a soldier who used to have a grave

[Auimfo]

Thanks Aurel,

Take a piece of string with a piece of wood tied to the end of it. When the magpie's come for you, swing it around your head, not only does it make it very difficult for the maggies to get at you, the whirring sound tends to frighten them off.

And trust me - we've got those big ******* in Australia, not the smaller European types!!

Tim L.

[Aurel Sercu]

OK, Tim, you started becoming less serious in this over-serious thread. (Actually it was me starting this magpie thing, wasn't it. Anyway, we all need a bit of fresh air in this heated thread, don't we. Though right now I wouldn't know where to find that bit of fresh air here, except in the fridge.)

So here he is, photo taken 26 July 2005. (Yesterday was one year ago that I survived the Attack of the Potijze Killer Magpie.) Not taken with a zoom lens, but from a distance of approx. 2 feet. (At the time I still intrepidly thought magpies were cute birds). You see that twinkle in his eye ? Well, that's the reflection of my flash. A second later that cute little birdie was a Pain in the Neck. Literally.

Aurel

[Auimfo]

I guess the names of the other front row crosses cannot be read even from a good resolution scan?

Ian

Ian,

Yes, it's quite possible. I've done it before when scanning very small photos from my grandfather's collection. I managed to bring out the detail of several crosses and this way identified which cemetery was in the photo.

Here's an example of what I did before. The original photo is about 4.5 cm x 5.5 cm. I was able to identify the two graves as Cpl J. Thomson, AIF and 4259 Spr E.J. GOODWIN, Aust Engineers. From that ID I was able to establish the cemetery as being Dartmoor Cemetery, Becordal-Becourt.

Tim L.

[ian turner]

Tim,

Thanks - then let us hope it can be done in this case too.

Ian

[manchester regiment]

is it possible that capt gardiner was blown to pieces and his men buried what they found,there may not have been very much left of him to bury and when the grave was opened up,this had all rotted away,if anyone has the book on special memorials on the western front,theres a mystery surrounding major cedric dickins,he was buried by his men and the grave properly marked,when major dickens family came to relocate him,he wasnt there,but a piece of a majors uniform was found some yards away,maybe the CWGC found nothing because it had all rotted away,so they listed him as missing,bernard

[ian turner]

Mancs,

There still may be some truth in what you say, but looking at the CWGC site it gives the history of this cemetery as follows:

Potijze was within the Allied lines during practically the whole of the First Word War and although subject to incessant shell fire, Potijze Chateau contained an advanced dressing station. Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery was used from May 1915 to September 1918 and at the end of the war, consisted of Plot I. Plot II was formed after the Armistice when graves were brought in from isolated sites and small burial grounds to the north-east.

Capt Gardiner, and the 'missing row' were in the area of Plot II, which according to the above is a post-war concentration site. If there was indeed a burial for Capt Gardiner at Potijze then there would still needed to have been sufficient remains (after the war) to have been removed from the original battlefield grave site. It does not look as if he was buried at this cemetery when he fell. (But I could be wrong...)

Ian

[Aurel Sercu]

Back from Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery, and thanks to the Pal who sent me a shower on my way to the Cemetery. Soooo refreshing !

And the cemetery was magpie-free. !Only a heron on a chimney nearby, who looked at me all the time with a great deal of suspicion. But left me alone. (And, NO, it was NOT a stork on that chimney ! I have children and recognize one when I see it coming !

Here are some pics. Actually the first are nothing new, and Alan ww1b has already done a better job, with beautiful clouds in a blue sunny sky, and Tim Auimfo drawing lines and other markings on the photo. (Which I cannot do. I don't even know how to post 2 pics one next to the other in the same posting.)

So this is almost the same as Alan's (ww1b) photo in posting # 56. The difference is that I include part of the wall, to show where it is. To make it as much as possible like the original post war photo (which I will post again in a following posting, to allow comparison) I should have moved back more, but that's impossible, because of a tall hedge right against the wall, making it impossible to take a photo from outside the cemetery.

As to the wall I can say that that line on the ground in Sabine/Andrew's photo (which I will post again) is 100% in line with the wall near the front row (E) of Plot I. (This is getting complicated, I know. I think some of you may find it useful to go back to the plan Tim (Auimfo) posted in # 41.)

[Aurel Sercu]

And the original photo, posted by alan as # 56, to compare.

[Aurel Sercu]

This is the photo it all started with, posted by Sabine / Andrew, as # 4.

[Aurel Sercu]

And this is the modern version.

Showing in the front row A headstones 16 to 30.

[Aurel Sercu]

The big mystery of course still remains : what happened to the first row in Sabine's photo ?

(I call that row A* (with an asterisk), and if these graves had still been there the graves in Sabine's photo would have been numbered 15 (= Gardiner) to 24.)

And just in case the Sherlock Holmes's among you might wonder : maybe row A* is still "visible" in the grass between the present row A and the wall, I took this photo.

Even if it looks a bit like it, I don't think there is "something" (after alle these years it would be surprising I think !) And if you think you see something : it must be where the lawn mower left a marking where it went.

[Aurel Sercu]

All this does not get us any nearer to a solution of this Mystery of the Disappeared Row.

Yet, there may be something. I happened to see something that drew my attention, and that I find rather remarkable and even bizarre.

The front row on Sabine / Andrew's photo (the row which I call row A*) shows 10 crosses. If these graves had still been there, they would have been numbered A* 15 (Gardiner) - 16 (Torrome) - 17 (Cobbling) - 18 - 19 - 20 - 21 - 22 - 23 (the white cross deep in the ground) - 24.

I had a look at the graves right behind these disappeared crosses of row A*, at the ones right behind A* 15 - 20, that is the present graves A 15 - 20. Of these 6 graves, 5 can be seen on Sabine / Andrew's photo, though nothing can be read on them.

Do you notice anything unusual in this photo ?

[Aurel Sercu]

This is what they say :

The 1stt (from left), grave 15 : "Two soldiers of the Great War"

The 2nd, grave 16 : "Two soldiers of the Great War"

The 3rd, grave 17 : "Two soldiers of the Great War"

The 4th, grave 18 : B. Moran

The 5th, grave 19 : "A soldier of the Great War"

The 6th, grave 20 : G.W. Hall

So there is this remarkable coincidence :

- This thread is about a disappeared row, but focussing on 3 individual crosses : Gardiner, Torrome, Cobbling

- And right behind the place where their graves should be, for each of them there is a headstone "TWO soldiers of the Great War" !

And such "double" stone is very exceptional. I had a look at all the headstones in Plot 2, and there are only 3 of them, the 3 I have just mentioned, and of which I post a photo below.

The thought that crossed my mind of course was : What if for some reason the original 3 crosses disappeared, and the remains left, unidentified, but were included in one stone, the stone behind them ?

I know this sounds farfetched, and of course there is the fact that one of them (I think I remember it was Torrome) was relocated to Poelkapelle ... Maybe it is only a coincidence, but if so, a remarkable one I think.

[Aurel Sercu]

And a few more things to end this series with :

1.

As Alan suggested, I had a look at the Special Memorials near the other (opposite) wall.

There are 12 :

- 7 "Known to be buried" (2 of Oct-Nov 1917, and 5 R.E. fallen on 3 May 1915)

- 5 "Believed to be buried" (Sep-Nov 1917, 1 Lanc. Fus., 1 RAMC, 1 Sco Rif, 2 KRRC)

(I also wrote down the names)

2.

Looking at Sabine/Andrew's photo it seems to me that the metal (?) strips on the crosses of A* 18 - 19 - 20 are of a different type than the ones in the row behind them (the present row A 17 etc.

Is this important or relevant ?

3.

I also took photos of the headstones of

- C.H. Jones, Duke of Cornwall's L.I., 12/8/17, II.A.27

- A.E. Jones, South Lanc, 20/9/17, II.B.27

- T. Jasper Jones, South Lanc, 20/9/17, II.B.25

- J. Ewan, 31/7/17, the only man of 12/HLI in this cemetery, but he is in the other plot : I.B.23

If someone for some reason is interested in the photo, ...

If there are any questions, please feel free to ask. (And hope that I was observative enough when being there to know the anwer !)

Aurel

[sabine72]

Aurel,

Thank you for these photo's,

maybe you are right that they are moved into unknown soldiers graves.

It is so frustrating that all the people who could haven known ar death. I have known them all as a young child .there is still one old neighbour of me alive who maybe could tell something more about the graveyard. I'll pay him a visite. I know he has a lot of old stuff from the potijze area and chateau.

sabine

[Aurel Sercu]

maybe you are right that they are moved into unknown soldiers graves.

It is so frustrating that all the people who could haven known are dead.

Sabine,

Personally I think that the solution of the mystery indeed is in these three "Two soldiers of the Great War" headstones. This just cannot be a coincidence.

But of course, then there is the man relocated to Poelkapelle. Don't know what to think of that.

All the people who could have known are dead... Yes, that's true, but I suppose that the people who could have known the answer died quite a long time ago. What happened to that mysterious row A*, happened in the very first years after the war, maybe in the early 1920s. At a time I think that even the Potijze refugees had not even come back from where they had fled to.

Aurel

[ypres1418]

This thread is very interesting and confusing at the same time, I hope we do get to the bottom of it but I feel that maybe we wont, which is a shame.

Mandy

[MelPack]

Wow - almost 1500 hits in a little over twenty four hours. This thread will end up in the 'classics' where it deserves to be!

I cannot add anything but I would like to thank the contributors for a fascinating read and intelligent comment - and a special thanks to our Belgian colleagues, Sabine and Auriel, for their great work.

Regards

Mel

[john w.]

HAvent read it all... yet.. but looking at the posting 56 57 with the two photos... the older photo have 8 rows and the newer photo has 7 and suggests a missing row...

John

[Aurel Sercu]

John,

Yes, that's what it is all about.

What happened to the missing row ?

My point is that maybe some graves of it may have been "integrated" in the present row A.

Aurel

[ian turner]

Aurel,

Thanks for all your work here, and braving the birds and rain too! (Sounds like a Hitchcock movie!)

Interesting about the double-graves. Looking at the old original pic - are the crosses behind Gardiner

bearing two strips each? And are also some in the row behind that? When looking at the row behind the 'double graves' pic of today, are some of those headstones also for double graves?

Maybe some more info from Terry D about CWGC records will be the best guide we can get at present.

(Terry, I'm still patient )

Ian

[Terry Denham]

Ian

Could take weeks or months. Many records are not available due to the digitising process. Don't hold your breath.

[john w.]

Hi Aurel

Hope you well...

I have at last got to the end of this thread and can see what you suggest, that one of the three double graves may well contain Gardiner.

Although one of the posts suggested that Gardiner was listed in a cemetery register in the late 20s

It is a shame that the names on the early photo cant be enhanced so as to give a greater chance of establishing grave locations. The best link is the wall as that can be seen in both photos.

Looking at the original post I would put it at 15 and not 16 in that row

John

[Aurel Sercu]

1. Looking at the old original pic - are the crosses behind Gardiner

bearing two strips each?

2. And are also some in the row behind that?

3. When looking at the row behind the 'double graves' pic of today, are some of those headstones also for double graves?

Ian,

1. Yes. And in my opinion the ones in Gardiner's row have either something some compact, or 3 strips, but then of the same length, and close together, making them look like rectangle.

2. Yes.

3. The only 3 double graves I saw in Plot II were the ones right behing Gardiner, Torrome and Cobbold.

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

1. Hope you well...

2. I can see what you suggest, that one of the three double graves may well contain Gardiner.

3. Although one of the posts suggested that Gardiner was listed in a cemetery register in the late 20s

John

John,

1. Yes, life is fine when one is not attacked by magpies, herons or storks.

2. Not only one, but also a second double grave, containing N. Cobbold. (3rd cross fromthe left) Seeing the situation at Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery one might say : And Torrome as well (2nd from the left, next to Gardiner).

But that one is a problem. It appears that he is buried now at Poelkapelle British Cemetery. (Which would mean that first Torrome was buried (or found) somewhere on a battlefield, then reburied post Armistice at Potyze Chateau Grounds Cemetery, and then later re-reburied at Poelkapelle.

Unless we assume that in grave LIV.A.5 at Poelkapelle someone else... (And as we all know that would not be the first time that at Poelkapelle someone beneath the headstone is not the name it says on the headstone itself. Sorry if this is only understandable for insiders.)

3. Sorry, I can't remember where it was said. But then there are so many posts in this thread, and it was getting so complicated ... Should you find it back ...

Aurel