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ronmarsden

Black Watch Battalion?

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ronmarsden

Black Watch Battalion,but which one?and what date?

Unusual to see the hackle worn with the badge on the Tam o Shanter.

Ron.

post-12169-1208968115.jpg

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sotonmate

Ron

Looking for small clues ! The soldier on the far right of the second row from the back,is that 3 stripes on his sleeve or a flaw in the picture ? They might mean the passage of time ion some way,which might discount 2 or 3 years of the War and make the pic 1916-17 or so.

Sotonmate

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mctaz

Terrific Photo, difficult to tell from the image at this resolution but a couple of the men seem to have wound stripes?

Don't know if the piper you refer to Sotonmate is actually showing active service stripes as they'd be on the wrong arm?

In any case a fine body of men

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wheelsjbl

I have done a quick clean up of the pic and have also tried to see what the 3 "stripes" might be. The photo resolution isn't good enough to see properly when enlarged, however there ARE 3 horizontal "stripes" on the arm. I am dubious about them being service stripes however for a couple of reasons...1 The stripes are perfectly horizontal even though the soldier's arm is bent and the sleeve is wrinkled because of that. 2. The bottom "stripe" appears longer than the other two. I am inclined to think they may be a photographic "artifact" rather than anything actually on the uniform but would need a better resolution or enlargement to be sure.

Brian

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Black Jock

Its a fine photo. It could be late. All the men are in "Tam 'O' Shanters" Ecept the officer in the middle he is wearing a Balmoral. It is not unusual for Black Watch men to wear the badge and the Hackle at that time . The senior rank has a decoration as well as the young officer on the right. It looks like it coud be an "Originals Photo" As there are no young faces.

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Tom A McCluskey

Tam,

I have been on-and-off trying to identify it from the three officers. Like you, I also spotted the fact that the men all look a bit older. As we look at the photo, front row, 2nd man in from the left: it looks like he is possibly wearing a wound stripe (left forearm).

If I was to hazard a guess, it is possibly a TF battalion, as the preponderance of the photos that I've seen of the badge and hackle tend to be TF men. This would narrow it down to three battalions: 4/5th, 6th, & 7th.

I've got a feeling I should recognise the left-hand officer with the lighter Balmoral and the central officer with the large TOS & MC.

I'll try and have a good look later.

Aye

Tom McC

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Tom A McCluskey

Hi All,

Just some interesting points to note about the photo:

Soldier:-

1. I think this soldier is from the Transport Section as he is wearing riding breeches and a lanyard on his right shoulder

2. This is the soldier that I think has a wound stripe on his left forearm

3. This is the officer with the MC, Line Officer breeches? (sometimes worn)

4. This soldier looks like he is wearing a sporran (unusual) and 1914 pattern leather webbing.

5. Note the Webley pistol on the left webbing strap (his left) - this was normal for pipers.

6. This soldier is not wearing a cap badge, and his webbing has no ammo pouches.

7. This soldier is wearing 1914 pattern leather equipment

8. This old Sergeant looks like he has a South Africa Medal.

It was quite normal for Black Watch soldiers to be put into other battalions within the Regiment - for a variety of reasons. I can say though, that through careful amalgamations, use of the local yeomanry (F&FY & SH), and disbandments, the Black Watch did not need to take large drafts of Englishmen to make up its numbers (it has been stated on this forum that this was a widely accepted practice). In the case of The Black Watch, I can say that this is not so, and it remained more than 85% Scottish throughout the war.

Hope this is of interest

Aye

Tom McC

post-10175-1209136006.jpg

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ronmarsden

Thank you all for those detailed observations,I wonder if I can try another one.

This time only hackles are on show,I notice that one officer is wearing collar dogs,is it true that officers

of the regular battalions did not wear them. Is that a Scottish wall in the background?

Ron.

post-12169-1209141456.jpg

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geraint
. It looks like it coud be an "Originals Photo" As there are no young faces.

By that do you mean 1914? The Lewis guns make it a later date (mid 1915 onwards)?

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Tom A McCluskey

Ron,

Reference the first picture, some of the faces are familiar to me. I have thought over this this on and off and I reckon it is the 4/5th Black Watch. The officer on the right looks like Lt Stewart 4/5th Black Watch.

The second photo looks like regulars. Short shoulder title and the hackle looks like the one out of the foreign service helmet. I reckon this one is possibly the 2nd Black Watch in Scotland 1919.

Hope this is of use, and I reserve the right to change my mind to suit the real answer if necessary :D

Aye

Tom McC

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ronmarsden
Ron/Tom

I think it could be the 4/5th sometime after May 1916. This is a photo of Stewart sometime before the end of October 1917, there is a remarkable resemblence between him and the man to the right of #3. I'm afraid the photo is poor, perhaps some young eyes can confirm this.

Tom

Thank you all for your replies,I have another for your expert opinions.

This time a mixture of old and young with a variety of uniforms. Is that a church window behind? My guess is a second line

territorial btn.

Ron.

post-12169-1209318437.jpg

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geraint

Ha!

That scruffy looking billy is not as majestic as a Welsh Fusilier Goat! No guilded horns I see! :lol:

G

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Tom A McCluskey

Ron,

Ref my last :huh: : I still reckon it is Lt A J Stewart. He was the Lewis gun officer with the 4/5th Black Watch (originally 4th and wounded on 25th Sep 1915). 4/5th Officers did not wear a badge with the hackle. Stewart got back out to France in Feb 1916, so I am wondering, as would be plausible that this is a Lewis-gun course. He may be on the course, or an instructor for the HD. He was promoted to Captain in 1917.

Aye

Tom McC

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Black Jock
Thank you all for your replies,I have another for your expert opinions.

This time a mixture of old and young with a variety of uniforms. Is that a church window behind? My guess is a second line

territorial btn.

Ron.

Ron,

You obviously replied as I was deleteing my post. I hve posted the wrong man, So ignore my comments. Though the photo is sometime after 2nd May 1916.

Tom

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Black Jock
Ron,

Ref my last :huh: : I still reckon it is Lt A J Stewart. He was the Lewis gun officer with the 4/5th Black Watch (originally 4th and wounded on 25th Sep 1915). 4/5th Officers did not wear a badge with the hackle. Stewart got back out to France in Feb 1916, so I am wondering, as would be plausible that this is a Lewis-gun course. He may be on the course, or an instructor for the HD. He was promoted to Captain in 1917.

Aye

Tom McC

Tom,

Yes Stewart is the man. In spite of my senior moment offering up the wrong image. :rolleyes: The Lewis Gun course, is the best answer and that would account for the lack of young faces in the group as the choice for a gunner would be experienced soldiers.

Ron,

Where do the photos come from, and are there any names?

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ronmarsden

Tom,

They are all postcards from my collection,none of the above have any names written on the back.

Ron.

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Black Jock
Tom,

They are all postcards from my collection,none of the above have any names written on the back.

Ron.

Ron,

They are great, keep posting them to our delight!

Tom

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ronmarsden
Ron,

They are great, keep posting them to our delight!

Tom

Here is another one,still unsure of which battalion.

Ron.

post-12169-1209486291.jpg

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ronmarsden

Another one from 1917.

Ron.

post-12169-1209933147.jpg

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1st east yorks

Fantastic photos,when i see pictures of Scottish Regiments i cant help but think how smart they always look.To broaden my knowledge of Scottish uniforms can someone please explain what a hackle is?What is the difference between a Tam O Shanter ,a Glengarry and a Balmoral ? I know they are all caps but do different regiments wear different types of caps?

Thanks in advance,

Anthony.

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Roxy

Anthony,

The men in post 11 are wearing the glengarry; not sure of the difference between a Tam o' Shanter and a Balmoral - I'm sure someone will point it out.

Roxy

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Tom A McCluskey

Anthony,

The Balmoral is a small snug fitting bonnet, slightly larger than a beret with a tourie (a small pom-pom) on the top. They tend to keep the formed shape. They had long tails at the back (like a Glengarry bonnet) which were initially worn down.

The first issued Balmorals were dark blue, and in the case of The Black Watch these had a red tourie.

In the early days of trench warfare, any old balaclavas etc. were worn as the first bonnets (usually a Glengarry offered little in the way of camouflage (shape and colour). The first solution of the Army was to issue SD caps. As the Jocks would not wear the Service Dress cap (in those days there was no shame in the management backing away from bad ideas), a blue Balmoral was issued instead with a khaki cover. The next lot of Balmorals were made in khaki.

The Tam O'Shanter is a similar style bonnet to the Balmoral. However, it has a wider brim and the material is slightly different. It is a loose and large, almost shapeless bonnet. Another feature of it is that the tourie is large. You'll first see these in photos in 1915, but not generally worn till about 1916, with some units even later (see below the Pipe Band of the 2nd Bn Seaforth Highlanders, wearing the khaki Blamoral in 1918).

Hope this helps

Aye

Tom McC

PS - Ron, Excellent pictures, and many thanks for posting. I am still in the process of moving house, (removals tomorrow), so I haven't had a chance to have a close look at them.

Aye

Tom McC

post-10175-1209976420.jpg

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ronmarsden

Last one in the 1917 series,unusual title?

Ron.

post-12169-1209978236.jpg

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1st east yorks

Roxy & Tom,

Thanks for your replies.

Tom,

Did different regiments wear different types of cap?Highland & Lowland regiments for example? and Whats a Hackle?

Thanks,

Anthony.

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ronmarsden

Here is another one sorry about the quality.

Ron.

post-12169-1210536458.jpg

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