sabine72 Posted 3 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 3 August , 2006 hello, I guess you are all waiting for me. I got the large photo scan (30x45cm) of the postcard . A lot to tell but I first have to make dinner, figure out then how to scan that big thing so you all can see it. Give me an hour or so and I'll be back. You can clearly see the diamond thing, and that there are some graves between the first row and the second. And if we get lucky a few more names. sabine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 3 August , 2006 Share Posted 3 August , 2006 I guess you are all waiting for me.... A lot to tell but I first have to make dinner.... Give me an hour or so and I'll be back... Such a tease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 3 August , 2006 Share Posted 3 August , 2006 Does that mean that between Row A* (disappeared) and Row A there may have been a mini-row, consisting of at least 2 crosses, I hadn't seen that, but it looks as though there are two crosses planted between A* and A. Oh, good heavens........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 3 August , 2006 Share Posted 3 August , 2006 And then the Forum has a 3 hour holiday! The SUSPENSE! Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 3 August , 2006 Share Posted 3 August , 2006 Steve, Suspense ? Suspense ? What suspense ? But of course it's easy for me to say. For 3 hours ago I saw Sabine's enlarged photo (size A3) with my own eyes ! The result ? Suspense ! Suspense !! Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 3 August , 2006 Share Posted 3 August , 2006 Suspense ? Suspense ? What suspense ? But of course it's easy for me to say. For 3 hours ago I saw Sabine's enlarged photo (size A3) with my own eyes ! The result ? Suspense ! Suspense !! Aurel You can go off Belgians you know!! Neil P.S. Not really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 3 August , 2006 Share Posted 3 August , 2006 Sabine is great. She has e-mailed me a couple of bits of the new, enlarged, high resolution scan. As a result, as I look across the now legendary row we have christened A*, I can read.........absolutely nothing more than the first time. Aurel - I gather you may have had more luck with the original? I hope so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 3 August , 2006 Share Posted 3 August , 2006 OK. But prepare yourselves for a disappointment.... Together with Sabine this evening (while there were Forum problems) I studied the enhanced photo, even with a magnifying glass. And I must say, not really successfully. To be honest, I had taken a realistic (= pessimistic) view on that before already. I had not really hoped that ... Anyway, I scanned two parts of it, small ones, near the right side of the postcard. At 900 dpi. (Sorry, I don't have a high capacity scanner, and more might have caused it to explode.) I cannot say that the scan produces more readability than the original enhancement, with or without a magnifying glass. However, and to make matters worse, I had to resize the scan below from 800 kB to a little less than 100 kB, to get it on the forum. So I guess this means loss of quality ? But should you think that with my original of 800 kB you will manage to see more on your PC, just let me know off Forum what your email address is. I have already emailed this photo to Alan, and right now he must be examining it. Alan, for some technical reason that I do not understand, my PC obstinately refuses to cut out part of the other photo I sent you, the one with that half buried cross. Could you cut out that part of my scan, only the cross itself, and post it ? Pals will see that there is some lettering on it, but in my opinion impossible to read. Sabine can scan too, but she won't find the time to do that before Saturday afternoon I think she said. She has a better scanner and knowing that she should focus on pecific crosses, her results may be better quality. After she had left with her photo I realized that I had forgotten to ... scan a detail I am most interested in : the double cross (nailed together) in the front row. With a magnifying glass however I am sure that I read as one of the two names : V. Jones Royal Pioneers. However I think that there was an initial before the V. And I have some problems with "Royal Pioneers". No doubt about that, but ... that is part of Royal Engineers I suppose ? I have tried to find a (?) V. Jones, R.E., on CWGC on line and SDGW, one that could be our man. But unsuccessfully. (There is an E.V. Jones, R.E., 21/10/17, but ... he is buried at Bedford House Cemetery. And there is a Victor Hugo Jones, R.E., 30/9/17, on the Tyne Cot Memorial, but Victor Hugo is not Hugo Victor ... Sorry if you all had expected better news from Flanders Fields ... Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 3 August , 2006 Share Posted 3 August , 2006 Sadly, having looked at the two scans Aurel sent me, I have to agree - nothing else can be read . As I suggested in a PM, perhaps the resolution of photographs or the printing process 80 years ago was just not good enough, and whatever we do we will not see details as they are not there. I do think there is lettering to be made out on the half-buried cross, but again I don't think individual letters can be determined - but here is the buried cross, again much reduced in order to fit the <100K file size limit. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 3 August , 2006 Share Posted 3 August , 2006 Aurel - if possible would you be willing to send the scans you have sent to Alan to me as well? Your scans seem to highlight things a little more clearly. I've been playing with the broken cross but like you I have not had much luck. However, there is something on it and this is the best definition I can get. I've one or two thoughts, but they are mainly guesses. Can anyone else see anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 3 August , 2006 Share Posted 3 August , 2006 Anything here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinglma Posted 3 August , 2006 Share Posted 3 August , 2006 Hello I looked at Gardiner's service record today. The only reference to burial that I could see was on the field service report of the death of an officer - this states Rank - 2nd Lieutenant Name - Gardiner F.T. By whom reported - OC Battalion Date of Death - 31-7-17 Place or Hospital - Belgium Cause of Death - Killed in Action Place of Burial - Not Known This form is dated 11-8-17. I have photographed the service record - minus some 'dry' financial details regarding his estate. The service record includes Attestation papers. If anyone wants a copy let me know and I will post it either here or on my website. All the best Mike S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 3 August , 2006 Share Posted 3 August , 2006 Mike, Thanks for looking at the service record, it's appreciated I'm sure by all who read this thread. A shame it looks like another dead end. We are running out of avenues here, unless someone else can see anything on Aurel's scans. We really need something from CWGC, if there is anything at all - either on Gardiner or Torrome specifically or else on Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery more generally. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 3 August , 2006 Share Posted 3 August , 2006 Mike, Thanks for taking the time to look and copy the details. It is proving to be a day of disappointments! Nevertheless, I would still be interested to see his records, simply because his cause has become quite personal to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 3 August , 2006 Share Posted 3 August , 2006 Possibly a Eureka moment - I will let you decide. CV Jones of the 16 Battalion Royal Irish Rifles. What makes me think it was him:- 1. He died on 31/7/1917 - the same day as Mr Gardiner 2. The 16th battalion was the Pioneer Battalion to the 36 Ulster Division - thanks to Chris's site. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 3 August , 2006 Share Posted 3 August , 2006 (edited) With a magnifying glass however I am sure that I read as one of the two names : V. Jones Royal Pioneers. However I think that there was an initial before the V. And I have some problems with "Royal Pioneers". No doubt about that, but ... that is part of Royal Engineers I suppose ? I have tried to find a (?) V. Jones, R.E., on CWGC on line and SDGW, one that could be our man. But unsuccessfully. (There is an E.V. Jones, R.E., 21/10/17, but ... he is buried at Bedford House Cemetery. And there is a Victor Hugo Jones, R.E., 30/9/17, on the Tyne Cot Memorial, but Victor Hugo is not Hugo Victor ... As Alan says all the doors appear to beclosing, but a few thoughts on Aurel's comments above: a '?. V. Jones' and 'Pioneers'. How about this chap? Same day as Gardiner, and the 16th RIR were a Pioneer battalion. Were they anywhere nearby on the day? Name: JONES, CECIL VICTOR Rank: Rifleman Regiment/Service: Royal Irish Rifles Unit Text: 16th Bn. Age: 27 Date of Death: 31/07/1917 Service No: 44535 Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 40. Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL Nice one Neil - beat me to it by 2 minutes! Edited 3 August , 2006 by Andrew Hesketh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 3 August , 2006 Share Posted 3 August , 2006 Andrew Great minds think alike!! Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 3 August , 2006 Share Posted 3 August , 2006 Last check before I go to bed...... If this is the correct Jones (and there are a lot of them to choose from), then the fact he is commemorated on the Menin Gate would add weight to the 'row was never graves, but grave markers' theory, which I have to say I personally favour strongly. Ermmmm, that is, if Jones was in row A* - I've lost track of which row this grave (or grave marker) was in? If it was in row A, then I'll shut up - it doesn't support it at all. If it was in the "new" small row, row A** identified by Aurel, ( ), then it could still support the theory. I'm definitely going to bed now..................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 3 August , 2006 Share Posted 3 August , 2006 a '?. V. Jones' and 'Pioneers'. How about this chap? Same day as Gardiner, and the 16th RIR were a Pioneer battalion. Were they anywhere nearby on the day? Name: JONES, CECIL VICTOR Andrew / Neil, Yes, that man is on my list of Jones's too. I have 5 so far, but only mentioned two in my post (E.V. Jones and Victor Hugo Jones). But then I didn't know about 16th Royal Irish Rifles being a Pioneer Battalion. So "Royal Pioneer" does not mean that the man was a Royal Engineer ? Well, it looks like this man on the Menin Gate ... Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 3 August , 2006 Share Posted 3 August , 2006 Alan, ... V. Jones was in Row A* Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 3 August , 2006 Share Posted 3 August , 2006 Maybe Sabine was right after all when she said she thought to see the name RUSSELL. For knowing that a certain ... V. Jones was in the 16th Bn. R.I.R. (a Pioneer Battalion), I checked SDGW to see if on that same day 31/7/17 a man was killed in that Bn. with a name that looked a bit like Russell. And ... there is a John Russell ! And his name is on the ... Menin Gate Mem. ! RUSSELL, JOHN Rank: Corporal Regiment/Service: Royal Irish Rifles Unit Text: 16th Bn. Age: 28 Date of Death: 31/07/1917 Service No: 13322 Additional information: Husband of Jane Russell, of Killearn, Newtownards, Co. Down. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 40. Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL Conclusion ? Well, that's for you. Off to bed. 1.35 a.m. Belgian time ! Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinglma Posted 3 August , 2006 Share Posted 3 August , 2006 Nevertheless, I would still be interested to see his records, simply because his cause has become quite personal to me. Andrew No problem - let me pull the photos together and I'll make them available to you (one way or another) Regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auimfo Posted 4 August , 2006 Share Posted 4 August , 2006 Well, It looks as though we've managed to definately identify two 16th Bn Royal Irish Rifles in Row A* and both commemorated on the Menin Gate. I must admit that the case for being memorials only seems to be holding sway but I just don't think Alan's photo indicates that at all. And it seems such an odd way of organizing them. Oh and by the way, the two crosses in A** (Aurel's row) appear to be at the foot of graves in Row A that have a personally made cross. I think the basic timber crosses were the originals and when friends/comrades made a new cross the old one was just stuck into the ground at the foot of the grave. Tim L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auimfo Posted 4 August , 2006 Share Posted 4 August , 2006 Alan, Got the scans. I think you'd have to be a magician to decipher anything from that. Tim L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 4 August , 2006 Share Posted 4 August , 2006 Rank - 2nd Lieutenant Strangely on his papers his rank is 2nd Lieutenant. What could this mean ?. Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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