Black Watch Battalion?

[dundeesown]

pic on the station at Dundee.

top pic (pipers)from celebration of 800 years,other two from Dundee at Work.

[ronmarsden]

Great pics of the 4th Battalion are there any more?

Here is a well known Daily Mail war picture entitled Highland Heroes of Martinpuich, but what Battalion?

Ron

[ronmarsden]

The funeral of piper McDonald,anyone have any information on this man?

Ron.

[FredJCarss]

Here is your man.

1539 Pte A. MACDONALD D.C.M.

Son of Robert and Mary MacDonald, of Cupar; husband of Annie MacDonald, of 3, Caroline St., Roxburgh St., Wellington, NZ

Died 16/04/1917

2nd Bn attached Depot

Born CUPAR

Enlisted NEW ZEALAND

Listed wounded on 11/10/1915. Published in The Scotsman newspaper on 21/10/1915

DCM Gazetted 30/03/1916

He also was awarded the Wauchope Medallion for the Battle of Loos.

Fred

[Black Jock]

The funeral of piper McDonald,anyone have any information on this man?

Ron.

Ron,

This is a article I wrote for my branch newsletter

It is well recorded the exploits of Piper Daniel Laidlaw KOSB the Piper of Loos who was awarded the Victoria Cross at that battle.

On the same morning, pipers of the 2nd Black Watch were at the head of their companies leading the charge.

So what better to read at fist hand of what happened from a piper who participated, namely Piper Alexander McDonald and his protagonists: Pipers David Smith Simpson and James Armitt.

McDonald reverted from Lance Corporal to Private so he could “get on” as a piper. This is his story:

“Simpson and I struck up “Happy we’ve been a thegither” just to show them we were not downhearted, and then the order to advance came, at last we charged out at the head of our company playing “Heilan Laddie” The Germans were assailing us with machine guns, rifle fire, and goodness knows all what, but we stuck to it and in a quarter of an hour we had their two first line trenches captured.

Just as we gained the 2nd line poor Simpson was shot down, but I kept playing as we dashed forward, and attacked the 3rd line we took this also, and the next, but at both we were hotly assailed with bombs and as the German reserves had come up by the time we got to the 5th we were held up there.

There were plenty of bombs going on both sides, and of course I had my share of throwing bombs as well as playing the pipes after the first three trenches were gained.

I came out of it all right, but a week later I was one of five to be detailed as a work party to erect wire entanglements in front of our lines, which had been taken down for our great advance, the German lines were a mere 50yds or so away, and they spotted us and a bomb landed in our midst, we were all badly wounded. Although I wrote home jocularly remarking that the Germans had given us a bomb to divide amongst us, I knew my fighting days were over, I managed to pull myself in, but the bone of my foot was all badly shattered, and after 17 days the doctors gave up the attempt to save my leg and amputated it above the knee”.

Piper McDonald aged 25 at the time was in India with the 2nd Battalion at the outbreak of war. He came unscathed through Neuve Chapelle, Festubert and Aubers. He treasured a German helmet which was a trophy of Neuve Chapelle and remarked “the owner is safe enough” His widowed mother has done more than her full share, his brother Thomas a corporal in the Canterbury Regiment NZEF fell at the Dardanelles and his name inscribed on the Twelve Tree Copse Memorial, Turkey, his brother Andrew with the 1st Black Watch was KIA on 12 November 1914 during the 1st Battle of Ypres in the area of Polygon Wood which was renamed on later maps as Black Watch Corner.

Before enlisting in December 1909 Alex McDonald was a ploughman at Balduthie nr.Pitenweem his father was a shepherd at Leuchars Castle and died at the end of 1914 at Easter Kinnear nr.Wormit. In 1916 his mother resided at Westhall near Cupar where Alexander’s two brothers were employed.

Piper David Simpson first came to my notice in the Peoples Journal , when Drum Major Simpson received his DCM and was referred to as the brother of the Piper of Loos I was under the impression that David was also had a DCM but he is not mentioned in Wauchope as a recipient. And at this time have only the above information.

Piper James Armitt also gallantly played his platoon into the ‘fray’, and like McDonald, assisted the bombing parties to drive the enemy counter attack back, James. Armitt I believe survived the war, If anyone has any more information on our Pipers of Loos please let me know.

What I didnt know at the time was on his discharge he worked I beleive as a blacksmith. Got married and died shortly afterwards from Tuberculosis.

Tom

[Tom A McCluskey]

Tom,

A good piece on Piper MacDonald,

Gary,

The picture of the 4th Black Watch isn't (as stated in the book) them going to war. This picture is a bit earlier. It may be the 4th going to Monzie, or to one of their war stations.

Aye

Tom McC

[dundeesown]

Thanks for that info on the pic Tom,another wee pic for you ( you have probably seen it before ) but may interest Ron or others.

It`s the Active Service Section of the 3rd Black Watch just before embarkation for the Boer War in 1900.

Gary.

[ronmarsden]

Thank you Fred,Tom,Tom Mc and Gary very informative.

Here is another Territorial Battalion from a Carnoustie photographer.

Ron.

[ARMAGH]

Thank you Fred,Tom,Tom Mc and Gary very informative.

Here is another Territorial Battalion from a Carnoustie photographer.

Ron.

Thanks all for your info and photos on the Black Watch, most enjoyable, does any one have any information on the Irish Coy of the 6th Bn Black Watch?

[ronmarsden]

Hi Armagh, here is a picture of a teapot that I copied from an auction site interesting item.

Ron.

[ARMAGH]

Hi Armagh, here is a picture of a teapot that I copied from an auction site interesting item.

Ron.

Hello Ron

Thats very interesting, do you have the Tea Pot?

From what I have found out from Balhousie Castle RHQ Black Watch, there was seven to eight hundred Irishmen, all volunteers served in the Irish Coy of the 6th Bn Black Watch.

Joe

[ronmarsden]

Hello Ron

Thats very interesting, do you have the Tea Pot?

From what I have found out from Balhousie Castle RHQ Black Watch, there was seven to eight hundred Irishmen, all volunteers served in the Irish Coy of the 6th Bn Black Watch.

Joe

No I do not have the teapot, I collect badges and medals only.

Here is the entertainment committee 1917.

[Tom A McCluskey]

Armagh,

I'm afraid to say that there was no way near that number of Irishmen in the 6th Bn The Black Watch T.F. There is a photo in the Castle of the Dublin section. It is in the early 1900s - I think possibly 1904 - and it shows about 20-something men. There was probably about the same of Ulstermen (possibly a few more). If you couple these two groups, it amounts to what Wauchope calls the Irish half-company. The battalions have eight companies (roughly of 100 men) at this time, so fifty men from Dublin and Ulster is about right. I believe they used to come across to the summer camp for their training with the battalion. There being, of course, no Territorial Force units in Ireland. I would have thought that the Dublin and Belfast papers would have covered these men going to war, and possibly going to summer camps.

Hope this helps

Aye

Tom McC

[ARMAGH]

Armagh,

I'm afraid to say that there was no way near that number of Irishmen in the 6th Bn The Black Watch T.F. There is a photo in the Castle of the Dublin section. It is in the early 1900s - I think possibly 1904 - and it shows about 20-something men. There was probably about the same of Ulstermen (possibly a few more). If you couple this together this amounts to what Wauchope calls the Irish half-company. The battalions have eight companies (roughly of 100 men) at this time, so fifty men from Dublin and Ulster is about right. I believe they used to come across to the summer camp for their training with the battalion. There being, of course, no Territorial Force units in Ireland. I would have thought that the Dublin and Belfast papers would have covered these men going to war, and possibly going to summer camps.

Hope this helps

Aye

Tom McC

Hello Tom

long time no see, Next time you are at the Castle ask Tom about the Irish Coy, the info I was given was an "Estimated 7 to 8oo Irishmen, served in the Irish Coy during the first War. Ronmarsden posted a reply to me, ref the Tea Pot with the inscription 6th Bn and "our" badge, what are your views on it?

There is press coverage of a Reunion in Belfast and Dublin of the Irish coy, 1965s I am trying to find out more.

Joe

[gnr.ktrha]

There was a descussion about the Irish Coy on the forum a couple of years ago. Someone posted some newspaper articles about them. If you do a search, they should still be on here.

Regards,

Stewart

[ARMAGH]

There was a descussion about the Irish Coy on the forum a couple of years ago. Someone posted some newspaper articles about them. If you do a search, they should still be on here.

Regards,

Stewart

Hello Ktrha

Thanks for the info on The Irish Coy, will look it up now.

Blairgowrie p&d had a mention in to-day,s Sunday Post, is Andy Scott still with you? is the salmon still coming up the river Erich?

Yours

Joe

[ARMAGH]

Hello Ktrha

Thanks for the info on The Irish Coy, will look it up now.

Blairgowrie p&d had a mention in to-day,s Sunday Post, is Andy Scott still with you? is the salmon still coming up the river Erich?

Yours

Joe

Irish Company 6 th Black Watch (R.H.R.)

It is estimated that about seven or eight hundred Irishmen, all volunteers, served in the Irish Company of the 6th Black Watch during the first war. Prior to the first war there were in Dublin three platoons and in Belfast one platoon. The origin of the Belfast platoon is not certain but, in the Dublin Civil Service, envious eyes were cast on a fellow Civil Servant, a Scottish Territorial in the Black Watch, who was allowed special leave to go to Scotland for is annual training.

Enquiries were made as to whether Irishmen would be acceptable in the Black Watch to enjoy this annual “camping picnic”. They were accepted as Scottish Territorials -there were no Irish Territorial in those days- and many enlisted. Bank and Insurance staffs followed suit to form Three full platoons.

When war broke out on the 4th August 1914, the Irish Company did not wait for their travel warrants on call up; each man paid his own fare to Scotland joining the battalion on the day following the declaration of war, Recruitment for the battalion be came a catch- my- pal affair. When members of the battalion returned to Ireland on leave they brought back with them relations and friends as recruits who, no doubt, were, to some extent, attracted by the full highland uniform worn for the first year or two of the war.

“A” Company became the Irish Company and was maintained by Irish recruits through out the war. Many prominent figures in Ulster's government and commerce today are ex-members of the 6th Black Watch. From this company too, many officers of the Royal Ulster Rifles and other Irish regiments obtained their commissions.

The 6th Black Watch became one of the battalions of the famous 51st Highland Division, so much dreaded by the German Army, and took part in the bloodiest battles of the first war. It is one of the only two battalions in the British Army awarded the Croix de Guerre by the French Government and every member of the battalion is accorded the right to wear the ribbon of the Croix de Guerre on his shoulder. The battalion had the unique honour of being mentioned in the French Orders of the day following the battle of La Boisselle when they fought side by side with the French 19th Regiment of Infantry.

Very many of the Irish Company fell in action but there are still over one hundred survivors in Ireland whose where abouts have been traced and on the 5th March 196? most of them will meet in their fourth Reunion since the first war.

This information came from Balhousie Castle.

Feb 2008

[Tom A McCluskey]

Joe,

Thanks for posting the information. I have been here before with this subject and I don't want it to take over Ron's thread as I feel like I am swimming round the same buoy again . However, statistics and records are at odds with what this report is stating. This report is vague about A Company (albeit it does insinuate that A Coy is exclusively Irish!), when in fact A & B Company (when it was an 8 Coy Battalion) were Perth Coys. I can appreciate that the Irish detachments were probably put into A Company, however, A Company did not stay as 'A' for the whole war.

In January 1915, in line with the four company battalion, A & F Coys become No 4 Coy (numbered - instead of alphabetic, the same as the 2nd Battalion).

Wauchope has the Bn as A to D Coy in January 1916, but the Bn Diary still has the Companies numbered (1 to 4) up to mid-1916. This would make No 4 Coy (old A & F): D Company. Which would be about right, as the battle of High Wood (the Battalion's first major action), has 5 Irishmen killed, these are mainly from the North. Remember, D Coy was a lead-attacking company in this battle:

Boyd, James - - L/Cpl - - 2953 - - 30/07/1916 - - KIA - - Thiepval Memorial, Pier and Face 10 A. - Born Belfast Ireland

King, Wm Alexander - -Pte - -2905 - -30/07/1916 - - KIA - -Caterpillar Valley, Longueval. XIII.J. A. - Born Whitecross, Co Armagh. Aged 25, son of Mary J King of Lurgana House, Whitecross, Co Armagh, and the late John King.

Lily, Herbert Ewart - - Pte - -2688 - - 30/07/1916 - - KIA - - Thiepval Memorial, Pier and Face 10 A. - Born Belfast Ireland. Aged 18, brother of Ethel Lily of 63 Foyle Street, Belfast.

Ogle, William Robert - - L/Cpl - - 2105 - - 30/07/1916 - - KIA - - Thiepval Memorial, Pier and Face 10 A. - Born Belfast

Rogan, Herbert John - - Pte - - 2609 - - 30/07/1916 - - KIA - - Thiepval Memorial, Pier and Face 10 A. - Born Belfast. Aged 23, son of John & Catherine Rogan, 4 Victoria Tce, Cregagh, Belfast. Husband of Catherine Rogan, nee McCord, of Willow House, Trummery, Co Down.

The 6th Black Watch have 101 men killed at this battle (including 6 Died of Wounds).

This is the the largest loss of Irishmen in a 6th Black Watch battle. They don't fall in these numbers again. Incidentally, more Yorkshiremen fell at this battle, serving with the 6th Black Watch than Irish (and in subsequent battles). That said, as you would expect, the vast majority of the men are from Perthshire and the Regimental recruiting area.

At Beaumont Hamel, where A Company (old G & H Coys - 'G' being Dunkeld/Pitlochry, and 'H' being Aberfeldy) are heavily involved, one Irishman is killed:

Todd, Arnold Wilkinson - - Pte - - 2653 - - 13/11/1916 - - KIA - - Mailly Wood Cem. Mailly-Maillet. I.F. 8. - Born Coleraine, Co Derry. Aged 21, son of Mr & Mrs Hamilton Todd, of Park House, Coleraine.

Please do not take this as trying to diminish the fact that Irishmen served in the 6th Black Watch, what I am trying to show that it was not in the numbers reported in the article. A Company would be about 200 men (20% of a Battalion). For it to be engaged in battle, and to be manned with a great number of Irishmen, it would suffer a great deal more Irish casualties. It is a quite haphazard piece, and the research is a bit vague and it would be nice to see if it is from a first, second, or third party source.

Aye

Tom McC

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello Armagh,

There is still a few Salmon in the River and lots of folk trying to catch them. Do you know Andy? He now plays with a different band, as he was invited to leave the Blair band a couple of years ago, after 30 odd years service! I heard the power was going to his head. Just the usual politics . We still have an ex Black Watch Piper as P/M.

Regards,

Stewart

[ronmarsden]

Take a look at this photo, odd sporran could this be Highland Cyclist Battalion?

Does anyone have photos of HCB?

Ron.

[1st east yorks]

Ron,

I have been following this thread with interest.I have learnt some interesting things regarding the attire of Scottish regiments.The photographs that have been posted are fantastic.Sorry to have to ask,but whats the purpose of a Sporran?

thanks,

Anthony.

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello,

I think it probably is Highland Cyclist Battalion man. I have seen a number of Sporran badges for sale to this unit over the years. I think it is the first time I have seen it attached to a Sporran. I wonder if they had to orders of dress ie, Trousers for on cycles, and kilts. I have seen a few photo's of them with their Bikes and in them they were wearing breeks. So I wonder how many of them had kilts and sporrans?

The Sporran is the same pattern as worn by the Perthshire Highland rifle Volunteers, and later the 5th Perthshire Volunteer Battalion [pre 1908].

Great photo's,

Stewart

[Tom A McCluskey]

Ron,

Reference the HCB. Loubylou, at one of the Tay Valley meetings, brought with her a picture of a lad from the Highland Cyclists. Interestingly enough, he was wearing a pair of SD trousers and Highland (khaki) Spats.

Aye

Tom McC

[Black Jock]

Irish Company 6 th Black Watch (R.H.R.)

It is estimated that about seven or eight hundred Irishmen, all volunteers, served in the Irish Company of the 6th Black Watch during the first war. Prior to the first war there were in Dublin three platoons and in Belfast one platoon. The origin of the Belfast platoon is not certain but, in the Dublin Civil Service, envious eyes were cast on a fellow Civil Servant, a Scottish Territorial in the Black Watch, who was allowed special leave to go to Scotland for is annual training.

Enquiries were made as to whether Irishmen would be acceptable in the Black Watch to enjoy this annual “camping picnic”. They were accepted as Scottish Territorials -there were no Irish Territorial in those days- and many enlisted. Bank and Insurance staffs followed suit to form Three full platoons.

When war broke out on the 4th August 1914, the Irish Company did not wait for their travel warrants on call up; each man paid his own fare to Scotland joining the battalion on the day following the declaration of war, Recruitment for the battalion be came a catch- my- pal affair. When members of the battalion returned to Ireland on leave they brought back with them relations and friends as recruits who, no doubt, were, to some extent, attracted by the full highland uniform worn for the first year or two of the war.

“A” Company became the Irish Company and was maintained by Irish recruits through out the war. Many prominent figures in Ulster's government and commerce today are ex-members of the 6th Black Watch. From this company too, many officers of the Royal Ulster Rifles and other Irish regiments obtained their commissions.

The 6th Black Watch became one of the battalions of the famous 51st Highland Division, so much dreaded by the German Army, and took part in the bloodiest battles of the first war. It is one of the only two battalions in the British Army awarded the Croix de Guerre by the French Government and every member of the battalion is accorded the right to wear the ribbon of the Croix de Guerre on his shoulder. The battalion had the unique honour of being mentioned in the French Orders of the day following the battle of La Boisselle when they fought side by side with the French 19th Regiment of Infantry.

Very many of the Irish Company fell in action but there are still over one hundred survivors in Ireland whose where abouts have been traced and on the 5th March 196? most of them will meet in their fourth Reunion since the first war.

This information came from Balhousie Castle.

Joe,

I thought about this sometime ago, I've not seen Balhousies take on it until now. The 6th Bns fatalities including officers was about 1000, to date I have found only 38 of these casualties with an Irish connection. As the article claims Ireland furnished the men for A coy. All things being equal I would expect the the Irish company to have a 'butchers bill' of ~ 200 in a 4 Rifle Compay Battalion. I dont think this item should be used as a primary source. The award of the Croix de Guerre was made to more than two battalions, 1/4 KSLI and 2nd Devons and the Leeds Rifles to name some.

Tom

[ronmarsden]

Here is my HCB sporran badge alongside an other ranks glengarry for size comparison. This itself is an unusual example

having a voided crown.

Ron