ian turner Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 Nothing better than a good mystery, is there? We are led to believe that the photo is indeed of Potijze Chateau Grounds cemy, since there are other identified burials of that cemy seen in the photo, and which picture also bears the title of this graveyard. But Capt Gardiner is down as a 'missing', as is Pvte Cobbold. Furthermore Pvte Torrome is listed as buried at Poelcapelle. For Terry D - I presume Pvte Cobbold's entry as being buried at Poelcapelle is correct, and not the subject of a clerical error? If it is correct, then it points to these front three crosses as being memorials, rather than actual grave markers. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 Ian Cobbold is on the Menin Gate. It is Torrome who is at Poelcapelle. He is listed as being there in the 1928 CWGC register - along with over six thousand Unknowns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 Nothing better than a good mystery, is there? Indeed. I thank you all for your interest and suggestions. I'm not convinced that all 3 were memorial markers, though there is a growing case for Gardiner it would seem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 Terry, Sorry - now it was my clerical error... Anyway, I believe Poelcapelle was a postwar concentration cemetery? Does Pvte Torrome's file have any reference to a previous grave? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 Anyway, I believe Poelcapelle was a postwar concentration cemetery? Does Pvte Torrome's file have any reference to a previous grave? Yes it was. One of my earliest thoughts on all of this was why relocate Torrome when the cemetery he was in was not being closed down? Doesn't make any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 Torrome is in plot LIV. A. 5 at Poelcapelle. I wonder who is adjacent to him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 Had a quick trawl through the Poelcapelle cemetery report. Did not find L IV A 6. Numbers below A 5 seem to be Rifle Brigade burials, but A 7 is a Scots Guards. Terry D again, can you easily see who is buried in L IV A 6? Is it an unknown? Ian Poelcapelle Cemy - from row L IV A series: Name: BOLD Initials: W Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Serjeant Regiment/Service: Scots Guards Unit Text: 2nd Bn. Date of Death: 19/04/1916 Service No: 8386 Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: LIV. A. 7. Cemetery: POELCAPELLE BRITISH CEMETERY Name: BUNCE, FREDERICK Initials: F Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Serjeant Regiment/Service: Rifle Brigade Unit Text: 1st Bn. Age: 30 Date of Death: 13/05/1915 Service No: 9331 Additional information: Son of Mrs. Lucy Bunce, of 27, New St., Andover, Hants; husband of Beatrice Ferguson (formerly Bunce), of 19, Hawke St., Portsea, Portsmouth. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: LIV. A. 3. Cemetery: POELCAPELLE BRITISH CEMETERY Name: CARPENTER Initials: C A Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Rifleman Regiment/Service: Rifle Brigade Unit Text: 1st Bn Date of Death: 13/05/1915 Service No: Z/825 Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: LIV. A. 1. Cemetery: POELCAPELLE BRITISH CEMETERY Name: STEWART Initials: J A L Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Lieutenant Regiment/Service: Rifle Brigade Unit Text: 1st Bn. Date of Death: 13/05/1915 Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: LIV. A. 4. Cemetery: POELCAPELLE BRITISH CEMETERY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 There are Unknowns in LIV.A. 2 / 6 / 8-13 / 15-17 However, do not assume that two bodies moved from the same location would be reburied next to each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 Thanks Terry. Any chance to find out if Pvte Torrome had a previous grave? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 Patience young man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 Oh to be young again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 The cross may well be slightly forward of the others in the row. It isn't always possible to get an accurate idea of relative positions because we don't know the camera angle or the focal length of the lens being used. But - a possible reason for the cross being further forward than the others in the row, and being rather grander, is that Capt. Gardiner MIGHT have two crosses on his grave. This is not as unusual as it might sound. Below is a picture from the Graves Registration Unit showing the grave of 2/Lieut. W. H. Young. The black cross with white lettering is clearly to him, but so is the white celtic cross to the left - again, out of alignment with the rest of the black crosses in the row because it has been added later, at the foot of the grave. The inscription has all the same identification details as the black cross, name, unit, date of death etc. But right at the bottom, on the biggest of the three stepped piece making up the base, it says, "Erected by B Coy." I wonder if Capt Gardiner has a similar, separate cross added as a mark of special respect by his comrades - "The NCOs and Men of the 12th H.L.I." Maybe this is the cross we can see in the photo and there is another, less ornate one just out of shot to the left. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick H Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 fascinating thread. Hope you can find the answres you are looking for, I'll be watching Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 Ian - good scanning of CWGC. Is there a way of doing this that I'm unaware of, i.e. some way of searching on plot numbers? Terry - I was just exploring the highly unlikely possibility of all three being relocated to Poelcapelle and two ending up as 'unknown'. A flight of fancy - you have to humour me sometimes. Tom - interesting idea which would make a lot of sense. Shame the photographer wasn't looking just a little bit more to the left! I don't know about the rest of you but I'm really hooked by this little mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 Andrew, I just used 'elbow-grease' to trawl through the cemetery reports for Poelcapelle, keeping an eye on the grave plots in the L IV series. There may be a computer-whizzo method of bringing up such info but I do not know of it. It is a pity the CWGC site was not constructed fully data-base searchable, but I guess we cannot have it all... Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auimfo Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 Hi guys, This is a fascinating thread with a real Agatha Christie twist. Just something I've noticed. When I checked the CWGC records and plans for Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery I noticed that GH Jones was buried in II.A.27. Now by looking at the wider angle photo and taking note of where Andrew marked Jones grave to be (with his big red arrow) it would indeed appear that Jones is about 7th in line of a group of 10 and the setout of the cemetery seems to co-incide with the plan (of which I've attached an image). Theoretically we should be able to identify almost all the graves in the photo. BUT.....CWGC list Jones grave as being in row A, which is the front row and there are no rows in front of that on the plan. According to the photo there are quite a number in front. It would seem that potentially there was a whole row of graves either lost or moved. The plot thickens my dear Poirot! Tim L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 Ooohh. Good shout Sherlock. Right, we need Sabine to tell us where she claims to have seen the other one. And also I suppose to confirm that the one I marked is G.H. Jones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 Sorry if this has already been brought up in one of the previous postings (I read them all, I think, but maybe I missed parts of one or two of them). But in what way was 12th Bn. HLI involved in the first day of Third Ypres (31 July 1917) ? 15th (Scottish) Division, 46the Brigade was, I know, but McCarthy "Passchendaele The Day-by-Day Account, makes mention of 10/11 HLI, but not of 12th Bn, not even in support. Actually my question means : if a battalion in a brigade was not employed, where was it then ? Where was 12th Bn. HLI on 31 July 1917 ? (Was it at Potyze Chateau, nearby, right behind the line of advance, and so : subject to enemy artillery shelling. I think someone in the other postings wrote that there were not many casualties in 12th Bn. HLI that day.) I know this will hardly add anything to solving the puzzle, yet ... (Except maybe : are we sure that Captain F. Gardiner died at or near Potyze Chateau Grounds and consequently was bound to be buried there ? If not, then this maybe is not a grave marker.) I'm off. Maybe I am on the wrong track. A bit too hot too think for too long. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 Tim, Then the line on the ground in front of Gardiner's grave, in the original picture, would be appx where the modern cemetery boundary would be, with no other graves between the boundary and the section containing G H Jones' grave. Hmm.... Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 After Tim (Aiumfo) posted a cemetery plan, maybe this will help too to make it a bit more visual ? Photo taken from the corner of the cemetery, standing where the C is of Cemetery on the plan Tim posted. The row near the wall, with the back to it, is row A. Aurel (Added half an hour later : sorry, now I realize that this photo was taken from Plot I, with Plot II in the background.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 Does the war diary mention anything about him being buried? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auimfo Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 Well, Sabine thinks she has seen Smyth as well. According to the CWGC, he's buried at II.B.28 which would put him one row behind Jones and one grave to the right. Can Sabine confirm where in the photo she saw Smyth's grave? If I'm correct (which is no certainty) it should be near the one which is a plain white cross about 3cm to the left of Jones grave in the photo. Tim L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auimfo Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 Ian, Yes that could very well be the marking rope for the boundary. Tim L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auimfo Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 Aurel, I think you are referring to Row 'A' in Plot I and Jones grave is in Plot II. (see attached revised plan) Row 'A' in Plot II would be in the middle distance on the other side of the cemetery. Tim L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 26 July , 2006 Share Posted 26 July , 2006 I have a photo of Plot 2 on my website.....could not link to from work, see posts #56 and #57 below! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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