a soldier who used to have a grave

[Stebie9173]

Had anyone checked his file at the NA yet?

I believe it is this one:

WO 374/26389 GARDINER, Capt F W 1914-1923

The dates are dates re corresepondence not his service.

One of the recent officer files I looked up had correspondence about the moving of an officers grave. It is possible that the same type of correspondence is filed in Gardiner's file?

Steve.

EDIT:

Great minds, John.

Scary, in fact....

[Andrew Hesketh]

John / Steve,

Good thoughts. This hasn't been suggested even though, now you've both mentioned it, it seems an obvious thing to do.

All we need is someone near the NA with a bit of time on their hands.....

[Auimfo]

Such a simple suggestion and no one's thought of it till now! Trust these blow-ins to come up with the idea

I suppose it might be worth checking out Cobbold, Torrome and H. Jones as well. You never know your luck.

Anyone we know going to be near the NA anytime soon? Unless of course someone wants to pay my airfare and I'll do it.

Interesting that Gardiner's file has correspondence up to 1923 - I wonder what that may be?

Tim L.

[Stebie9173]

Could be a War Memorial enquiry. One of my recent ones even had an Australian War Memorial enquiry. (Though what the chap had to do with Oz, I don't know.). Settlement of amounts due? Probate settlement?

Or is it informing the NOK about the moving of his grave? Just maybe...

If you're going to be checking OR service records I would suggest Torrome or Cobbold rather than Jones...

Steve.

[Alan_J]

If you're going to be checking OR service records I would suggest Torrome or Cobbold rather than Jones...

I'm not volunteering for that one, although if we don't get any offers before I would do the other lookups on my next visit (but that won't be for several weeks).

Alan

[Stebie9173]

Wait!

I have messed up with the initials of Captain Gardiner...

Got his father's initial 'W' mixed in. The one I suggested above will not be him...

This leaves the possibles:

WO 339/42206 GARDINER F T, Lieut 1914-1917 1937

WO 339/24730 GARDINER F, Capt 1914-1919; 1945

Sorry, everyone...

Steve.

[Auimfo]

I posted the letters many post ago

Did you? This thread taken so many twists and turns I think I've forgotten which way is up!!

Tim L.

[Stebie9173]

Back to tle plot(s):

As requested by Andrew, the location of the 12 HLI on 31-7-1917:

Steve.

[Andrew Hesketh]

Steve,

You seem to have access to everything! Brilliant. Unless my eyes deceive me 12th HLI is right next to where Gardiner was buried.

[Aurel Sercu]

(To those who really want to see the mystery solved : skip this posting, for it doesn't add anything worthwhile.)

Andrew,

The Magpie Mysterie was half-solved a few days ago. I spoke to a man living near Potyze Chateau Grounds Cemetery, and mentioned the almost Fatal Attack of the Killer Magpie.

Well, a bit embarrassing for me... For the Killer Magpie appears to have been a Tame Magpie of one of the other houses near the cemetery. But I could also say : that day I was very lucky, couldn't I ? Suppose it had been a Wild Magpie !

Anyway, the photo below proves that I risked serious bodily harm. Taken 1/4 of a second before the brute gave me a vicious peck. (And should any pal consider avoiding all physical contact with me from now on : that was BEFORE the avian flu !)

***

Anyway, I put on my Sherlock Holmes cap again for a while (I do NOT look like Mr Poirot at all, John !), and directed my attention to Poelkapelle British Cemetery. My attention ! Not my bike ! Poelkapelle is only 6 miles east of Boezinge, but right now there is a very powerful westwind, and I always prefer being back home before midnight. (Successfully, ask my wife.)

Serious now. I just wanted to know about the graves in the row (and the row behind) of R.L. Torrome, Scots Guards, 19/4/16, LIV.A.5, the man who after having been re-located to Potijze, was re-re-located to Poelkapelle.

Because I think that if Row A* (Gardiner's row) at Potijze CGC was removed, and if Torrome was re(re)located at Poelkapelle, then the others in the same row A* may (may !) have been relocated to Poelkapelle too. Also because I wanted to check if maybe men of the same unit were reburied together again (as someone in a previous posting suggested).

But I knew before I started wading through the 1251 names in the CWGC register on line that probably I would find nothing from which I could draw conclusions from. And this was true : no conclusions possible, at least none that I can see. 6321 out of the 7478 burials at Poelkapelle (= 85%) are unidentified, and this also goes for Rows A and B in Plot LIV. (I didn't check the other rows, because one has to stop somewhere.)

A.1 C. Carpenter, Rifle Brigade, 13/5/15

A.2 Unknown

A.3 Frederick Bunce, Rifle Brigade, 13/5/15

A.4 J.A.L. Stewart, Rifle Brigade, 13/5/15

A.5. R.L. TORROME, Scots Guards, 19/4/16

A.6 Unknown

A.7 W. Bold, Scots Guards, 19/4/16

A.8 Unknown

A.9 Unknown

A.10 Unknown

A.11 Unknown

A.12 Unknown

A.13 Unknown

A.14 S. Cox, Cameron Highlanders, 28/7/17

A.16 Unknown

A.17 Unknown

A.18 A. Couper, Royal Dragoons, 20/10/14

A.19 J. Stewart, Royal Dragoons, 23/10/14

A.20 W. Phillips, Yorkshire Regiment, 22/10/14

B.1 Unknown

B.2 Unknown

B.3 Unknown

B.4 Unknown

B.5 Unknown

B.6 Unknown

B.7 T. Cooper, MGC, 10/8/17

B.8 Unknown

B.9 Unknown

B.10 Unknown

B.11 Unknown

B.12 Unknown

B.13 Unknown

B.14 Unknown

B.15 Unknown

B.16 J.F. Clemo, London Reg., 13/10/17

B.17 W. Kenny, London Reg., 30/10/17

B.18 Unknown

B.19 Unknown

B.20 Unknown

Some of the unknown may (may !) have been men relocated from Potijze CGC, but of course we will never know. (And : yes : they seem to be grouped by unit and date, but maybe they had been in the cemetery where they were buried first ?)

I had not expected to find anything relevant, and if you ask : why taking the trouble to try, and why taking the trouble to post all this... Well, maybe, who knows, someone else... I think we just have to do this. It's all pieces of a jigsaw puzzle, and maybe in a later stage something may be useful after all. But if we don't present the solitary pieces to all Potyze Club members, these pieces will never show their use.

***

Just like this (totally unrelated) detail. COBBOLD's name is still clearly readable on Sabine postcard, in 1919. However, on Alan's postcard, general view, taken some time (a year, 2 years ?) later, the second arm of the cross appears to be broken off as well. (I have already mentioned this in an earlier posting.) With both arms broken off the name "Cobbold" was no longer readable (certainly not in full). Was this the reason that his name ended up on the Menin Gate Memorial, and not on a headstone ?

I must say that immediately after this the thought rose : impossible, for sure these names that were on the crosses, must have been recorded somewhere on paper as well, so that if they fell off or became unreadable, then the name was not forgotten. (Am I making a mistake here ?)

Anyway, this does not apply to Gardiner, for on Alan's photo the cross, though damaged to the same (?) extent as on Sabine's photo, is still clearly visible. (Question : for how long did it remain there ? Maybe soon after the general view photo was taken it was ... gone ? So that Gardiner too ended up on the Menin Gate ?)

Anyway, here is the Tame Brute.

Aurel

[Stebie9173]

No they don't deceive you. I can't speak for the CWGC but if I was burying a man of the 12th HLI killed in their positions at that point it would be in Potizje...

As for their involvement, the 12th HLI were in Reserve so the Divisional History doesn't mention them much. At 10.20am they were moved up to the "old Divisional front line in support" and then at 2pm there was a counter attack on the "division to the left of the 6th Camerons" who were ahead of the 12th HLI at that point it seems. At around 4pm the 10/11th HLI were moved up to Iberian Farm to strengthen the left flank, with 10th Scottish Rifles in support and 12th HLI in Reserve.

No other mention is made regarding the 12th HLI. The history doesn't mention any German artillery fire, but there was no doubt some...

It's not clear but the positions shown appear to be the battalions starting points for the attack (i.e. around 4am) so they seem to have been in that position for around 6 hours on the morning of the 31st. The old front line is just off the right of the map, by the way.

Steve.

[Aurel Sercu]

Steve,

Brilliant indeed. And I'm sure pals who have been near the Potijze will recognze the exact spot ! Hussar Farm (where Halfmoon Trench (on Steve's map) and Dragoon Alley and Hussar Lane meet on a later trench map (mine is 13/7/18)

For the construction Captain Gardiner and his men must have seen (photo below) is still there !

Distance 12/HLI position - Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery = 500 meters.

Whether Gardiner was buried there right after his death ? If Plot II contains only men from other burial sites, not. But if Gardiner was buried first somewhere else, it certainly was close by.

Aurel

(Sorry, Sabine, I didn't know you had birdophobia...

[Stebie9173]

The full map in glorious wide-o-vision:

I'll remove it if it causes too much distortion to the Topic.

Steve.

[Andrew Hesketh]

I think we've moved on a little again.

1. I think that if Row A* (Gardiner's row) at Potijze CGC was removed, and if Torrome was re(re)located at Poelkapelle, then the others in the same row A* may (may !) have been relocated to Poelkapelle too.

2. ...no conclusions possible, at least none that I can see. ... I think we just have to do this. It's all pieces of a jigsaw puzzle, and maybe in a later stage something may be useful after all. But if we don't present the solitary pieces to all Potyze Club members, these pieces will never show their use.

3. COBBOLD's name is still clearly readable on Sabine postcard, in 1919. However, on Alan's postcard, general view, taken some time (a year, 2 years ?) later, the second arm of the cross appears to be broken off as well...With both arms broken off the name "Cobbold" was no longer readable (certainly not in full). Was this the reason that his name ended up on the Menin Gate Memorial, and not on a headstone ?

1. That's a good thought.

2. Very good work Aurel. As you say it may be a small detail that eventually settles this.

3. Another interesting thought.

4. No they don't deceive you. I can't speak for the CWGC but if I was burying a man of the 12th HLI killed in their positions at that point it would be in Potizje...

5. No other mention is made regarding the 12th HLI. The history doesn't mention any German artillery fire, but there was no doubt some...

4. I agree.

5. The regimental museum are sending me the war diary extract by snail mail. Unfortunately, they say, the appendix detailing the action is lost. I wonder if there is still a trace of the appendix at the NA?

6. Whether Gardiner was buried there right after his death ? If Plot II contains only men from other burial sites, not. But if Gardiner was buried first somewhere else, it certainly was close by.

6. The logical conclusion is that he was buried where he fell, "He was killed....by heavy shell fire whilst in a trench with his company. His death was almost immediate. His company was badly scattered by the shelling, and later moved forward, so I have not yet any details of his burial.", and then moved the short distance to the cemetery at a later stage. And then....?

[Alan_J]

Good to read these updates! So the 2/Scots Guards War Diary and the data so far on 12/HLI shows they were both (although on seperate dates) in the area near Potijze when Torrome, Cobbold and Gardiner were killed.

Good point about the potential deterioration of Cobbold's cross as well.

In terms of timing, the last card in the booklet of postcards mine came from shows Blauewpoort Farm Cemetery still with original wooden grave markers, but with the Cross of Sacrifice in place. The original wire fence still remains however. So it is possible the photos in this booklet were taken just before the time that CWGC started the job of making these cemeteries permanent. As I've said earlier, I know that Perth (China Wall) was being made permanent in 1925.

I think the argument that perhaps the names became unclear on some graves in row A*, and that they were all transferred to Poelcapelle (with Cobbold and Gardiner now unknown) is a good one. Reason as suggested but not known for sure.

However, Terry D. has said: CWGC did not move graves.

A bit of a catch-22!

Any luck in offers by anyone to look up Gardiner's file at the NA?

Alan

[Andrew Hesketh]

Any luck in offers by anyone to look up Gardiner's file at the NA?

Nein.

[Roxy]

What a fantastic thread!

Just a thought, and I appreciate that Torrome's reinterment may blow my boat out the water before I even start, but what if the 'missing' row is in fact still there and that for reasons already mentioned - space etc - or an army mistake prior to handing the cemetry to IWGC the details were lost. Subsequently, the men in the 'missing row' were then commemorated elsewhere, either on the special memorials or at Menin.

Unfortunately, I can't explain Torrome. Do we know when his remains were moved?

Apologies if this has been mentioned before, I've only just come across this thread - utterly absorbing!

Roxy

[Andrew Hesketh]

Roxy, welcome aboard.

Your thought is one that I have entertained (and still do to an extent), except for the Torrome problem. We are awaiting the CWGC via Terry Denham to come up, hopefully, with the answer to that question.

With any luck Sabine's new scan, which is due very soon, should allow us to name some more men in the 'missing row'.

[Roxy]

I realise that Torrome does not fit in well with my hypothesis, but at least I am not mental! Or not alone anyway!

Can't wait for Sabine's top quality scan - tommorow?

Roxy

[Auimfo]

Hi Roxy,

Welcome to the 'Agatha Christie' thread.

I too, have similar thoughts that perhaps these men are still buried where they lay in Potijze. Torrome is an obvious exception to that theory but perhaps there was a mis-identification of sorts somewhere along the line. I know that after the war everything was done to make the right ID but there was always going to be honest mistakes that will continue to come to light as time goes on. Maybe it's one of these.

Tim L.

[ian turner]

As I find this matter like a sore tooth, which keeps needing to be explored, I cannot await further input and simply must bore you all with my latest hair-brained theory.

This one arisies from the observation of the grave plots of our 'missing row' between the two old, early 1920's views.

What we assume to be the older view shows all the plots in Plot II covered in apparent vegetation, which is not so much the case in the 1918-1919 view. Indeed, when then looking closer at the 1918-19 view, it can be seen that all the plots are raised, excepting 'our row'. And 'our row' looks to be just flat ground, different from all the rest.

This leads to my latest idea: what if our missing row's markers, including Gardiner, Torrome and Cobbold were all markers recovered from original sites, but where the actual graves had been lost? The markers had been placed in Potizje Grounds cemy pending a permanent memorial to the missing. But maybe Torrome's remains were later discovered where originaly buried, identified and placed in Poelcapelle.

Our 'row' was not a row of actual graves, our missing from this row remain missing (with lost original graves), Torrome was interred in another cemetery and IWGC did not 'forget' our row.

Yes, another 180 degree turn in guesswork, and still subject to Sabine's improved scan. But if the other names show as 'missing', or even a mixture of missing and buried elsewhere, then it might support my guesswork.

Sorry, can't help chewing over this one!

Ian

[Aurel Sercu]

First of all : welcome, Roxy. We need all the new (young ?) blood we can get. With or without an extra dose of testosteron !

And yes, Torrome remains a serious problem.

Something else. This morning Jacky and I had a face to face, i.e. 'physical', discussion. (Yes, I know, all pals envy us for our Wednesday morning Ypres Documentation Centre physical contact ... )

And our contact confirms what I said a few postings ago : even if we think something is nothing but a futile detail, not worth mentioning, I think it should be mentioned, for someone else might have the same thought too.

This is what Jacky and I had noticed, independently from each other. (And maybe I have already mentioned it some days ago, don't remember.)

I wish I could cut out part of Sabine's photo to show what I mean, but somehow my PC refuses to obey me in that simple command. ("Error !") Anyway, you will have to do with a reproduction of Sabine's photo below.

It's about the 3 crosses in the middle of the photo, in the middle, right of Gardiner - Torrome - Cobbold..

A* 18, A* 19 and A* 20. On 2 of them (A* 19 and A* 20) an inscription is made. (I think on A* 18 too, but I'm not sure.) It looks like a rectangle, in one piece, absolutely impossible to see lettering though. (Will Sabine's high resolution scan help ?)

Then look at the row behind this first row A*, that is : the present row A, the 4 standard crosses behind (from the point of view of the photographer) Torrome and Cobbold . These are :

- A 17 Two soldiers of the Great War

- A 18 B. Moran, Royal Dublin Fusiliers, 1/8/17

- A 19 A Soldier of the Great War

- A 20 G. Hall, Royal Irish Rifles, 16/8/17

I'm not asking of course if you agree that this is what is on the metal (?) strips of these 4 crosses, but there is a difference between what is applied to these 4 crosses, 2 separate strips, and what can be seen on A* 19 and A* 20.

Question : is this difference relevant, significant ? Probably not, but who knows.

And another thing : Jacky suggested that crosses A* 18, A* 19, A* 20 are not really standard croses. Maybe different sort of wood ? I don't know...

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

1. What we assume to be the older view shows all the plots in Plot II covered in apparent vegetation, which is not so much the case in the 1918-1919 view.

2. Indeed, when then looking closer at the 1918-19 view, it can be seen that all the plots are raised, excepting 'our row'. And 'our row' looks to be just flat ground, different from all the rest.

Ian,

I hope I did not misunderstand... Just this : we agree that Sabine's photo (with Gardiner and Torrome and Cobbold etc. are in the foreground) is the older view, taken in 1919, and that the general view, IIRC posted by Alan, is some time (months ? a year ?) later ? Correct ?

If so (and I don't doubt that), what about the fact that in Alan's photo, the somewhat later photo, "our row" appears to have been raised too ?

Aurel

[ian turner]

In the 'newer' old view the vegetation has taken hold, and the 'missing row' plot has been left as a plot. But it was deliberatley not maintained any further when creating the permanent cemetery layout by the IWGC.

OK - I know it isn't water-tight...

Ian

[Aurel Sercu]

Ian,

I am trying to understand, really, but somehow Jacky this morning has exhausted all my mental capacities.

Aurel