Aurel Sercu Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 Inspired by some of the preceding postings... So far I have always thought, since CWGC register says that Plot 2 is post Armistice, that Row A*, not being Plot 2, is NOT post Armistice. However, I think I am beginning to change my view. Now I am beginning to believe that Row A* too was laid out there together with the rows behind it (now Plot 2. Rows A - G). That they too were brought in from the battlefields. (I know, this is nothing new, but until some time ago I had a problem accepting that.) But these crosses were special. That they were not really graves, but only crosses coming from the battlefields nearby, crosses of graves where the remains could not be found back. (I know, nothing new so far I guess.) This might explain that special sign near A*1. Something may have been written on it saying more or less the same as what I have just written. This might also explain that on Sabine's photo (1919) the earth in front of the rows that we can see is different : the earth in front of rows A etc. is higher, whereas in front of Row A* it is not disturbed (no need to, since there had not to be dug, as it was not meant to contain remains. Let me also point to the fact that the crosses in A*, certainly the first 10 crosses, in Alan's photo (1920 ? ; somewhere he has posted a fragment of that photo, where he marked Gardiner and Jones, are not standard crosses, not the type as in the other rows behind it. These crosses A*1-10 look broader (and also in a rather irregular line). A problem however is : how can it be explained, in Alan's photo, that the earth in front of A* looks as if something had been done to it (either higher, or with vegetation, and with a narrow path between the 3 sets of 10 or fewer crosses.) As if they look like real graves... I realize that some of the things I have just written are elements picked from previous postings, and are not really new. I just want to bring some elements together for myself. And would like to hear if somewhere and somehow I am making a mistake. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 I am reluctant to do this but I am convinced that the last word on the right hand side of the double cross is Pitkin. I also hasten to add that the image may have been degraded so many times that it has ended up as an optical illusion. Regards Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 Mel, Had a quick look at CWGC - no Pitkin buried or commemorated in this area - either UK or France. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 This is my very last attempt. And if not successful, then I will keep quiet about this. I think. Here we go. C.V. Jones is very probably one of the 2 names on the shield. Correct ? He was 16th Bn. Royal Irish Rifles. Which was a Pioneer Battalion. That's 2 facts. Knowing this, this may be the unit on the arms of the cross. (I know some of you will say : and that is wishful thinking from your part. I ignore that. ) For me the first "letters" on the left arm is 16. Not I.G. Too close to each other. Right after that there seems to be soming in superscript (don't know if this is the correct word). Could be TH. ROYAL ? OK, that's not clear. Certainly beginning with an R though, and the last letter can be an L, smaller font than R. There is a vertical stripe in the middle of that word. Dirt it is. It certainly is not part of a letter, for the top of it is too high. Rust ? Bird dropping ? Anyway, it makes it hard to read the OYA. What a pity. IRISH. I see a tall I, and then the following letters, in smaller font RIS The last letter an H ? It seems only the horizontal part of the H is visible, the two vertical stripes of the H not or hardly visible. Knowing what regiment C.V.Victor was in, one can expect to find the rest ("RIFLES") on the cross too. Has to ! For ROYAL IRISH would mean : "Royal Irish REGIMENT" (an abreviation of Royal Irish Regiment is R.I.), and we are dealing with the Rifles here, aren't we. And I really don't believe it is my imagination, but for me the first word on the right arm is RIFLES (R in a larger font). And as to PIONEERS. Well, I have already mentioned my magnifying glass. For me, as soon as I was convinced that if there is 16(th) ROYAL IRISH RIFLES on it, I can hardly try to see a name of a soldier in the last word on the right arm. Not Pitkin, not Pekin, not ... But let's all agree that we all have a right to disagree. ;-) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 I have been trying to make a case for this cross to belong to James Pekin, in a similar manner to Aurel's ideas above. James Pekin - service number 661A - you can see a 6, possibly more than once on the left-hand bar. The first '6' , if that is what it is, has an almost straight tail over the 'o' part, whereas the second '6' has a curved tail (like the font in this posting). I am not sure the first symbol is in fact a '6', and I can only guess what else it might be. I think it is a partly erased symbol rather than a real '6' What would we expect to see if it was James Pekin? 'Pvte 661A' on one bar and 'James Pekin' on the other? What if the first '6' is in fact the upright stroke of a capital 'P' and the top part of the curve still in place but the rest of the letter obscured? Then beneath it the first part of an 'R'? I attach a hand-written example, with the missing parts as dotted lines. Now the half- badge: James Pekin was 22Bn AIF, late 2nd Cyclist. Could the larger letters in the bottom row be: (part of letter C) yclist ? The first clear letter looks like a 'Y' when enlarged, and I can believe I see 'clist' thereafter. However it is all a leap of faith, as whatever interpertations we make, the image still remains too feint to make a positive ID Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auimfo Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 Aurel, I agree with you completely. Earlier today (before you'd posted your thoughts) I had another long look at the cross and also came to the conclusion it said "16th Royal Irish" and "Rifles Pioneers" but I didn't have time to post it until now. In a way I'm glad I didn't because now I know my thoughts didn't influence what you've seen. Strange how we have both reached the same result at about the same time and after so long. Perhaps it's a case of great minds thinking alike! And let me tell you.....when I finally manage to visit the battlefields, I'm going to make sure I visit Potijze and then straight to the nearest pub to clear my head. Anyone want to join me? Tim L. P.S. Ian, Sorry I can't go with Pekin. I just can't see it myself and the details of his burial would suggest otherwise. Although I can't positively discount your theory, it just seems that the 16th RIR men makes more sense and have some supporting evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 Tim, Was the nearest pub built as a memorial, or converted to be a memorial-pub? Who cares, as long as the beer is cold! Cheers, Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auimfo Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 Ian, As long as it's there and hasn't been relocated! Tim L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auimfo Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 And here's some stats for everyone regarding this thread. I pulled out the calculator and did some math comparing this thread to the the famous 'Grandpa's Trunk' and 'Diggers at Boezinghe' classic threads (both of which are still active and have recent posts). Diggers at Boezinghe - 1082 posts in 434 days. Average 2.5 posts per day. Grandpa's Trunk - 757 posts in 280 days. Average 2.7 posts per day Potijze Mystery - 472 posts in 12 days Average 39.3 posts per day Truly a 'classic' thread. Tim L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest geoff501 Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 As long as it's there and hasn't been relocated! Still there, 'The Royal Irish Rifles Pioneer' - they serve an excellent Extra Cold Guinness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 Aurel, P.S. Ian, Sorry I can't go with Pekin. I just can't see it myself and the details of his burial would suggest otherwise. Although I can't positively discount your theory, it just seems that the 16th RIR men makes more sense and have some supporting evidence. Tim, I guess it is not possible to prove conclusively one way or the other visually. But what burial for Pekin? He has no known grave (he is on the Menin Gate) and had a memorial cross at Dochy Cemy at one time. (Photo was supplied to his family in 1921). Could that have ended up at Potijze? Imagine if Dochy ( a post war cemy) was finally filled with its burials, and no place for such memorial crosses? Off to Potizje with them? His date of death (Oct '17) does not exclude him, does it? However, whoever the cross is for, be it Jones or Pekin, it does not take us any further forward as they are both 'missing'. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auimfo Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 Ian, Sorry, I meant 'original memorial' not 'burial'. And no it doesn't exclude him but I think makes it less likely. But you're quite right, it takes us no closer to an answer in either case. Tim L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 Tim, Maybe we stick to the idea of cold beer...... And of course also lining one up for Aurel and anyone else who wanders by. (If they can find the pub that is...) Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 I love the way the lot of you keep scratching I confess having an addiction to this thread regards Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 I love the way the lot of you keep scratching It's becoming a nervous tick! What I'm so impressed by is that everyone keeps throwing ideas into the ring and having them demolished / chewed over etc. And yet it has all been done in such an open, friendly and supportive way that you feel happy about putting forward yet another idea. At no point has anyone dismissed somebody elses thoughts as daft - even though many of mine have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest geoff501 Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 However, whoever the cross is for, be it Jones or Pekin, it does not take us any further forward as they are both 'missing'. Ian, Jones AND Pekin, one is on the arm and one on the shield. Jones must be the clearest name in the image. Would you agree? The only Jones in the 22nd AIF are: Name: JONES, WILLIAM STANLEY Regiment: Australian Infantry, A.I.F. Unit Text: 22nd Bn. Date of Death: 02/09/1918 Cemetery: PERONNE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION Name: JONES, ARNOLD ERNEST Regiment: Australian Infantry, A.I.F. Unit Text: 22nd Bn. Date of Death: between 22/09/1917 and 23/09/1917 Cemetery: SANCTUARY WOOD CEMETERY Name: JONES, HUGH RICHARD Regiment: Australian Infantry, A.I.F. Unit Text: 22nd Bn. Date of Death: 04/10/1917 Cemetery: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL But look at the last one- THE SAME DATE AND MEMORIAL AS PEKIN . I raised the Pekin argument first, however until the left arm is explained, especially the 16, I'm still with Aurel's Royal Irish. Still also need a name for the first man on the shield. If they are both missing, it may not take us forward but shows Torrome to be the exception so far. We need a higher quality scan, however I think most of the damage was done in the printing stage, just does not have the resolution of film emulsion - in which there is always the possibility of enhancing detail that the naked eye does not see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabine72 Posted 8 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 8 August , 2006 hello, About dochy cemetery,were is that? can't find it in my books If it doesn't exist any more, that rings a bell to my because there is a farm at potijze and the farmer's name is douchy, for 3 generations at least, I'll ask my mum. although I don't see pekin sabine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 I just made a post on the "I'm going to Kew' threads asking for a lookup on Torrome and Cobbold. Their records might exist, with a nice explanation about their burial/commemoration. And on the other hand...... Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 Sabine, It is still there - look up on CWGC cemetery search. It appears to have been a postwar concentration cemy. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest geoff501 Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 I believe the first name on the shield has the initial (or last initial) J and the name begins with either P or R and is quite short. This would seem to fit. Unit, date and memorial: Name: ROWE, ARCHIBALD JOHN Regiment: Australian Infantry, A.I.F. Unit Text: 22nd Bn. Date of Death: 04/10/1917 Cemetery: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL Have I just traded an extra cold Guinness for a bottle of Crown Lager? Only two problems: (a.) HR Jones, when it looks like V. Jones (or perhaps W. Jones) (b.) Still need text for left arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest geoff501 Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 Memorial cross to A.J. Rowe from Australian on line records, at Dochy Farm, is said to be to Rowe and 'other soldiers'. Not yet found records for Jones or able to tie it to J Pekin. A photo is mentioned but not in the file. Any luck Ian ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 Geoff, Since you seem to be focussing on the first name on the shield ... This is what I posted in an earlier posting some days ago, but it is easier for me to repeat it here than to find back its number ... As I am pretty sure (though not 100%) that one name on the shield is C.V. JONES (Cecil Victor Jones), the other name must be a man of the same battalion, 16/RIRifles These are the men of that Bn. fallen on that same day 31/7/17 Malcolm BENNETT Colin CAMPBELL James ENGLISH Samuel HAMILTON John HULL Charles PUTMAN John RUSSELL (in my and Sabine's eyes the most likely candidate) Thomas SADLER Alfred STANFORD James WEIR Should you recognize one of these names as the first name on the shield ... And as it should be a name beginning with an R, or a letter looking like a an R (a B ? a P ?) ... Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 Geoff, As to James Pekin, John Archibald, Hugh Richard Jones, all 22/A.I.F., and fallen 4/10/17. 2nd Australian Div, 6th Australian Brigade, in which 22th Bn. A.I.F. on that day were conquering Zonnebeke and Broodseinde. This is 5.5 to 6.5 km (3 1/2 to 4 miles) away from Potijze. I am not saying that this is too far for them to be taken to Potijze, or for their commemorative cross or gravemarker to be taken there, but ... Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 8 August , 2006 Share Posted 8 August , 2006 hello, About dochy cemetery,were is that? can't find it in my books Sabine, Dochy Farm New British Cemetery is located 7 kilometres north-east of Ieper town centre on the Zonnebekestraat, a road leading from the Zonnebeekseweg (N332) connecting Ieper to Zonnebeke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabine72 Posted 8 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 8 August , 2006 derek, thank you, I should of looked better in the books. I just saw aurel a few minutes ago and he reminded me were dochy farm is. Aurel about the questions you asked, I looked again at the postcard pioneers I am sure about, rifles could be (need to look again tomorow morning when my eyes are not tired) But then the 16 th royal irish, 16 yes but the rest I don't see it. Russel and jones nearly 100% sure sabine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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