Alan_J Posted 29 July , 2006 Share Posted 29 July , 2006 Possibly, but could it be the end of Lawn cemetery? The angle might be such that any progression into Plot 2 of Grounds could not be seen. (For those who don't know the cemetery, it appears as one when you enter with Lawn to the left and Grounds to the right). Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 29 July , 2006 Share Posted 29 July , 2006 Plan: - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 29 July , 2006 Share Posted 29 July , 2006 As you can see, the rows in the Photo seem quite short - as they are in Lawn. The rows in Plot 1 of Grounds are rather longer...... What do people think? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabine72 Posted 29 July , 2006 Author Share Posted 29 July , 2006 alan, I think you are right this one is potyse lawn, The remains of the chateau are in the picture to prove it. sabine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabine72 Posted 29 July , 2006 Author Share Posted 29 July , 2006 hello again, I was just looking again at the original postcard with a magnifing glass and I saw a grave with two names on. from cobbold you move 3 grave to the left an then one up. I could read 16 then two small words the first starting with an R two names J. Russel V.Jones R.... Pioneers. I chected it over and over for 10 minutes does any one sees the same? sabine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 29 July , 2006 Share Posted 29 July , 2006 Thank you so much, Neil, for caring about my physical condition and fitness. But aren't you worried about my mental condition ?! For this thread might drive me n*ts ! Anyway, this afternoon was my third PCGCBR (Potijze Chateau Grounds Bike Ride) in I think 3 days. (And having already scrolled down to # 175 it looks as if I have a PCGCBR part 4 in store. Indeed it looks that some pals will soon disagree about whether that pic is Potijze Chateau Lawn Cemetery or Potyze Chateau Grounds Cemetery plot I or plot II. May I invite these gentlemen also to consider elements such as the way towards which the trees are leaning (in the Ypres area prevailing wind = from southwest) and the shadows of the tree trunks (in the Ypres area the shadows always fall on the opposite side of the sun). Complicated ? Well, it will keep them mentally fit. And my bike in better condition. What if during my bike rides I have a flat tyre ? So I went back to PCGC and took this photo. For it is becoming my conviction that row A* (the Gardiner row) was removed at some time, probably before the final phase in the lay-out of this cemetery, for structural reasons. And this has already been mentioned before in this thread : accessibility. The distance between the present rows A and B now is 2.70 m (or a little less than 9 feet). (The distance between the other rows C, D, E, F, G varies, but the average is approx. 2.70 m too) If row A* (Gardiner row) had been kept where it was on the postcards, then it would have been where I put my blue notebook on the grass, which is a little less than halfway between the present row A and the wall. This would have left 3.70 m between the headstones of row A* and the wall. Is 3.70 m (12 feet) too short a distance (one even has to subtract 1 foot for the plants and flowers at the base of the headstone.) It is certainly enough for visitors to have access to that row, and other rows in that Plot II, and to Plot I. (For in order to reach Plot I, one automatically takes the way between the wall and the first row of Plot II.) Yet, somehow, it would not look better and be more 'comfortable' if that row A* is removed. And besides, with row A* still there, it would mean that a great many visitors would have to walk over the remains below (Am I right when I think that when standing a foot or 2 or 3 in front of any headstone, one is actually standing over the remains themselves ?) Anyway, it looks as if the architects and lay-out men wanted to avoid this, and make more room between the first row and the wall. When I come to think of it, isn't it normal practice in many (most ? all ?) other cemeteries ? I have not paid special attention to it, but if I remember correctly, there is always quite a lot of room in front of the first row. Actually I don't think I am saying something new. I suppose this accessiblilty aspect has already been advanced in other posts. But that does not solve the principal problem : OK, these 30 (?) graves may have been removed for that reason, but where were they reburied ? I don't know ... And the fact that at least one was reburied at Poelkapelle is rather puzzling. Why not in Potijze Chateau Grounds Cem. itself ? After all, there still is a lot of room to the left of Plot II ! Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 29 July , 2006 Share Posted 29 July , 2006 (By the way, Andy, could you let me know off Forum, what your email address is ? I took the Campbell photos (4 : full headstone, top half, epitaph, and headstone in context, and would like to send them to you tonight or tomorrow.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 29 July , 2006 Share Posted 29 July , 2006 I was just looking again at the original postcard with a magnifing glass and I saw a grave with two names on. from cobbold you move 3 grave to the left an then one up. I could read 16 then two small words the first starting with an R two names J. Russel V.Jones R.... Pioneers. I chected it over and over for 10 minutes does any one sees the same? sabine Sabine, You know where I live ? Why don't you come over ? and don't forget the postcard and your magnifying glass. (Sorry, just kidding.) On a serious note. It's impossible to read any name in the Gardiner row I suppose ? (Apart from Torrome and Cobbold that is.) Also this. Someone (Alan or Tim ?) had asked if the graves in Plot II are chronological or not. (If not, this might prove that they are post Armistice.) Well, they are not. Some 'neighbours' have the same date, e.g. 31 July 1917 (not exceptional that some neighbours have the same date, if they were brought in together from a battlefield cemetery), but the graves next to them may be 1915. I did not really take notes, but it was clear to me : the way they are arranged is so 'chaotic' that it is certain that they are not chronological. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 29 July , 2006 Share Posted 29 July , 2006 Aurel, I can see why the graves in row A* might have been removed for access and aesthetic reasons, as you describe. But this move would then have been deliberate. At least two of the men (Torrome and Cobbold) have what appear to be genuine grave markers (I personally think that Gardiner's may well be too). How could two of these (or one at worst) have been "lost" in this move - and how, as you say, did Torrome end up at Poelcapelle? And then there are the other 20 plus graves in row A*. Could they all be unknowns? If not, have their graves been lost too? I know you can't answer these questions, but they bug me! I don't think we have had any joy on the 12/HLI War Diary yet - I was interested enough to check whether this was available on-line. It's not - but that of the 2/Scots Guards is (Torrome, and another soldier, Sgt. Bold, both now in Poelcapelle, both 2/Scots Guards, died on the 19th April 1916). The battalion war diary for the days before are a little unclear (the location on the margin just says "YPRES", but on 15th April 1916 the 2/Scots Guards went into the trenches - their Battalion HQ was at St. Jean, very close to Potijze. On the 19th of April, the diary states positions B9 and B10 were shelled by the Germans all day, intermittently from 6 a.m. intensifying in the late afternoon. B10 was "completely obliterated" and B9 badly damaged. Around 8 pm there was a small German attack on their lines. They were relieved in the night of 19th/20th, and the diary makes no comments on casualties, but presumably they would have suffered them in the bombardment and the German attack. The cross in sabine's picture for Torrome states "Killed in Action" which is why I'm looking at the 19th. However, this does make it likely that Torrome (and possibly Bold?) were killed and buried near Potijze initially. Just to remind you, the CWGC description states "graves were brought in from isolated sites and small burial grounds to the north-east" - which might well fit with action in the line in front of St. Jean. Although CWGC lists Cobbold as 1/Scots Guards, the cross in Sabine's photo looks to me like it may read 2nd rather than 1st.....I wonder? No answers, more questions, but nothing necessitating another bike rise at least! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 29 July , 2006 Share Posted 29 July , 2006 Alan, Yes, of course, when I said that, even if we can claim that Gardiner's row was removed to increase accessibility, that the mystery remains where they were re-buried and why not in in Potijze Chateau Grounds Cem., I had overlooked something even more important : as you write, why Gardiner and Cobbold do not have a grave, but only their names on the Menin Gate Memorial. (I was in a hurry to be with my wife when I wrote that. She had said that I spend too much time on bike rides. Is she suspicious of something ? False alibis ? Whether the other 20 plus graves are unknowns ? Probably not, but if Sabine's magnifying glass or photo enhancement doesn't produce any names on the half a dozen standard crosses in Gardiner's row, I guess we'll never know the answer. As to the Scots Guards War Diary, well, what you found is something at least. I have photocopied fragments of the Histories of all Guards units, but they only start in ... June 1916. Two months late. (But I'll have a look next Wednesday in Ypres.) So Bn. HQ was at St. Jean ? Yes, close indeed : 850 m (1/2 mile) northeast of the cemetery, and the trenches at the time were from Wieltje, Wieltjestraat southeast to Warwick Farm and Zonnebeke Road, the same distance.) So they were indeed probably buried near Potijze. Cobbold 2nd Bn. rather than 1st ? I think I agree. (unfortunately SDGW does not mention a Bn.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 29 July , 2006 Share Posted 29 July , 2006 Not since JC have i seen you so full of bike rides Aurel John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 29 July , 2006 Share Posted 29 July , 2006 John, Julius Caesar ? Jesus Christ ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinglma Posted 29 July , 2006 Share Posted 29 July , 2006 Ladies and Gents If you want 12/HLI war diary for the appropriate dates I would be happy to look in the next few days. Mike S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 30 July , 2006 Share Posted 30 July , 2006 Now suppose those 3 non standard crosses were all 'memorial crosses' and not grave markers: problem(s) would be solved. Gardiner (and possibly NCO's and man), Cobbold on the Menin Gate as missed and Torrome orginally buried at Poelkapelle. Thinking of it: much to simple to be true but who knows. Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 30 July , 2006 Share Posted 30 July , 2006 Jacky. I certainly think that the Gardiner cross is a memorial cross. If Mike can provide details from the war diary this may indicate whether the wording makes sense - i.e. he was the only officer to die that die along with NCO's and men. However, there are another 20 odd crosses in that row that seem to be unaccounted for. Looking at the cemtery plans (yet) again. The postcard in post #166 shows the kink in the cemetery wall virtually level with the grave for GH Jones (the Celtic cross in row 2). The current plan shows the kink in the wall a short (but definate) distance away. I don't think this adds anything but shows that the cemetery layout has changed between the picture being taken and today. It would be nice to solve this puzzle if only to preserve the sanity of your good friend and one of Belgium's finest. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 30 July , 2006 Share Posted 30 July , 2006 Ladies and Gents If you want 12/HLI war diary for the appropriate dates I would be happy to look in the next few days. Mike S Mike, Yes please, that would certainly add something........I suspect the only other information that will really help is if (when) anything comes back from CWGC. Jacky, even if the crosses to the three men whose names can be made out were memorials, as Neil has said there are still the other 20 plus crosses in the row - and the fact that row lines up with the rows behind, surely these (or the majority at least) were graves, not memorial markers? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 30 July , 2006 Share Posted 30 July , 2006 Now suppose those 3 non standard crosses were all 'memorial crosses' and not grave markers: problem(s) would be solved. Gardiner (and possibly NCO's and man), Cobbold on the Menin Gate as missed and Torrome orginally buried at Poelkapelle. Thinking of it: much to simple to be true but who knows. Jacky Jacky, Just re-read your post more carefully - Poelcapelle was a post-war concentration cemetery, so Torrome couldn't have been buried there originally - and wasn't Poelcapelle in German hands anyway when Torrome and Bold were killed, 19th April 1916? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 30 July , 2006 Share Posted 30 July , 2006 I knew it ! I knew it !!! Sooner or later Jacky P. would emerge, and this would be : Trouble in the Air. And to think of it that pals care about MY sanity ! Jacky, All I can say : don't know. 3 memorial crosses ? Maybe a bit unlikely, but what about, as Neil pointed out, the other 20 odd crosses in that row... Mike, Yes please, the War Diary of 12/HLI would come in handy. I may have a look into the Reg. Hist. in Ypres next Wednesday, but the War Diary of course would be better. (Now that I think of it, I think Sabine mentioned that a contact of hers had already informed her that ... nothing is filled in for 31/7/17, not even casualties ! That maybe between end July and beginning of August there was a new diary writer, different handwriting, and that 31/7 somehow was skipped !) Neil, I think I understand what you say about the lay-out having been changed. But I can't draw any conclusions from it... As to Gardiner's cross being only a memorial cross. I just don't know what to think of it anymore. Are these Memorial crosses exceptional ? And in how far does the text "(In) Loving (Memory) of X and NCOs & men etc." suggest it is a memorial, and not a grave marker ? Are there similar examples ? With regard to this same cross, just a few thoughts, but I don't know whether they will add anything to this discussion. I think we can agree that this row and the whole Plot II was moved there from the surrounding battlefield(s) post Armistice. (Oterwise, how can Gardiner and Torrome and Cobbold be neighbours ?) The photo of the Gardiner row was taken in 1919. Correct ? (1918-19 cannot possibly mean it was taken in 1918, nor 1920, and the misprint 1919-18 doesn't change that.) The Gardiner cross (and also the Cobbold cross) are damaged. This damage cannot have occurred in the period when the crosses were planted there post Armistice till the photo was taken (a year or less ? too short, and ther was no shelling). So the damage (by shelling) must have been caused some time between 31 July 1917 - end of the War. Which means that Gardiner's Memorial Cross or Gravemarker must have come from a battlefield burial place or cemetery nearby. That's all very nice, but ... I don't know what to do with this. (And I refuse to think further caring too much for my sanity.) Something else. Neil wondered whether Gardiner was "the only officier to die that day along with NCOs and men" of 12th Bn. HLI. I think we can say he was. This is what I found with SDGW (and Officers) - Men (privates) : 9 (Connor, Ewan, Greenwood, M()cKenzie, McVicar, Moore, Symyngton, Watters, White) - NC0's : 1 (CSM Wood(s) - Officer : Gardiner. He was attached to 12th HLI. (Three more officers were mentioned, Duncan, Stafford, Bennie, but they were 10th and 5th Bn) (By the way, is NCO's (plural form) a problem ? There was only 1.) Well, again, I 'm not sure I know what to do with this, but maybe someone else knows ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabine72 Posted 30 July , 2006 Author Share Posted 30 July , 2006 hello, I have been at the cemetery this morning, what I saw is that there are many man burried there who died on the 31/07/1917. So that must mean something. Was there a big fight in the area, So The others like the Leinster regiment or the king's liverpool regiment should have war diaries too?. could we find something in there unit books or wardiaries? Just thinking, this might not be a good idea, I don't know but isn't it wurth to try? I also thought of the 3 graves with 2 unknown soldiers in it. I did see on the postcard( in the row behind cobbold) a grave with two names on it. I told this in a ealier post. the names I did not find in the graveyard this morning. sabine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 30 July , 2006 Share Posted 30 July , 2006 1. what I saw is that there are many man burried there who died on the 31/07/1917. So that must mean something. Was there a big fight in the area, 2. So The others like the Leinster regiment or the king's liverpool regiment should have war diaries too?. could we find something in there unit books or wardiaries? 3. I also thought of the 3 graves with 2 unknown soldiers in it. I did see on the postcard( in the row behind cobbold) a grave with two names on it. I told this in a ealier post. the names I did not find in the graveyard this morning. Sabine, 1. Nice understatement. First day of Third Ypres (Battle of Pilkem Ridge). I think you can say the busiest day in the Great War in the Ypres Salient. 2. The war diaries of 7/8th King's Own Scottish Borderers, of 10/11th HLI, and 10th Scottish Rifles certainly would be interesting too. For they were in the same brigade (the 46th) as 12/HLI (which as I said before were not active on 31 July 1917) 3. Yes, I remember, but I was not sure I understood, and didn't understand which row you meant. I think you mentioned a Russell and a Jones, so when I was there yesterday I looked but could not find them. I also looked at the list Terry Denham posted in an eralier posting yesterday afternoon, and didn't find them there either. So you mean that in the present Row A there is a headstone "Unknown", of which you say that on the postcard you can see the names Russell and Jones ? And can you read more ? (I want to see if their names are in CWGC database, and where they are buried or commemorated now.) That would be interesting ! I suppose you mean Row A grave 17 ? Yes, that is a grave with 2 Unknowns I find in my notes. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 30 July , 2006 Share Posted 30 July , 2006 Alan, Completely agree with your point of view on Torrome. Now wouldn't it be interesting to have a broader view of the casualties of the 12th HLI for a certain period. For instance 15/07/1917 to 15/08/1917. Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 30 July , 2006 Share Posted 30 July , 2006 Sabine, So you mean that in the present Row A there is a headstone "Unknown", of which you say that on the postcard you can see the names Russell and Jones ? And can you read more ? (I want to see if their names are in CWGC database, and where they are buried or commemorated now.) That would be interesting ! I suppose you mean Row A grave 17 ? Yes, that is a grave with 2 now Unknowns I find in my notes. Aurel Sabine, I think your name V. Jones R... Engineers is : Victor Harold JONES, 2nd Corporal Royal Engineers Fallen on 30 Sept 1917. He has no grave, but is commemorated on one of the panels on Tyne Cot Cemetery ! So we have another one that had a grave, and probably is buried beneath II.A.17, but not officially registered as such, and only a name on a memorial ! It looks you have identified an Unknown ? This is getting exciting. 5Maybe I am getting too enthusiastic, or mentally insane. Could you confirm that what you see on your postcard is indeed that man ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 30 July , 2006 Share Posted 30 July , 2006 Now wouldn't it be interesting to have a broader view of the casualties of the 12th HLI for a certain period. For instance 15/07/1917 to 15/08/1917. Jacky Jacky, Simple question : why ? Anyway, SDGW says : 41 men, 1 officer in that period. I have printed them out. What do you want me to do ? For each and every one of these 42 where they have a grave of are commemorated ? Do you think I have nothing else to do ? This is Sunday afternoon, the only day in the week I can take an afternoon off ! Besides, I am retired ! Aurel P.S. By the way, as to the identification of an Unknown as a Victor Jones (see my previous posting), I may have been a bit too enthusiastic indeed. Sure when the headstones were set IWGC may have discovered that there was no way this could possibly be Victor Jones R.E. 30/9/1917 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 30 July , 2006 Share Posted 30 July , 2006 Aurel, An afternoon off! You must be dreaming Just for what it is worth some numbers: 21/07/: 1 (Menin Road South) 22/07/: - 23/07/: 9 (Menin Gate) 24/07/: - 25/07/: 2 (Lyssenthoek 1 (Vlamertinghe New Military) 3 (Menin Gate) 26/07/: - 27/07/: 3 (Ypres Reservoir) 28/07/: 1 (Menin Gate) 29/07/: - 30/07/: - 31/07/: 1 (Aeroplane) 1 (Brandhoek New Military) 1 (Potijze Chateau Grounds) 8 (Menin gate) 01/08/: 6 (Menin gate) 02/08/: 1 (Brandhoek New Military) 2 (Menin gate) 03/08/: 1 (Brandhoek New Military) 05/08/: 1 (Mendighem) This could possibly hold the clue for the kind of action they were involved in: pioneerwork? reconnaissance?. In my opinion these figures almost certainly makes the cross of Gardiner a Memorial cross as it is in plularized form: NCO's and Man Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 30 July , 2006 Share Posted 30 July , 2006 Jacky, You may be one year older than I am but you are certainly fast acting. Taken an extra dose of testosteron ? Pioneer work, reconnaissance ? Possible. I see 31/7 was the most fatal day in 1 month. strange that there is not even mention of casualties on that day in the War diaries (as I think Sabine indirectly informed me.) OK, you have worked very hard today, you can take the rest of the day off. Your Lady (mind the capital L) will appreciate ! Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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