a soldier who used to have a grave

[ian turner]

First, my thanks to all for the much running around and scanning activity. Still frustratingly close but not close enough for clear reading!

Was there any enlightment on the famous end of row A* sign?

Ian

[ian turner]

You can almost read it....

Surely playing around with the original scan something can be seen? In the movies the CIA can always make a clear image from some grainy blurrs!

Ian

[Andrew Hesketh]

Strangely on his papers his rank is 2nd Lieutenant. What could this mean ?.

Errrrr.....

Tim, I'm not sure we've definitely got two 16th RIR's on row A*. But we've definitely got two possible 16th RIR's on Row A*.

Where were they on the 31st?

Here we go again.

[Aurel Sercu]

Andrew,

Where they were ? Yesterday night (half past one !) I really didn't have the energy to check and went (sneaked) to my bed. (Hoping that a voice from the other side of my bed would not unkindly ...)

Meanwhile I see that Neil had already pointed out : 36th (Ulster) Division. McCarthy does not mention 16/RIR (only 1/ and 7/RIR). Anyway, 36 Div. was in the area indeed. Only, if McCarthy is correct not until 3 Aug., when they relieved 55th Div. And Cecil Victor Jones and John Russell fell on 31/7. (Which does not mean that this is a real problem. McCarthy didn't mention 12/HLI being near Potijze on 31/7 either ! So maybe 16/RIR were there already on 31/7)

Let's not forget that there definitely is a 16 on the left arm of the cross. Sabine and I did not manage to read what was following the 16 though. Now that we know it could be R.I.R., Sabine, could you have a look at the postcard or the enlargement, with a magnifying glass, again ? Does it look like RIR or RIRifles or so ?

Another thing. Not relevant to me, but maybe to someone else. Still about that double cross (one larger part nailed to the back of the standard cross). You may have noticed that there is something, a piece of wood, right in the centre of the white cross. (That's where the names V. Victor and Russell (?) can be read on on the enlargement.) That piece of wood in my opinion is half of a "shield", the left half being broken off. (That's where the top of the standard cross is.) I think I see a similar "shield" on a cross in the row behind, Row A. It is the cross right of G.H. Jones (when watching it.) However I'm not sure, for that cross is partly hidden by a tall standard cross in A**. There is a close up of that part in one of my previous postings (yesterday night.)

I know that that cross with the shield is : J. Howdon, Durham Light Infantry, and fallen 27 April 1915. (Yes, I know, more than 2 years before V. Jones and Russell(?), and DLI is not RIR.)

My question : does such a shield have some significance ? Typical of something ?

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

1. It looks as though we've managed to definately identify two 16th Bn Royal Irish Rifles in Row A* and both commemorated on the Menin Gate.

2. I must admit that the case for being memorials only seems to be holding sway but I just don't think Alan's photo indicates that at all. And it seems such an odd way of organizing them.

3. Oh and by the way, the two crosses in A** (Aurel's row) appear to be at the foot of graves in Row A that have a personally made cross. I think the basic timber crosses were the originals and when friends/comrades made a new cross the old one was just stuck into the ground at the foot of the grave.

Tim,

1. As I pointed out in a previous posting, let's not be overenthusiastic. (Maybe I was myself last night, but I always am after midnight. Too much testosteron in my veins. I would perform magnificently in Morzine !) There are arguments to support this, but there are other counterarguments as well. (Where was 16/RIR on 31/7/17 ? Maybe next Wednesday in the Ypres Doc. Centre. And now that I think of it, maybe I have a digital version of Fall's History of RIR in my PC ? I'll see after this.)

2. The case of row A* being memorials, only gravemarkers, and no real graves holding sway ? Mmmm. I myself am not convinced (yet).

3. Thank God you noticed ! Problem gone. One Missing Row is more than enough, even if the other one (A**) is only "mini".

Whether you are right, I don't know. Actually I would think the opposite : that the white personally made crosses were planted there when the remains were taken to Potijze Chateau Grounds Cem Plot 2, the crosses probably coming from where the remains had originally been buried in the area. And then the standard crosses were planted later. At the foot of the grave, as you say.

And yet ... Somehow I think the new standard crosses should not have been planted at the foot, but close to the larger personally made crosses.

Jacky Platteeuw has a nice example of that (a postcard in colour (added colour that is) of Kemmel Chateau Cem. Of course, the arrangement used at Kemmel does not necessarily have to be the same at Potijze. (And if Jacky posts his postcard here, this might open a totally new discussion. For names are visible on his card too ! And intriguing ! So, Jacky, don't !

Anyway, these are only details, Tim, and I do accept that the 2 crosses in what I called A** are the names of the larger crosses behind them. And these graves are :

G.H. Jones, DoCLI (12/8/17) and J.T. Howdon, DLI (27/4/15).

Aurel

[John_Hartley]

Mike,

Thanks for taking the time to look and copy the details. It is proving to be a day of disappointments!

Not necessarily. Doesnt the reference that Mike has found lend support to the idea that Gardiner never had a known grave. It is also relevent that there is no post-war reference to his body being moved.

John

[sabine72]

hello,

On lunch break at my brother's computer.

here we go.

I will order other high resolution scans and let them make smaller digital photos, then mail them to andrew at his po box at home(andrew mail me your adress) ,and the pal of australia too.(home adress at my email adress please)

See what they can see on it or do with it.

Then my sister in law offered to help to use a microscope for the original postcard (only able to do that between 21/08/06and 24/08/06).

and now lunch

see you all tonight

sabine

[Jacky Platteeuw]

Beneath a list of 16th Bn. Royal Irish Rifles between 15/07/1917 and 15/08/1917. Haven't been able to look at it in depth but at first sight it tends towards the fact that most of the row has possibly been made as 'commemorative'. Except for Torrome and possible others, naturally.

DICKEBUSCH NEW MILITARY CEMETERY EXTENSION, Belgium

GIBSON, Rifleman, SAMUEL, 6881, No.1 Coy. 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. , Killed in action 25 July 1917. Age 25. Son of Joseph and Agnes Gibson, of Ballygowan, Belfast. Grave Ref. I. B. 9.

MENABNEY, Rifleman, JAMES, 436, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. 26 July 1917. Age 20. Son of John Menabney, of 3, New St., Lurgan. Grave Ref. I. B. 8.

DIVISIONAL CEMETERY, Belgium

HULL, Rifleman, J, 541, No. 3 Coy., 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. 31 July 1917. Age 21. Son of Mr. and Mrs. David Hull, of 49, Harfield St., Belfast. Grave Ref. J. 2.

STANFORD, Rifleman, ALFRED THOMAS, 45028, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. , Killed in action 31 July 1917. Age 19. Son of John Thomas and Charlotte Stanford, of 102, Berwick Rd., Victoria Docks, London. Grave Ref. J. 4.

WEIR, Corporal, J, 234, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. 31 July 1917. Age 23. Son of William Weir, of Gargory, Ballyward, Banbridge, Co. Down. Grave Ref. J. 3.

MENDINGHEM MILITARY CEMETERY, Belgium

BELL, Company Serjeant Major, A, 220, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. 1 August 1917. Grave Ref. III. E. 7.

POPERINGHE NEW MILITARY CEMETERY, Belgium

GRIMASON, Rifleman, J, 456, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. 26 July 1917. Age 37. Son of William and Mary Grimason, of Ballyknock, Tandragee, Co. Armagh. Grave Ref. II. E. 35.

JAGOE, Second Lieutenant, CHARLES BATEMAN, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. , Killed in action 26 July 1917. Age 23. Son of William and Eva M. Jagoe, of Jagoe's Mills, Kinsale, Co. Cork. Grave Ref. II. E. 37.

MARTIN, Rifleman, HERBERT, 6395, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. 26 July 1917. Age 24. Son of Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Martin, of Belfast. Grave Ref. II. E. 36.

TYNE COT CEMETERY, Belgium

BENNETT, Rifleman, M A, 44502, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. 31 July 1917. Grave Ref. LVIII. D. 35.

VLAMERTINGHE NEW MILITARY CEMETERY, Belgium

MUDE, Rifleman, LEONARD, 44663, 2nd Coy. 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. , Killed in action 3 August 1917. Age 25. Son of Samuel Joseph Henry and Rose Mude, of 37, Leamington Road Villas, Bayswater, London. Grave Ref. VI. B. 7.

OGLE, Rifleman, C, 1074, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. 3 August 1917. Age 37. Son of James and Ellen Ogle; husband of Catherine Ogle, of Coolsallagh, Dromore, Co. Down. Native of Dromore. Grave Ref. VI. B. 5.

RYDON, Rifleman, ALBERT EDWARD, 44558, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. , Killed in action 3 August 1917. Age 19. Son of Hannah and the late Joseph James Rydon, of 31, Selwyn Avenue, Highams Park, Chingford, London. Native of London. Grave Ref. VI. B. 6.

WHITE HOUSE CEMETERY, Belgium

ENGLISH, Rifleman, J, 155, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. 1 August 1917. Grave Ref. III. C. 6.

WIELTJE FARM CEMETERY, Belgium

JOHNSTON, Rifleman, H, 538, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. 11 August 1917. Grave Ref. A. 1.

YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL, Belgium

ALEXANDER, Rifleman, WILLIAM, 432, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. 11 August 1917. Age 40. Husband of Annie J. Alexander, of Blackskull, Dromore, Co. Down. Panel 40.

BARKER, Rifleman, GEORGE, 6722, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. 31 July 1917. Age 23. Son of Maria Barker, of 8, Roundhill St., Mount Pottinger, Belfast, and the late George Barker. Panel 40.

BARRON, Rifleman, ROBERT JAMES, 1159, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. 11 August 1917. Panel 40.

CAMPBELL, Rifleman, COLIN, 1076, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. 31 July 1917. Age 23. Son of John and Isobel Campbell, of 63, Surrey St., Lisburn Rd., Belfast. Panel 40.

HAMILTON, Rifleman, SAMUEL, 5, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. 31 July 1917. Panel 40.

JONES, Rifleman, CECIL VICTOR, 44535, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. 31 July 1917. Age 27. Son of G. R. Jones, of 271, The Broadway, West Hendon, London; husband of Sybil Bedford Jones, of 2, High Rd., Burnt Oak, Edgware, Middx. Panel 40.

NELSON, Rifleman, ROBERT, 1157, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. 11 August 1917. Age 42. Husband of Mrs. J. E. Nelson, of 2, Dickson St., Belfast. Panel 40.

PUTNAM, Rifleman, CHARLES, 44550, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. 31 July 1917. Age 39. Son of the late Mary Putnam, husband of Florence J. Chambers (formerly Putnam), of 146, Nightingale Buildings, St. John's Wood, London. Panel 40.

RUSSELL, Corporal, JOHN, 13322, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. 31 July 1917. Age 28. Husband of Jane Russell, of Killearn, Newtownards, Co. Down. Panel 40.

SADLER, Rifleman, THOMAS DALRYMPLE, 44566, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. 31 July 1917. Age 19. Son of Christopher Dalrymple Sadler and Fanny Rose Sadler, of 121, Castleton Rd., Goodmayes, Essex. Panel 40.

YPRES RESERVOIR CEMETERY, Belgium

SANLON, Rifleman, W, 983, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. 11 August 1917. Grave Ref. IV. C. 23.

ETAPLES MILITARY CEMETERY, France

MILLWARD, Rifleman, HAROLD CHARLES ROBERT, 44544, 16th Bn., Royal Irish Rifles. , Died of wounds, received at Ypres 14 August 1917. Age 19. Son of Samuel and Florence Mary Millward, of Yew Tree House, Norton Green, Norton-le-Moors, Stoke-on-Trent, Staffs. Grave Ref. XXV. N. 17A.

[Jacky Platteeuw]

Hadn't seen Aurel's posting 345. In due time, after this 'potijze enigma' has been discussed, I will post the postcard with the actual situation.

Jacky

[Jacky Platteeuw]

A possible theory about Torrome: he was a POW who died during his captivity. First buried in an German Cem and reburied after the war in Poelcapelle.

Jacky

[Aurel Sercu]

Sabine,

And when using the microscope, don't forget (of course not) to focus on the double (nailed) cross. To find out if apart from V. Jones there is indeed a John (J.) Russell. And if what comes after "16" is something like RIR or RI Rifles. (Maybe even now already with a magnifying glass ?)

(To all. By the way, just checked C. Fall's history of the Royal Irish Rifles. No mention of 16th Bn. on 31/7/17. )

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

A possible theory about Torrome: he was a POW who died during his captivity. First buried in an German Cem and reburied after the war in Poelcapelle.

Jacky

Jacky,

Mmmm. Impossible of course to prove that this is impossible.

Yet, the day Torrome died (19/4/16) 14 other Scots Guards died. So : likely in a military action. (Of course, I know it's possible that Torrome having taken prisoner some time before, happened to die on that day. Of died the day he was taken prisoner. By the way, it looks like you support the "only gravemarkers but no graves" theory ? And that it was assumed that Torrome had fallen, and so a commemorative gravemarker was planted ? Maybe we should have a poll among the Topic Posters ? )

(By the way, 12 of these other Scots Guards are on the Menin Gate, 1 is at .. Poelkapelle British Cemetery (W. Bold)

Aurel

[ian turner]

Let me recap some of the main pointers so far considered, and which drift towards the 'markers only' theory:

Row A*

---------

Appears 'different' than the others when looking at the oldest photo, with earth flat in front of the markers.

Has an uneven set of crosses in each of its plots, unlike the actual burials behind, in Plot II.

Has a separate marker (so far illegible) at the end, and does not appear to be included in the area designated by the sign Plot II.

Plot II row A in the early 1920's pic is still today's Plot II row A.

Markers in row A* carry damage, unlike the standard markers in many

of the Plot II crosses. (IE. they suffered damage elsewhere).

Row A* is today non-existant, and it is hard to believe that the IWGC/CWGC would have simply ploughed over the site and lost the markers and then called them 'missing'?

Identified names in row A* today listed as missing

----------------------------------------------------------

Gardiner

Cobbold

Possibly C V Jones

Possibly Russell

Additional background info - Gardiner's service record does not contain burial details, and nor re-burial details. Both the record and the letters about his death do not know of where he was buried. We know he was killed by shellfire, which leads to the possibility of either his never having been buried, or his remains being small in quantity and subsequently impossible to identify at the time of post-war graveyard concentration. Or his original grave, likes the others, was lost but his marker found.

If they were all originally buried elsewhere on a battlefield site, it is possible their markers were found but their remains were lost. They may all have been shellfire victims, with scant remains identifiable for removal to a concentration site post-war.

It is believed that the IWGC did preserve markers pending a decision as to how to commemorate the missing.

Against the theory of 'markers only', or perhaps complicating the theory, is the burial of Torrome at Poelcapelle. This fact could be explained by subsequent identification of his remains and burial elsewhere, especially if Potizje Plot II (not including row A*) was complete by then. Or maybe all the ID'd remains from the original graveyard (where our missing row of markers came from) are all buried elsewhere (at Poelcapelle for example, but then why place the markers at Potizje?).

Row A* looks more like a plot of graves in the early 1920's photo. This could be explained as the gardeners tending the cemetery were treating the area like the rest of the site, and defining pathways between the rows for ease of access, thus making it appear to be a real plot in this old view.

I am thinking that whatever we find out about the names in our row, if indeed we can decipher any more, will not tell us too much, and that the answer may still lie with CWGC records.

Ian

[MelPack]

I may be missing the point here but if Torrome is the 'anomoly' wouldn't it be worthwhile checking whether his service records still exist in the Burnt Records?

A previous poster suggested that his body could have been lost and then subsequently identified.

Regards

Mel

[Roxy]

I think that someone needs to get a CSI button for their computer in order that those grainy photos come up nice and sharp.

Aargh.

Roxy

[ian turner]

I may be missing the point here but if Torrome is the 'anomoly' wouldn't it be worthwhile checking whether his service records still exist in the Burnt Records?

A previous poster suggested that his body could have been lost and then subsequently identified.

Mel - it was me.

Yes, it would indeed be useful to see his records, but I wonder if they would hold all his burial info? Perhaps other knowledgable pals would know if this is the case (same applies for Gardiner's records, which are fairly silent on his burial).

Ian

[Alan_J]

Doesnt the reference that Mike has found lend support to the idea that Gardiner never had a known grave. It is also relevent that there is no post-war reference to his body being moved.

John

John,

You've probably looked at more service records than I have, but I've come across several where the place of burial is recorded as "Not Known" but the soldier has a known grave. I have to admit, I wasn't looking at any correlation between whether these graves were in concentration cemeteries or wartime cemeteries - you could well be right. I would hope you are, because if there was a poll I'm in the "grave markers but not graves" camp!

Just need to clarify on another point - I have early (1919 or thereabouts) reports suggesting the possibility of having individual memorials to the missing in the cemetrey nearest to where they were last seen. I did look this up and one suggection was these be recorded on tablets on the walls (of structures built to house the registers, IIRC).

The actual decision to have Memorials to the Missing was taken a little later (I need to check this, but sometime in the early 1920s). It would have been the Army who concentrated the graves (and grave markers), then handed over to IWGC. It seems a logical assumption that they may have preserved grave markers they found, pending any decision, but I'm not sure we can say it's a fact yet.

Alan

[John_Hartley]

Alan

I agree my point is tenuous (but not more so, or less so, than some other speculations here). But the fact there is no documentary evidence is evidence in itself

- if his body had been moved, I would have thought there might well have been correspondence with the family to that effect. But who knows?

john

[ian turner]

John,

Where wold that post-war correspondence show up? In the service file or with CWGC files or in both?

Ian

[shinglma]

John

I tend to agree.

That his service record shows no known grave at 11 August 1917 is one thing. I would have imagined that

had his body subsequently been found and buried this would be reflected by a letter to his widow.

The service record is lengthy though largely concerned with his estate. I did not photograph some of the latter papers but still photographed 41 pages.

I notice that amongst his personal effects were two identity discs mentioned in a memo of 30 August 1917, but assume these were not recovered from his body but amongst his personal effects.

Mike

[shinglma]

Where wold that post-war correspondence show up? In the service file or with CWGC files or in both?

Ian

Ian

In the service records - burial was a military not IWGC task. Any correspondence regarding burial is usually found in an officer's service record if it exists.

Mike

[ian turner]

Mike,

Thanks. All the more reason to have a look at Pvte Torrome's records, provided they survived!

Ian

[Roxy]

Shinglma mentioned:

"I notice that amongst his personal effects were two identity discs mentioned in a memo of 30 August 1917, but assume these were not recovered from his body but amongst his personal effects."

Things may have changed in 90 years, but I would have expected a soldier to have his identity discs on his possesion. However, recovery of the discs does not imply recovery of a body.

Roxy

[shinglma]

Strangely on his papers his rank is 2nd Lieutenant. What could this mean ?.

Jacky

Jacky

I've only had a quick look at this service record but he is referred to as 2/Lt throughout the paperwork following his death - with one exception where 2/Lt has been crossed out and Captain entered.

Mike S

[Alan_J]

Alan

I agree my point is tenuous (but not more so, or less so, than some other speculations here). But the fact there is no documentary evidence is evidence in itself

- if his body had been moved, I would have thought there might well have been correspondence with the family to that effect. But who knows?

john

John,

I do tend to agree with you; as I said above it would support the explanation I favour as well. I certainly would agree that if the body was buried, then moved somewhere later after the war then there might well be correspondance - and especially if the man had been buried in one cemetery, and then moved to another.

My point was really that when completeing the forms, shortly after a soldier was killed, the information on where buried may not have been available and so "Not Known" was put down. This might be particularly true after major offensives when there would have been many casualties and the state of affairs might be confused, which could have been the case here.

Alan