypast gives an incorrect link and I'm having no luck with Ancestry whatsoever, but Genes came up trumps]

[Verrico2009]

Ooooh - look what I've found with the new trick you guys showed me....

http://www.archive.org/stream/waronhospitalshi00newy/waronhospitalshi00newy_djvu.pdf

Haven't looked yet!

[headgardener]

Ooooh - look what I've found with the new trick you guys showed me....

Louise, THIS is the easiest format ('read online'). Please do try to keep up.....

Checked it for references, the only 'Lund' is the one contained in 'Lundy island'. There's a survivor's account, which tells us that there was just the crew and the staff of the hospital (i.e. the hospital on the ship). Which also sort of confirms my much expressed view about his connection with the RND....

[Verrico2009]

Doing my best, sir - there's a lot to learn! It's also very hard to find anything more than general information on the sinking but I thought it might be of interest to some experts.

Yes, I'd really like some details on his service too but I'm not sure where they're going to come from. I'm still puzzled by the reference to him signing up "early", when all we've got is an MIC that indicates he didn't go abroad before 1916. Would he have been entitled to the duo if his only sortie was the ill-fated voyage, or is it possible that he had been attached to the RND earlier and it was just not noted on the MIC? I take your point about him not being attached when sailing on the Glenart Castle.

[Old Owl]

You've done it again Verrico, great work in finding the 1901 census for Harry on FindmyPast. For whatever reason Ancestry 1901 census doesn't show Harry.

OK, my thoughts – it kind of looks like Harry's parents decided to 'split up' for what ever reason, I suspect very acrimoniously. This is why Sarah Ann, who was still bitter about the break up classed herself as widowed on the 1901 census because in her mind the marriage was already dead - AND, this is why Samuel no longer wanted have the same name as his father because he too was angry towards his dad, so he told everyone to call him Harry instead to try and disassociate himself from his father.

Pure conjecture, speculation and a vivid imagination on my part!

Andrew, is it me or are we getting confused here? I thought that he was born as Harry and was, or liked to be known as Samuel? Sorry to be picking nits here but I think I have it the right way round!!? If not just tell me to go away!!

Robert

[Verrico2009]

Born Samuel known to everyone as Harry, Robert.

[Old Owl]

Ok, I'll go away and stop picking nits!!

[headgardener]

Would he have been entitled to the duo if his only sortie was the ill-fated voyage, or is it possible that he had been attached to the RND earlier and it was just not noted on the MIC? I take your point about him not being attached when sailing on the Glenart Castle.

Yes, this ill-fated voyage may be all he would have needed to earn his BW&VM.

Yes it is possible that he had earlier service with the RND but, no, it wouldn't be shown on his MIC. He served with the RAMC and this is what would appear on the MIC.

The only possible places that more details could come from would be (imo) another newspaper obit, the CWGC register, a roll of honour, or a death cert.

Edit; regarding him 'signing up early', many men joined up in 1914 but never saw overseas service during the war, so the fact that he didn't serve overseas before 1 Jan '16 is not at all unusual. Remember that he had 2 years between Jan '16 and Feb '18 in which to have served in France with the RND.

[Verrico2009]

No, no, Robert - please stay around. We need your input!

Well, all I can think of to do next is check those medal rolls and keep my fingers crossed that there's more just waiting to be discovered, headgardener.

[BJanman]

I'm still puzzled by the reference to him signing up "early", when all we've got is an MIC that indicates he didn't go abroad before 1916.

I would be very surprised if he joined up early as his service number 115666 suggests he joined late. Many of the service numbers this high were given to men who transferred into the RAMC from combatant regiments or men who enlisted around late 1916 - early 1917.

Verrico2099, I am presuming that it is you who has left a message on my website with information about your research here and a link to this thread. If it is then I do apologise for the delay in responding but have been really busy lately, I will contact you directly asap. If it wasn't then fine I'll delete, I wouldn't take other people's research without their permission.

Barbara

[sutton-in-craven]

Still not sure how to do this 'quote' bizzo in a tidy little box on GWF, there are a few points I want to address

Quote by Verrico – "What strikes me as odd is that we know a reasonable amount about the man now, but so little of "his" war. But I guess I should just be grateful so far"

Yes, I agree there seems to be a lot of info' on the sinking of the Glenart Castle, which thankfully you guys have been able to link to Harry's demise. But in terms of Harry's actual war service there seems to be quite little and several question marks. Lots of conjecture on this and that, why he joined up early but possibly didn't see oversees war service if the sinking was his first sortie, or maybe he did see oversees war service

The R.N.D. thing is a bit of a mystery - to me. Still can't entirely get my head around the R.N.D bit. or not as the case may be, despite Headgardeners definitive statements on the matter. (don't shout at me Headgardener and no need to reiterate your previous assertions on the matter for the less educated like me!)

To be quite honest, I'm delighted with the result of this posting and I am now almost through constructing a readable and informative file on Harry Lund. I really did not want to compile just 39 files of Sutton's Fallen and leave the 1 file incomplete, but now I can complete the whole task.

In actual fact, the information that has been uncovered on Harry is at least equal to, if not more than I have on one or two of the other servicemen on Sutton's memorial. So if nothing more can be found on Harry then I'm still delighted with the result.

Great theory Verrico about the family collaboration in producing wool products from raw materials through to the finished garments. Beats my cynical family feud hypothesis!

Incidentally I don't know of a West Street in Sutton, certainly West Lane is there but that's neither her nor there. Maybe a typo error.

Robert, please keep picking nits! it's often the obvious that can get overlooked.

[Verrico2009]

Hi Barbara - yes, that was me. I was hoping you'd also be a member here. I look forward to hearing from you. It seems that even if the assertion that he joined early cannot be corroborated, it's possible he was serving by 1916/17, so we can't entirely rule out that he may have been attached to the RND at some point.

Odd about West Street, Andrew. Will have another look at the original census return. But it also appears in the

newspaper article, of course. Delighted it's otherwise coming together.