a soldier who used to have a grave

[Auimfo]

Yes, that's the idea Tim. I agree that it ought to be said by a mad scientist and followed by the sort of hysterical laughter that follows the phrase. "and tomorrow we conquer the world!".....

[Alan_J]

What to do next ?

Well, apart from that celebratory beer I'm not sure what more can be done unless we get new information, either from the files on Torrome and Cobbold (if they survive) or CWGC.

The issue of "Memorial Rows" or "Memorial plots" however is of interest to me, and I think it's worth looking into further. Aurel has identified an interesting description on the CWGC site for at least 2 soldiers at a cemetery in France - rather than a plot and grave reference it states "Special Memorial at II Mem. Row"

But rather than sidetrack this, I think we should look at a new thread on this aspect - it's a seperate cemetery and different soldiers (and may be a red herring anyway!).

Alan

[Alan_J]

It's nice to know what Andrew Hesketh looks like...not sure I'd drink that beer he's preparing though!!

[Andrew Hesketh]

Tim - the resemblance is uncanny.

[Roxy]

Well done Alan.

I think that his evidence provides some proof that our (collective) thoughts could stand up to some scrutiny - even if it is not conclusive proof that row A* is a 'memorial row'.

I'm always up for a beer!

Roxy

[Guest geoff501]

Not sure this is any use, but here is a note on Drv. 4127 ER Baker 11th AFA who was re-interred into Plot II.A.3.

Original burial was 3 miles NE of Ypres.

No date on the form.

[Aurel Sercu]

Geoff,

That's right, I had noticed his grave (3rd in Row A, the row behind A* Gardiner's Row.)

Just a detail. Two actually. He died 19 Oct. 1917. That day the front was already past Broodseinde - Zonnebeke. But of course, Baker being an artillery man, he must have been behind the first line.

But there is something else. You write his original burial place was 3 miles NE of Ypres. But that's not on the attached document, is it ? There I read 1 mile NE of Ypres, which is for Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery (and that's correct).

3 miles NE of Ypres is approx. Zonnebeke Road, some distance (1 mile) before Zonnebeke centre. And that is possible too of course.

Interesting, because it allows us to know from what area the remains in Plot II come from. (We know where Gardiner 12/HLI fell, approx. 500 m south of the cemetery, and this morning Jacky and me found where Torrome and Cobbold (Scots Guards) were when they fell (near Wieltje).

Aurel

[ianw]

I must say that I am touched by the obviously intense efforts that were made during and after the Great War to treat the remains of the dead with reverence and give relatives full information if possible about where they were laid to rest.

Similarly, it is gratifying to see similar care and interest 90 years after these events. Are we still remembering these men. A resounding yes to that question.

[Guest geoff501]

But there is something else. You write his original burial place was 3 miles NE of Ypres. But that's not on the attached document, is it ?

Aurel,

The 3 miles NE Ypres detail came from this document. A little faint, but readable. Also mentioned is a pill-box and a grave cross.

There is also an Australian in A30 and a couple in row D. Not all records are on-line, or perhaps I did not find them. May be worth another search and also to check if any more Aussies are in the plot.

Geoff

[ianw]

It would perhaps be nice if the Forum could place a wreath or similar on Driver Baker's grave as a tribute to his mother and a token of respect to the concept that his grave would be looked after in perpetuity. We share that perpetuity at the moment with the CWGC.

[Guest geoff501]

It would perhaps be nice if the Forum could place a wreath or similar on Driver Baker's grave as a tribute to his mother and a token of respect to the concept that his grave would be looked after in perpetuity. We share that perpetuity at the moment with the CWGC.

It is rather poignant reading the widows and parents letters in the archive.

[Guest geoff501]

Seems there are ten in Plot II:

A.3. 4127-BAKER-AUSTRALIAN FIELD ARTILLERY-19/10/1917

A.30. 2245-EPPINGSTALL-AUSTRALIAN INFANTRY, A.I.F.-05/10/1917

D.6. 2132-KEEVERS-AUSTRALIAN PIONEERS-29/10/1917

D.12. 2328-FISHER-AUSTRALIAN INFANTRY, A.I.F.-13/10/1917

D.14. 7196-BROCKLEBANK-AUSTRALIAN INFANTRY, A.I.F.-13/10/1917

D.17. 27148-SMITH-AUSTRALIAN FIELD ARTILLERY-19/10/1917

D.30. 3072/A-BROWN-AUSTRALIAN INFANTRY, A.I.F.-19/10/1917

E.29. 9634-HOWE-AUSTRALIAN ENGINEERS-15/10/1917

G.1. 1087-HOOD-AUSTRALIAN PIONEERS-15/10/1917

G.2. 2301-FARRELL-AUSTRALIAN PIONEERS-15/10/1917

[Aurel Sercu]

Aurel has identified an interesting description on the CWGC site for at least 2 soldiers at a cemetery in France - rather than a plot and grave reference it states "Special Memorial at II Mem. Row"

But rather than sidetrack this, I think we should look at a new thread on this aspect - it's a seperate cemetery and different soldiers (and may be a red herring anyway!).

Alan

Correct. Yesterday night I googled with "Mem. Row", mentioned by Alan in one of his postings, and arrived at a cemetery near Bethune (Pas de Calais), CHOCQUES MILITARY CEMETERY.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/cemetery_detail...6500&mode=1

The cemetery itself has nothing to do with Potijze or Ypres, but I found mention there of a "Memorial Row". And after wading through the reports this afternoon I found names of 10 men (apart from 1 all Suffolk Reg., almost all 15/6/18, but that's not relevant here) whose headstone can be found "Special Memorial at II Mem. Row"

This puzzles me. Also because when looking at the Cemetery Plan, I did not even find that II Mem. Row. (Is it plot II ? No idea.)

Anyway, what I want to say is that it looks like these 10 headstones (or is it only 1 memorial ?) originally may have been a row of Memorial markers, from the surrounding battlefields, markers which were, unlike the Memorial Row at Potijze, afterwards NOT removed.

We assumed that the Potijze Memorial Row A* was removed because the names were on the Menin Gate. Maybe the Chocques Row was not removed because there was no monument I thought to have their names written on ? But now that I think of it, and after Alan informed me that ALL names of Unknowns, should be on a Memorial to the Missing, there is a Memorial near Bethune, isn't there ? Le Touret ?

Anyway, not really important maybe after all ? It is possible that a "Memorial Row" is the same as what we call a row of "Special Memorials". But a "Memorial Row" is something that I have never come across in the Ypres Cemeteries. It's always "Special Memorials".

***

Also this. In the historical infrormation for LA CHAUDIERE MILITARY CEMETERY, VIMY, I read : "Other special memorials commemorate men whose graves in some of the concentrated cemeteries had been destroyed in subsequent fighting". Reminded me of our Row A*. These men (Gardiner and Cobbold and Jones and Russell(?) should have had such special memorial in Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery too ?)

And then, such commemorations as in Vimy must be the same as what we have in the Ypres Salient as "Duhallow blocks" ? I'll think about that.

Aurel

[ianw]

Of course , Mrs Baker may well be the widow rather than the mother. As you say it is heart-breaking to read these letters in the knowledge that it would be unlikley that they would have been able to visit the graves.

However, it is cheering that the care of these graves has indeed proved to be perpetual for Driver Baker and all the others. And long may it continue so.

[Aurel Sercu]

Geoff,

Referring to your posting # 527.

I can even add one more : Plot II.A.21.

One you could not possibly know. Because it is "An Australian soldier of the Great War".

Terry's list is wonderful, and very useful. But there is one thing it does not show : details about the Unknowns. Of course, Unknowns are Unknowns. But being in the cemetery I noticed the double and triple Unknowns, and also headstones with inscriptions like :

An Irish Soldier of the Great War

A Scottish Soldier ...

An Unknown Soldier .... Leicester Regiment

and even

A British Officer of the Great War.

Suppose that this man is Captain ....

Maybe I should go back to have a closer look at all these 100 or so Unknowns. The problem is that so far all afternoon I have been at this PC, whereas my wife wanted me to mow the lawn. And all the time I said : Wait a few minutes... And a few minutes ago it ... started to rain, making it impossible for me to mow the lawn. She does not find this amusing. But I do !

The problem is, however : Can I take my bike now and cycle to the Potijze ? She would not find that amusing either.

Aurel

[ian turner]

OK - check this one out:

Pullen, Frederick Gould

Number: 2167

Rank: Private [Pte]

Unit: 5th Australian Pioneers

Service: Army

Conflict: 1914-1918

Date of Death: 04/11/1917

Place of Death:

Cause of Death: Killed in action

Memorial Panel: 175

Cemetery or Memorial Details: BELGIUM 45 Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery

Next Of Kin:

Place Of Enlistment: East Maitland, NSW

Native Place:

Notes: PULLEN, Pte. Frederick Gould, 2167. 5th Australian Pioneers. Killed in action 4th Nov., 1917. Age 26. Son of Frederick Charles and Lucinda Caroline Pullen, of West Maitland, New South Wales. Special Memorial near Great Cross.

Source: AWM145 Roll of Honour cards, 1914-1918 War, Army

Now, consider his battalion - 5th Australian Pioneers

Maybe what we are reading on our cross?

But then for further interest, please see these images of his burial details:

They are copies over the next several posts

Ian

[ian turner]

The next...

[ian turner]

And again....

[ian turner]

And finally....

Think these images should prove interesting!

Ian

[Aurel Sercu]

Ian,

1. Sorry, I won't even try to read the name "Pullen" on the "16th Royal Irish Rifles Pioneers" double cross.

2. Interesting to read "Memorial Row" in one of the documents. (I wrote about "Memorial Rows" in one of my postings this afternoon.)

3. On one of the documents I read about Pullens Special Memorial "BELIEVED to be buried ..."

Yet I am sure on that Sp. Mem. I read : "KNOWN to be buried ..."

Odd.

4. And I also read in one of the documents (1925) : "Your son, the late Pte F.G. Pullen are [is] interred."

With regard to my point 3 a bit puzzling, isn't it ?

Aurel

[ian turner]

Aurel,

???

I am not suggesting the cross says Pullen, but it might involve 5th Aus Pioneers?

However the papers confirm the existance of a MEMORIAL ROW in plot II!!

Isn't that what we want to know???

I thought this was good evidence, but now I am disappointed....

Ian

[Terry Denham]

and after Alan informed me that ALL names of Unknowns, should be on a Memorial to the Missing, there is a Memorial near Bethune, isn't there ? Le Touret ?

Anyway, not really important maybe after all ? It is possible that a "Memorial Row" is the same as what we call a row of "Special Memorials". But a "Memorial Row" is something that I have never come across in the Ypres Cemeteries. It's always "Special Memorials".

Aurel

It is correct that, if the body is missing and has always been missing or a temporary grave subsequently 'misplaced' or lost, the name will be on one of the Memorials to the Missing.

However, if the grave was once known and was in a recognised cemetery but is now lost through battle or simply could not be found when the cemetery was cleared, Special Memorial headstones are erected in nearby cemeteries - sometimes surrounding a Duhallow Block naming the previous cemeteries.

Remember that the 'Memorial Row' referred to in the above posts is army terminology and 'Special Memorial' is CWGC terminology for their headstones commemorating lost graves and invented only after the cemeteries were turned over to their care by the army - although the term possibly stemming from the earlier army terminology. Remember also that in the very early days of CWGC, it was proposed for a while that a memorial headstone would be erected for every missing man but the idea was soon replaced by the Memorials to the Missing concept.

[Alan_J]

Terry,

Aurel is correct, I also checked the plan of Chocques Cemetery last night and there are no memorial rows marked at all on it. The information on the cemetery does not refer to any special memorials, although there is generally some refernence to these if they exist. It does describe a memorial to RFC men, but states that they have graves.

Of course the plans are quite old, and I've found several where today's layout does not match up with the plans (in terms of location of entrances and structures, not grave layouts I hasten to add).

It was just an interesting anomaly bearing in mind the discusions on this thread. I think Le Touret covers only up until the end of 1915 (just checked, in fact up to the Battle of Loos) so if missing the men would be on another Memorial to the Missing, but the fact is the CWGC records state Chocques Cemetery, so their headstones, whether over graves or as Special Memorials should be there.

Ian, I think your post of the images does have value - today Pullen is commemorated at Potijze Chateau Grounds by a Special Memorial "near the Great Cross" - but again the forms talk of Memorial Rows, and four of the five soldiers listed on the form posted previously were listed as being commemorated in Memorial Rows or Plots and are now on Memorials to the Missing. So not all of the Crosses in these Memorial rows or plots related to soldiers "known" or "believed" to be buried in the cemetery where their Cross stood.

Alan

[Terry Denham]

Alan

My point was a general one about the terminology and not referring to this or any other cemetery in particular.

[ian turner]

Not surprisingly Sgt Fischer's file carries same notes as Pullen's.

Attaching Sgt Fischer's original burial info, for interest.

Ian