Alan_J Posted 10 August , 2006 Share Posted 10 August , 2006 The phrase 'I lost the plot' was an unintentional pun! A jolly good summary of the thread so far! If I may refer you to post #23, 17 pages ago....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 11 August , 2006 Share Posted 11 August , 2006 This must be the end ... More than 20 hours since the last (serious) posting ... Does the Great War Forum do anything special for Forum Pals with PCGC-syndrome (*) and / or serious Withdrawal Symptoms ? A Special Memorial Row ? ("Known / Believed to have been driven mad by this Mystery" ?) Aurel (* Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery Syndrome) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 11 August , 2006 Share Posted 11 August , 2006 I just love the "I lost the plot" line ! Too good to be anything other than unintentional. I was just thinking that if it ever becomes necessary to move any cemetery because of development, it will be necessary to excavate the entire site - then some of these graves may well be rediscovered and marked again. Given the regimental nature of some cemeteries, I wonder if any of them ever took on the nature of regimental shrines with a large number of memorials? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auimfo Posted 11 August , 2006 Share Posted 11 August , 2006 This can't be the end..........what will I do now!! Surely there some other Potijze scandal we must explore. Oh oh....everythings starting to spin.......I'm feeling woozy....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 11 August , 2006 Share Posted 11 August , 2006 Is it over do you think? Are we still awaiting anything from CWGC via Terry - I can't remember! Who wants to summarise our conclusions for Sabine? Sabine, you said in an e-mail to me when this all began that your Grandfather had left you some other mysteries to solve as well..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 11 August , 2006 Share Posted 11 August , 2006 Tim, 1. Take off these shorts ! It's winter in Australia ! 2. OK, let me come to your rescue and reanimation ... If you have nothing else to do : have a look at the photo in posting # 131 (page 7). Potijze Chateau Ruins. (This postcard has already been posted by Alan. Months ago. In order to find where it was. Paul Reed found it was Potijze. And he's right. The Search Machine will help you if you want to reread this Topic.) Left side of the postcard you can see crosses. a. Is this Chateau Grounds Cemetery Plot 1 ? b. Is this Chateau Grounds Cemetery Plot 2 ? c. Is this Lawn Cemetery ? Motivate your answer, by using the trees in the background please. (Alan and I have already discussed it a little off Forum.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 11 August , 2006 Share Posted 11 August , 2006 And this too. It's not my intention to rake up the debate "What is written on the right and left arm of the cross" debate. (I am still convinced it is 16th Royal Irish Rifles Pioneers.) Just to say that IF the shield in the middle reads : C.V. JONES (I am sure) and J. RUSSELL (doubts about the latter), and IF the left half of the shield (broken off) contained names of men of the same Bn., then these names may have been 2 (?) of these : C. CAMPBELL S. HAMILTON C. PUTMAN (SDGW ; CWGC writes PUTNAM) T. SADLER These are the men of that Bn. who were KIA on the same day, and who do not have a known grave. (Only Menin Gate.) But of course, I am not sure that the left half had names. Maybe the date ? For the date indeed should have been somewhere ? (Bottom of the shield ? I can't find it there.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 11 August , 2006 Share Posted 11 August , 2006 And also this : The Memorial Row A* had markers that were brought in by the men of the Battlefield Clearance team (or is the correct name Graves Registration Unit ?) or one of these teams who had also brought in the remains of the present Rows A - G. It is my conviction (?) that many more crosses had been on these battlefield burial sites than the mere 25 - 30 in Row A*. Crosses that were left there. Is it possible that the men who brought them in, "somehow" thought that they had reason to believe that the men whose names were mentioned on the markers in Row A* (and I think they all had names !), were behind that row, in A - G ? What that "somehow" and "had reason to believe" exactly means, I don't know. But they had exhumed them, and seen the context etc., but just did not have absolute proof that the remains found on spot X was the man whose name Y was on marker Z. Let's say : intuition. In other words, this Memorial Row in a way could be considered as a row of Special Memorials "avant la lettre". (For if I understood Terry correctly, the Special Memorial concept was not until a couple of years later ) *** I know, even if this is true, finding out WHERE in Rows A - G a particular men of Row A* is, among these 100 Unknowns is impossible. What I mean is : Take the example of COBBOLD, a Scots Guard. Well, in Plot 2, Row C there are 2 Unknown Scots Guards. Is one of them Cobbold ? Could be. But of course Cobbold might just as well be one of the 100 Unknowns with no nationality or battalion mentioned on the other headstones in Plot 2. I know, it does not really help us. Just filling this Thread. Preventing it from stopping. Preventing Tim from becoming dizzy in his shorts. Feeling better already, Tim ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabine72 Posted 11 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 11 August , 2006 andrew, we are not finished yet, and yes I have some other mistories to solve, thanks to my granddad and his brother in law (my great unlcle). And to tim how many scandals of the potijze do you want? even funny stories to tell sabine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 11 August , 2006 Share Posted 11 August , 2006 even funny stories to tell sabine I would not exactly call the event that happened in Café De Potijze in the 1950s "funny" ! Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 11 August , 2006 Share Posted 11 August , 2006 Just to confuse you..... Did you know that CWGC sometimes ommitted the 'Known to be buried' superscription from Special Memorials - if the relatives requested that they do so!!! That means that some normal looking headstones could really be Special Memorials!! When I hear back from CWGC, I'll send their hopefully enlightening answer to any participant in this thread who has supplied me with their email address written on the back of a £20 note (20 euro/$20 dollar note for our Belgian/Aussie friends). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 11 August , 2006 Share Posted 11 August , 2006 Ah good one. A real curve ball from Terry re. special memorials! What a tinker he is ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabine72 Posted 11 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 11 August , 2006 aurel, I didn't mean that one aurel. 3 dead children killed by their father isn't a funny story. Their are mutch nicer ones, some only known by people who lived at the potijze and their ancestors. sabine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabine72 Posted 13 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 13 August , 2006 Hello, I 'll be able to see some family letters soon; who knows there is something interesting in it. so keep all your fingers crossed we will need it !!!! sabine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 13 August , 2006 Share Posted 13 August , 2006 Good luck, Sabine. Meanwhile I am continuing trying to find "things" about Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery. But the things I find are not relevant to our problem. Also : something I tend to disagree on with Ian. But that's nothing new I suppose ... Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest geoff501 Posted 13 August , 2006 Share Posted 13 August , 2006 "He was killed near Ypres on the 31st July, by heavy shell fire whilst in a trench with his company. His death was almost immediate. His company was badly scattered by the shelling, and later moved forward, so I have not yet any details of his burial. " But this does not prove there was or was not a grave. I agree that it may have been unlikely. The nature of his death, by shell fire,may mean that there was little or nothing to recover or that his remains were buried by the explosions. However we cannot say for ceratin that he was not found and buried and then lost again. Just returned to read more after being away a few days. Getting very confusing. Don't know if it has been stated before but of the 10 others killed this day along with Gardiner, eight end up on Menin Gate. (1 Potijze, 1 Brandhoek and 1 Aeroplane). Impossible to say why, but it seems it is not unusual for this days activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 13 August , 2006 Share Posted 13 August , 2006 (...) of the 10 others killed this day along with Gardiner, eight end up on Menin Gate. (...) Impossible to say why, but it seems it is not unusual for this days activity. And so are the 6 men of 12/HLI fallen the following day 1/8/17. All on Menin Gate Memorial. (I have always been surprised to find out that the number of men fallen on 31/7/17 and who do not have a known grave, only a name on the Menin Gate Memorial, is so high. A few years ago I did this research for the Boezinge - Langemark area (Pilkem Ridge), in total a few hundreds of men, and the percentage of them only being a name on the Menin Gate Memorial was approx. 60%. I had expected it to be much lower. (I could explain why I thought that it would be lower, but it's not really relevant in this thread.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie Posted 13 August , 2006 Share Posted 13 August , 2006 I have been following this thread(well trying to) and all I can say is WELL DONE. It shows the calibre of the contributing members of this thread in wanting to help, dedication to research and the members ability to stick with it. Cheers Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabine72 Posted 13 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 13 August , 2006 Kim, Thank you we are not giving up, even if we all end up crazy I would like to think that one day I'll find answers on all (near all) my questions regarding to frederick thomas gardiner. sabine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Watch Posted 14 August , 2006 Share Posted 14 August , 2006 This has probably been pointed out before but..... The grave directly behind Gardiners cross actually appears to be nailed onto it. It overlaps at the top. The word "of" on the top part of cross has another word above it obscured by something (or is it a hole). It can only be a short word and the first letter looks to me like a "B" Apologies if this has been said before, but i couldn't force myself to read through the entire post again. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 14 August , 2006 Share Posted 14 August , 2006 1. This has probably been pointed out before but..... The grave directly behind Gardiners cross actually appears to be nailed onto it. It overlaps at the top. 2. The word "of" on the top part of cross has another word above it obscured by something (or is it a hole). It can only be a short word and the first letter looks to me like a "B" 3. Apologies if this has been said before, but i couldn't force myself to read through the entire post again. Neil Neil, 1. I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean the cross partly hidden by Gardiner's cross, I mean seen from the photographer's point of view ? The one behind the letter I of GARDINER ? And do you mean that the white cross behind that one (diamond or rhombic (correct word?) shaped) appears to be nailed to the one behind Gardiner ?... I don't know ... (Sorry if I misunderstood.) 2. Yes, there may or must have been another word, but I have no idea what it may have been, but it looks like the first letter is a B indeed. I think there is a hole. A longvertical one, right through the "heart" at the upper end (which may have had the letter I, of R.I. P., the P still visible after 12 HLI in the one of the other hearts. Through that opening you can see a cross in a distant row, and even a metal strip in a cross I think in Row D (?) (So difficult to explain. I wish I could add that part of the photo here.) 3. Come on, Neil, it would only take an hour or four or five ! And if the weather in the UK is the same as right now right here in Ypres, what else have you got to do ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 14 August , 2006 Share Posted 14 August , 2006 Neil, I just can't cut out Gardiner's cross from a photo with a high resolution (my Photo Editor obstinately refuses So, the whole photo again... And looking at my high resolution photo again (so, not the one below), and zooming in, I'm not sure the word is OF. And also, could the B that we thought we saw, be an M ? The M of MEMORY ? (I must say I'm not sure I know where the word MEMORY originally was on the cross.) Someone else can help ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Watch Posted 14 August , 2006 Share Posted 14 August , 2006 Yes the rhomboid cross is the one I mean. To me its been tacked on to gardiners big cross. On page 1 of this topic there is a higher res picture. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 14 August , 2006 Share Posted 14 August , 2006 Neil, Personally I have a slightly different view. It looks to me that the white rhomboid cross is two (three ?) rows behind Gardiners Row A*. And isn't there a standard cross between Gardiner's cross and the white rhomboid cross ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Watch Posted 14 August , 2006 Share Posted 14 August , 2006 Aurel I think if you look closely, you can see the rhomboid part of the cross is actually in front of Gardiners cross. You can also see the bottom of the cross, and it doesn't seem to be in the ground. I think it has been nailed to the right arm of the horizontal cross piece, and the diamond (rhomboid) shape is in front of the top vertical cross piece. Therefore it must have been attached after the cross was damaged. Just above the IN in GardINers name is a nail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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