a soldier who used to have a grave

[24225978]

No they did not. This is a common misconception.

CWGC moved no graves during the concentration process. This concentration was carried out by the army - although consulations between the two organisations obviously took place about number and location of sites etc.

OK, consider my wrists well and truly slapped! (Many of the Registers relate how graves were 'gathered in' after the Armistice but don't make the distinction about who did the 'gathering').

My point remains the same though: Was this marker actually a grave marker? Or was it a memorial raised by a family member and removed when the cemetery was finally laid out (by the Army) and before being handed over to the CWGC?

It's obvious that some families did go sometimes to great lengths to place their own markers (some still exist).

Wouldn't it be understandable for bereaved families who have missing members to want to record and demonstrate their loss before the official memorials were erected, placing their own marker somewhere?

Mike.

[Neil Mackenzie]

2. Actually I had a similar thought yesterday. I wanted to find out where the Scots Guards fallen on 19 April 1916 have their graves, if they have one.

I found that 15 Scots Guards fell on that day.

- 13 of them are on the Menin Gate,

- 1 has a grave in White House Cemetery,

- 1 in Poperinge New Mil. Cem.

- and 1 Torrome is in Poelkapelle.

A somewhat disappointing result. But it allows me to answer your question. Torrome having battalion mates buried at Poelkapelle cannot possibly have been a reason to relocate him to that cemetery, since there weren't any.

Aurel

Aurel.

There is also Sgt W Bold, Scots Guards died 19/4/16 in Polecapelle in LIV A7!

It was this entry that got me thinking about why Torrome was apparently moved there but I was too lazy to wade through the rest of the records for the cemetery to see whether or not this was a one off. However, I realise that this is no proof at all and your information on the rest of the men means no connection like this can be made.

Neil

[Alan_J]

Having been away for a while (two days in a hot and sticky London!) I've just been catching up on the posts (a lot of them!) since I last was able to look at this thread.

Although Aurel has discovered there are more double burials in the cemetery, I still think his initial idea that some of these graves may have been "moved" here (in effect doubled up with those already existing) may be right.

Secondly, Torrome is the oddity here - why move an already relocated (Plot 2) grave somewhere else again? As Terry has siad, CWGC did not move bodies already buried in the majority of cases.

So could Torrome (and there is only one Torrome on CWGC) at Poelcapelle be an administrative error?

It still doesn't explain the others though - even if Gardiner's cross was a memorial not a grave marker, there were a lot of other crosses in that row!

I'm going to re-read, more slowly, the other posts again now!

Alan

[john w.]

If you look at the between the wars photo taken from the website on post 131 near the cross of sacrifice there are 8 rows, and in later ones there are 7

John

[Alan_J]

So, having read again through the posts, we have a number of theories, but I don't think we are closer to "solving" this intriguing mystery! However, Tim thinks he can count 8 rows of graves where now there are seven - if this is true it would seem definitive, although I could not see this on the original postcard. If I get the chance over the weekend I will follow Andrew's lead and post a high-quality scan somewhere so you can take a look for yourselves!

However, just to add some relevant information, the postcard I have of Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery is one of a series in a booklet (as described about 5 pages back in this thread!).

In most of the photos of cemeteries in this booklet, no names on crosses are visible. However, in two cases where they are, there are discrepancies between the state then and the state today.

1. At Oxford Road Cemetery the early-1920s postcard shows a single cross with two names on. Today there are two separate headstones, each with one name.

2. At Perth (China Wall) Cemetery one cross is positioned clearly well in front of others in the "row". Today, all headstones in the row are exactly aligned.

So, although the IWGC took on the cemeteries from the military, and their role was to make these cemeteries permanent, these occasions where permanent headstones do not "fit" with the original layout do occur. In many cases though (say Polygon Wood Cemetery) the layout of graves remains very haphazard, reflecting the original burial layout.

This of course doesn't solve anything in the current issue, but we must not assume CWGC did not make mistakes. By the way, this is no criticism - I have nothing but admiration for the role IWGC/CWGC have played and continue to play, and what we have in terms of war graves and how they are miantained never ceases to amaze and move me - but an ex-boss of mine used to say "The man who never made a mistake never made anything".

Alan

[Alan_J]

If you look at the between the wars photo taken from the website on post 131 near the cross of sacrifice there are 8 rows, and in later ones there are 7

John

John,

This photo (and the one in #131) are from my own website - I think the 8 rows you are referring to in this "between the wars" photo (although it may be post WW2) include the row of special memorials right at the back against the wall.

As these were added when the cemetery was made permanent (I believe, Terry D please correct if wrong), there are only 7 rows of actual graves, as today - the plan on the CWGC website and as posted earlier in this thread shows these too.

Alan

[Aurel Sercu]

Aurel.

There is also Sgt W Bold, Scots Guards died 19/4/16 in Polecapelle in LIV A7!

Neil

Neil,

You're right. I can't explain how I made this mistake. Probably because I also checked the Scots Guards fallen the day before (18/4/16), and these (3) were buried at Poperinge New Military Cemetery. And I guess Walter Bold being the first (alphabetically) who fell on the following day I must have marked one "Poperinge NBC" too many.

So Bold = Poelkapelle LIV.A.7, and Torrome = LIV.A.5.

As this is the weekend and you have nothing else to do, maybe finding the identity of LIV.A.6, the man in between, is irresistible ?

(Just kidding of course. For even if we know who he is, we all know that this does not prove that he has got something to do with the Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery Disappeared Row, since there was hardly any system in the reburials at concentration cemeteries.)

***

John, Alan,...

I agree with Alan. Both the postcard with the original markers (can be seen # 108) and the postcard showing the cemetery between WW1 and 2 (same situation now) show 8 rows. But :

- First postcard shows the Disappeared Row + the 7 rows which are now named A, B, C, D, E, F and G

- Second postcard shows A, B, C, D, E, F, G + Special Memorials.

Aurel

[ian turner]

Guys, I went through all this with the cemetery reprts for Poelcapelle, as reported in one of my earlier threads, and Terry confirmed LIVA 6 is an unknown, as are some more nearby.

The truth of Torrome's burial hopefully lies in the CWGC records, which we are all very keen to know about, but might have to kurb our anxiety in waiting a bit!

Ian

[Northern Soul]

Here is my humble theory, for what it's worth:

A quick summary of the evidence,

A row of graves shown on a post-war photo is no longer present, with the added mystery that at least two of the men whose name can be seen are now commemorated on the Menin Gate and another is known to be buried at Poelkappelle (Pte. Torrome). In the next but one grave at Poelkappelle lies Sgt. Bold, killed on the same day as Pte. Torrome while serving in the same unit (Scots Guards).

What I think may have happened is this; post-war, when the army was collecting bodies and setting out cemeteries, the decision was made to relocate Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery, possibly because they considered that the land would be being reclaimed by its (Belgian) owner. They started by removing this particular row but then stopped and revoked the original decision; Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery was to become one of the permanant cemeteries. During the exhumation process some of the graves were not found to contain any remains hence the memorial commemoration*

The crosses are somewhat battle-damaged. This could imply that there were direct shell-hits on these graves at some point previously and the remains buried there were scattered...............which is why there was no identification when the army started relocating the graves (although this could be discounted because Pte Torrome's remains survived to be identifioed?).

There are another couple of markers which could be used to assess if the rows immediately behind have changed. Two 55th West Lancs Division grave plaques are visible (plus at least two others further over) - identify these and see if their current position ties in with their positions on the photos (see my next post as well).

Best wishes.

Andy.

* I think the pertinent question is why there is no Special Memorial to the men known to have been buried here, rather than them being commemorated on the Menin Gate.

[Northern Soul]

The second row in this photo is now Plot II Row A. The eighth grave along bears a 55th West Lancs. Div. plaque - it is L/Cpl. Thomas Akister, of the 1st/4th King's Own, who is listed as being buried in II. A. 8. Thus the second row can't have changed that much.

A truly fascinating thread.

Best wishes.

Andy.

[Aurel Sercu]

1.

What I think may have happened is this; post-war, when the army was collecting bodies and setting out cemeteries, the decision was made to relocate Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery, possibly because they considered that the land would be being reclaimed by its (Belgian) owner. They started by removing this particular row but then stopped and revoked the original decision; Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery was to become one of the permanant cemeteries. During the exhumation process some of the graves were not found to contain any remains hence the memorial commemoration*

2.

The crosses are somewhat battle-damaged. This could imply that there were direct shell-hits on these graves at some point previously and the remains buried there were scattered...............which is why there was no identification when the army started relocating the graves (although this could be discounted because Pte Torrome's remains survived to be identifioed?).

3.

There are another couple of markers which could be used to assess if the rows immediately behind have changed. Two 55th West Lancs Division grave plaques are visible (plus at least two others further over) - identify these and see if their current position ties in with their positions on the photos.

4.

* I think the pertinent question is why there is no Special Memorial to the men known to have been buried here, rather than them being commemorated on the Menin Gate.

Andy,

Welcome in the Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery Disappeared Row Mystery club. (Or had you been in it before ? There have been so many postings by now ...)

Just a few thoughts. Don't really see them as "criticism", for we need all the ideas we can get.

1. Though there is nothing to prove it, I am certainly not saying that this does not make sense of course. (E.g. what you said about land being reclaimed by a Belgian Chateau owner. This happened indeed near Ploegsteert.) However, the thing is that the whole PLOT II is post Armistice.

From CWGC on line (someone else has already quoted this in a previous posting : "Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery was used from May 1915 to September 1918 and at the end of the war, consisted of Plot I. Plot II was formed after the Armistice when graves were brought in from isolated sites and small burial grounds to the north-east. "

So that would mean that soon / right after these approx. 7 rows of 30 graves = 210 graves had been moved to Potijze Chateau Grounds Cem, it was decided to relocate them again ? Not impossible, but a bit unlikely ?

2. Yes, damaged. But not all. Not the small ones, in darker wood. I think you can call them standard crosses. The taller white ones are damaged indeed.

This is what I think : these over 200 remains were taken from various places in the Salient, possibly (but not necessarily) nearby. They all got a new cross, a small standard one. Except some, who were given back the original tall white cross they had on the spot they were found. (Gardiner, Cobbold, Torrome, Jones, and a dozen more.) Why these ones ? Maybe because the names were still clearly legible. The damage to these crosses had occurred where they had been first, in other battlefields or small battlefield cemeteries. The damage certainly did not happen after they had already been relocated to Potijze Chateau Grounds Cem Plot II, for that was after the war, when there was no more shelling.

3. Sorry, Andy, which ones do you mean ? (Maybe you used colour to mark them on the photo ? The problem is that I am not very good at seeing colours.

4. Correct.

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

(...) The eighth grave along bears a 55th West Lancs. Div. plaque (...) the second row can't have changed that much.

Andy,

Are you telling me that you can see that grave 8 in the second row (now A) bears a 55th West Lancs. Div. plaque ?! You have perfect vision !

But you're right, there is no reason to assume that the second row (now A) has changed.

Aurel

[Northern Soul]

.................. However, the thing is that the whole PLOT II is post Armistice.

From CWGC on line (someone else has already quoted this in a previous posting : "Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery was used from May 1915 to September 1918 and at the end of the war, consisted of Plot I. Plot II was formed after the Armistice when graves were brought in from isolated sites and small burial grounds to the north-east. "

So that would mean that soon / right after these approx. 7 rows of 30 graves = 210 graves had been moved to Potijze Chateau Grounds Cem, it was decided to relocate them again ? Not impossible, but a bit unlikely ?

....................

3. Sorry, Andy, which ones do you mean ? (Maybe you used colour to mark them on the photo ? The problem is that I am not very good at seeing colours.............

Aurel

Hi Aurel,

No, my first foray into this one although, as I say, I am fascinated by it.

Good point about Plot II being post-armistice, although are we certain about this? Does the Plot contain random dated headstones or has it been filled chronologically?

I'll try and mark the plaque positions and repost.

Best wishes.

Andy.

[Northern Soul]

3. Sorry, Andy, which ones do you mean ? (Maybe you used colour to mark them on the photo ? The problem is that I am not very good at seeing colours.

Aurel,

I have marked them in white. Hope you can see them now. No prizes for neatness I'm afraid.

Best wishes Andy.

[Alan_J]

I can see a small plaque on the upright on the 8th cross along in row A (using Aurel's nomenclature the disappeared row being A*). I'm not sure I could identify it though!

But, having re-examined the original I can persuade myself there are indeed 8 rows of crosses where now there are 7 (plus a row of special memorial stones). To let others have a better look, I've put a high-resolution scan of the picture which can be found here: -

http://www.firstworldwarlinks.com/archives/pcg1.jpg

High-resolution doesn't necessarily mean high-quality! But perhaps others can say what they think in terms of the numbers of rows from this.

Alan

[Northern Soul]

Andy,

Are you telling me that you can see that grave 8 in the second row (now A) bears a 55th West Lancs. Div. plaque ?! You have perfect vision !

But you're right, there is no reason to assume that the second row (now A) has changed.

Aurel

Perfect vision - I wish ! My optician doesn't think so.

[Northern Soul]

I can see a small plaque on the upright on the 8th cross along in row A (using Aurel's nomenclature the disappeared row being A*). I'm not sure I could identify it though!

Alan,

You don't need to be able to see it clearly; the fact that there is a white plaque means it is 55th (West Lancs.) Div. and their presence on old photos is really useful when looking for "markers" to compare with to-day's cemetery layouts. It was something unique to the 55th Division and to-day, they are highly collectable. I have only ever seen one original.

A good example is shown below, where 7 are visible (one of the reasons I bought the postcard).

Best wishes.

Andy.

[Aurel Sercu]

Good point about Plot II being post-armistice, although are we certain about this? Does the Plot contain random dated headstones or has it been filled chronologically?

Andy.

Andy,

Are we certain about this ? I must say I wondered about that too. Michael Scott "The ypres Salient" says the same (in slightly different words), but I suppose he took it from the (original) CWGC register.

Chronologically ? It looks like the Cemetery will have another visit from me soon.

Anyway the lay-out of Plot II (7 neat rows of 3 x 10 graves in each row ; see Tim's plan in posting # 41) looks a lot more regular than the rows in Plot I and the rows in the adjacent Potijze Chateau Lawn Cemetery.

Aurel

[Northern Soul]

.....................It looks like the Cemetery will have another visit from me soon................

Aurel

I am envious of your freedom to just 'pop out' and visit these places. If you do go, and you have any spare time, I'd be really grateful if you could take a photo of the grave of Sapper C. Campbell, R.E. buried in Plot I. E. 18.

Best wishes.

Andy.

[Terry Denham]

For you to play with....

Here are the details of the men in Plot II. Missing grave numbers will be Unknowns or empty graves. Random dates mostly 1917 but some 1915 & 1918.

II. A. 02. ARNOTT J Private 22041 Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) 01-Aug-17

II. A. 03. BAKER E R Driver 4127 Australian Field Artillery 19-Oct-17

II. A. 04. CAMPBELL J Private 31960 Royal Scots Fusiliers 31-Jul-17

II. A. 05. HAGAN M Private 30698 Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers 05-Aug-17

II. A. 06. HARLOCK W W Lance Corporal 40564 West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own) 27-Sep-17

II. A. 08. AKISTER T Lance Corporal 200442 King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) 31-Jul-17

II. A. 09. WESTACOTT E Corporal L/8832 The Buffs (East Kent Regiment) 24-Apr-15

II. A. 10. SCARLETT N W Private 33772 Canterbury Regiment, N.Z.E.F. 30-Sep-17

II. A. 11. LEWIS H Gunner 127171 Royal Field Artillery 01-Aug-17

II. A. 12. GRIGGS W Gunner L/31031 Royal Field Artillery 01-Aug-17

II. A. 13. DIGNAM G Private 15038 Royal Munster Fusiliers 31-Jul-17

II. A. 18. MORAN B Serjeant 25867 Royal Dublin Fusiliers 01-Aug-17

II. A. 20. HALL G W Rifleman 2012 Royal Irish Rifles 16-Aug-17

II. A. 23. MELLOR C H Corporal 242244 Royal Warwickshire Regiment 07-Sep-17

II. A. 24. WEBB W Private 242524 Royal Warwickshire Regiment 07-Sep-17

II. A. 25. CROFT J Private 260199 Royal Warwickshire Regiment 07-Sep-17

II. A. 26. HOLDEN H H Lance Corporal 242481 Royal Warwickshire Regiment 07-Sep-17

II. A. 27. JONES G H Private 241074 Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry 12-Aug-17

II. A. 28. HOWDON J T Private 8/2079 Durham Light Infantry 27-Apr-15

II. A. 30. EPPINGSTALL G R R Lance Sergeant 2245 Australian Infantry, A.I.F. 05-Oct-17

II. B. 02. MAHY W Private 832 Royal Guernsey Light Infantry 31-Mar-18

II. B. 03. PINFOLD W E Gunner 82379 Royal Garrison Artillery 07-Oct-17

II. B. 04. McCONVILLE J Private 1230 Border Regiment 22-May-15

II. B. 05. EASTHAM J Lance Corporal 426173 Royal Engineers 31-Jul-17

II. B. 06. DRAKE A L Private 6299 5th Dragoon Guards (Princess Charlotte of Wales's) 13-May-15

II. B. 16. CONNEFF J Private 266300 Gloucestershire Regiment 24-Aug-17

II. B. 17. JONES S Rifleman 200160 The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 31-Jul-17

II. B. 18. BAXENDEN R Lance Corporal 202649 The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 31-Jul-17

II. B. 19. PEMBERTON G F Private 350073 The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 31-Jul-17

II. B. 20. HOLMES H Private 681594 Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regiment) 05-Nov-17

II. B. 21. MALTMAN J Private 76680 Tank Corps 22-Aug-17

II. B. 23. McCLUSKEY J Private 21337 Royal Irish Fusiliers 17-Aug-17

II. B. 24. MANNING J Private 16004 Royal Irish Fusiliers 17-Aug-17

II. B. 25. JONES T J Rifleman 241742 South Lancashire Regiment 20-Sep-17

II. B. 26. COLDRICK W J Lance Corporal 50239 South Lancashire Regiment 20-Sep-17

II. B. 27. JONES A E Rifleman 203694 South Lancashire Regiment 20-Sep-17

II. B. 28. SMYTH T J Rifleman 1526 Royal Irish Rifles 16-Aug-17

II. B. 29. SAYWELL G N Private 10/3387 Wellington Regiment, N.Z.E.F. 17-Oct-17

II. B. 30. KEW R W G Corporal 478424 Royal Engineers 16-Oct-17

II. C. 01. PRICE L S Private 87175 Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) 05-Aug-17

II. C. 02. PATTON H Rifleman 242132 The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 31-Jul-17

II. C. 04. OWEN A Lance Corporal 27135 Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) 05-Aug-17

II. C. 05. PATERNOSTER A Gunner 53961 Royal Garrison Artillery 04-Nov-17

II. C. 05. MILLER W Gunner 99915 Royal Garrison Artillery 04-Nov-17

II. C. 06. HILLS J Gunner 376162 Royal Garrison Artillery 04-Nov-17

II. C. 06. JONES T Gunner 54392 Royal Garrison Artillery 04-Nov-17

II. C. 10. WOODS J W H Private 3/10226 Royal Irish Regiment 02-Aug-17

II. C. 11. HALSE W C Private 291117 The Loyal North Lancashire Regiment 04-Aug-17

II. C. 14. MORRIS H Private 352567 Manchester Regiment 09-Oct-17

II. C. 17. WALKER W Private 201895 King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) 02-Aug-17

II. C. 18. HEPWORTH T D Corporal 240976 King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) 31-Jul-17

II. C. 19. EVELY F R Private 26577 Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry 02-Oct-17

II. C. 20. GOSS H Private 21431 Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry 02-Oct-17

II. C. 21. GUTHRIE G Private 25319 King's Own Scottish Borderers 31-Jul-17

II. C. 25. FENN A E 2nd Corporal 496062 Royal Engineers 27-Aug-17

II. C. 26. VANGORPH E Private 201655 Gloucestershire Regiment 26-Aug-17

II. C. 27. McFALL T L Second Lieutenant Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers 07-Aug-17

II. C. 28. WHITEHEAD H M Private 202582 Gloucestershire Regiment 20-Aug-17

II. C. 29. WARNER S L Private 240953 Leicestershire Regiment 30-Sep-17

II. C. 30. SINGLETON S G Driver 180030 Royal Field Artillery 30-Sep-17

II. D. 06. KEEVERS H R Private 2132 Australian Pioneers 29-Oct-17

II. D. 08. SMITH A D Private S/8021 Gordon Highlanders 01-Aug-17

II. D. 12. FISHER J A Private 2328 Australian Infantry, A.I.F. 13-Oct-17

II. D. 14. BROCKLEBANK W H Private 7196 Australian Infantry, A.I.F. 13-Oct-17

II. D. 15. FERGUSON A Private 282006 Canadian Infantry (Nova Scotia Regiment) 30-Oct-17

II. D. 16. TAYLOR A Serjeant C/9658 King's Royal Rifle Corps 26-Sep-17

II. D. 17. SMITH J A Gunner 27148 Australian Field Artillery 19-Oct-17

II. D. 18. COOK F G Rifleman C/9911 King's Royal Rifle Corps 26-Sep-17

II. D. 19. TAYLOR W H Private 251508 Manchester Regiment 06-Sep-17

II. D. 21. WALTON R F W Second Lieutenant West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own) 26-Sep-17

II. D. 23. CANNING T Private 3/3563 Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 31-Jul-17

II. D. 24. MORRISON J S Lance Corporal 15339 Highland Light Infantry 01-Aug-17

II. D. 26. JACKSON H Second Lieutenant Machine Gun Corps 21-Mar-18

II. D. 27. FRECKELTON J M Driver 82099 Royal Field Artillery 11-Oct-17

II. D. 29. HILL D E W Driver 94027 Royal Field Artillery 11-Oct-17

II. D. 30. BROWN G J Private 3072/A Australian Infantry, A.I.F. 19-Oct-17

II. E. 04. MORRISON R Lance Corporal 375302 Royal Scots 26-Sep-17

II. E. 06. FISKE L Private 19923 Royal Dublin Fusiliers 17-Aug-17

II. E. 07. BRADLEY P J Private 12533 Royal Dublin Fusiliers 17-Aug-17

II. E. 08. CHRISTIE J Private 45867 Royal Scots 22-Aug-17

II. E. 09. JACK W E Private 331139 Royal Scots 22-Aug-17

II. E. 10. CLARK G E Sapper 476956 Royal Engineers 16-Oct-17

II. E. 18. STORRAR A W Second Lieutenant Royal Dublin Fusiliers 16-Aug-17

II. E. 19. MOONEY D G Second Lieutenant Royal Dublin Fusiliers 17-Aug-17

II. E. 21. SMYTH J Rifleman 18786 Royal Irish Rifles 06-Aug-17

II. E. 22. RICHARDS H E Corporal 43582 Royal Irish Rifles 06-Aug-17

II. E. 23. GIBSON W J Rifleman 17702 Royal Irish Rifles 06-Aug-17

II. E. 24. PARRY W C Private 9208 Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers 09-Aug-16

II. E. 25. GORDON R Private 27489 Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers 09-Aug-16

II. E. 26. WHITELEY W W Serjeant 201051 The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 31-Jul-17

II. E. 28. MORGAN W H E Sergeant 11099 South African Infantry 20-Sep-17

II. E. 29. HOWE H W C Driver 9634 Australian Engineers 15-Oct-17

II. E. 30. BLAIR J Rifleman 235344 The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 31-Jul-17

II. F. 05. LYONS F W Private 18619 Hampshire Regiment 16-May-18

II. F. 10. LUMBARD C A Private 41864 Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers 16-Aug-17

II. F. 19. MADDEN S Private 43159 Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers 16-Aug-17

II. F. 20. BROADLEY H Captain Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers 06-Aug-17

II. F. 23. ASBURY E Private 40781 Royal Dublin Fusiliers 16-Aug-17

II. F. 25. DAWSON J Private 45716 Royal Scots Fusiliers 22-Aug-17

II. F. 26. HILL G Private 86133 Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) 24-Sep-17

II. F. 28. FLYNN J Private 19429 Royal Dublin Fusiliers 17-Aug-17

II. F. 30. MILLAR J R Captain Royal Dublin Fusiliers 16-Aug-18

II. G. 01. HOOD J U Sergeant 1087 Australian Pioneers 15-Oct-17

II. G. 02. FARRELL J M Private 2301 Australian Pioneers 15-Oct-17

II. G. 03. BARRY J Private 43157 Royal Irish Fusiliers 15-Aug-17

II. G. 04. McLEESE J Private 443293 Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regiment) 26-Oct-17

II. G. 05. ANDERSON W T C Private 39163 Royal Scots 22-Aug-17

II. G. 07. GREAVES G H Gunner 76001 Royal Field Artillery 10-Oct-17

II. G. 09. MANN W S Private 41009 Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers 06-Aug-17

II. G. 10. TRELOAR H Lance Corporal 201508 Lancashire Fusiliers 06-Sep-17

II. G. 17. BREE O Private 331094 Royal Scots 22-Aug-17

II. G. 20. PAYNE E Gunner 128328 Royal Field Artillery 10-Oct-17

II. G. 21. FITTON J A Private 241339 Lancashire Fusiliers 06-Sep-17

II. G. 23. PROBYN H Sapper 438195 Royal Engineers 06-Sep-17

II. G. 24. RITCHIE C Sapper 438084 Royal Engineers 06-Sep-17

II. G. 25. SMITH H Sapper 438203 Royal Engineers 06-Sep-17

II. G. 28. BUTTERWORTH J Private 201415 Lancashire Fusiliers 06-Sep-17

II. G. 29. DUPERRON R Private 417243 Canadian Infantry (Quebec Regiment) 11-Nov-17

II. G. 30. EMMERSON W Private 240985 Lancashire Fusiliers 06-Sep-17

[Aurel Sercu]

Andy,

OK. Your wish is my command. I was about to set out for a bike ride this afternoon anyway. Hope the sun is still in the ideal position (to have the best contrast possible to read the inscriptions).

Terry,

Thanks for the list ! I counted 119 headstones I think. (But I 'm not a good counter ...)

210 headstones in Plot II. Which means 91 headstones of Unknowns. And even more Unknown men. For there is 1 "triple unknown, and IIRC 9 "doubles".

What I mean : looks like many graves indeed came from the surrounding battlefield.

Aurel

[Neil Mackenzie]

Looking at the postcard that has been posted a couple of times (latest in #160) there are two signs at the end of the first two rows.

The sign at the end of what is now row A seems to say 'Plot 2' but can anyone read what is on the other sign at the end of what is our mystery row? None of the other rows have any sign against them which may indicate that the missing row was 'special' in some way.

Sorry if this has already been mentioned but this thread is getting quite complicated to follow - on the plus side it is keeping Aurel fit!

Neil

[Alan_J]

Northern Soul said:

Good point about Plot II being post-armistice, although are we certain about this? Does the Plot contain random dated headstones or has it been filled chronologically?

Andy.

I think the possibility Plot 2 is NOT post-armistice is a very real one. I have quite a few early postcards of cemeteries, and in fact a year ago I posted an image of one, probably just post-armistice, which was not identified by name here on the forum. Thanks to some great detective work it was identified as Potijze Chateau Grounds by Simon Jones. I think this photo has actually been posted on this thread several pages ago - but I thought I would look back at the original identifying thread. Late on in it, Jacky Platteeuw posted a postcard to compare, which on looking back turns out to be identical to the one I posted here (I later purchased a similar booklet of postcards, although the publication details are not the same as Jacky quotes).

The point is, the early postcard was I think very early post-armistice - the elephant iron bunkers can be seen and the ruins of the chateau itself. However, as pointed out by Jacky the graves match up with the postcard I posted in this thread (where the ruins and the bunkers are gone) - and they are Plot 2 for sure.

To clarify, the match-up post on that thread is here: -

 

The postcard itself as originally posted in that thread is here: -

 

The whole thread is worth a read!

The graves in Plot 2 may be post-armistice but it looks as if they may have been either very soon post-armistice or even concentrated during the war itself? Did that happen?

Somewhere I have a newspaper report about a league formed after the war which wanted to preserve the ruins of various building remains, which I think included what was left of 'Bedford House' Chateau and also Potijze - I'll see if I can dig it out and see what the date was.

Alan

[Alan_J]

The sign at the end of what is now row A seems to say 'Plot 2' but can anyone read what is on the other sign at the end of what is our mystery row?

Neil

Neil,

The sign at the end of row A does say Plot 2 - unfortunately the sign at the end of row A* (now vanished) cannot be read - I thought of this too and have tried scanning in this portion at very high resolution indeed - but sadly nothing

However, I do think you have a very good point - why have a sign there? The other sign says Plot 2, There is a sign in front which names the cemetery....so what other sign would be needed by that row?

Alan

[Northern Soul]

Alan/Aurel,

After a lot of mental gymnastics (and some deleted posts to eradicate my mistakes !) I have convinced myself that the photo below shows Plot I - probably taken from the rubble heap which was all that remained of the Easternmost building of Potijze Chateau. There is no sign of Plot II so it would appear that the CWGC description of it being a post-war concentration is correct.