John_Hartley Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 I cannot help but feel a little disappointed and sad on behalf of Gardiner and co. It really shouldnt do. This has really been a cracking thread to watch with great credit to the forensic skills that folk ahve brought to it. But, surely, it's always reassuring to find that the most likely answer proves to be the right answer. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Bridge House....that's interesting. It was an original cemetery, not post-armistice, only 41 (I think) known buried there. So a memorial cross to one man must have been recovered (presumably) post-armistice, placed at Potijze, then subsequently the fact this man was buried at Bridge House came to light. But this would not have been as the result of moving, or recovering the body later.....and surely IWGC would just have made Bridge House permanent, with the graves as they existed? Terry, do you know which man at Bridge House this refers to ? (...) Alan Terry, This is what Alan asked. I have a similar question for Wieltje Farm. Do you have the name or names of the man or men whose cross was or were taken from there to Potijze and planted in Row A* ? You had the name of the Bridge House man, maybe the Wieltje Farm man or men too ? (If you want to know why I want to know .... Somehow I think this may corroborate my 16/RIRifles conviction. 16/RIIRifles were at Wieltje on 31 July 1917 (road Wieltje - Spree Farm), when C.V. Jones and J. Russell (?) fell. And as Wieltje Farm Cemetery is very close to Wieltje (less than 500 meters) ... *** Sabine, If ever you make a scan of the postcard again, would you please focus on the double cross fragment, and make a high resolution scan of only that cross ? (Maybe Bitmap ?) And send it to me off Forum ? (For if on Forum, then it will be resized, and lose quality.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Aurel See my post No.679 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Aurel See my post No.679 Terry, Sorry... (But there have been more than Flavell ?) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 As I said, I didn't ask for a list as that was not the original enquiry. However, I think that there were only the four burial names in the row as CWGC supplied those to me without being asked specifically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Aurel Just re-read my info from CWGC and it says "ALL other names have Menin Gate or Tyne Cot by them". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 OK, Terry, that's clear. I think. Until my next question. Followed by your embarrassing reply. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Terry, Just to add my thanks for your clarification from CWGC. I was patient afterall? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Mrs Aurel S. will be please the thread has come to a close - Aurel now has no excuse not to do his chores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Mrs Aurel S. will be please the thread has come to a close - Aurel now has no excuse not to do his chores. Neil, Hush !!! Don't tell her it has come to a close ! Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Hush !!! Don't tell her it has come to a close ! Otherwise, Aurel, how will you explain going off on your bike wearing your slippers? She might think other thoughts. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Aurel, You were correct, Mrs Roxy did mention the lack of disturbed earth in row A* - I didn't believe her; oops Roxy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 17 August , 2006 Share Posted 17 August , 2006 1. Roxy, don't tell Mrs that she was right, or that it made sense. It's better that wives don't know that. Either blonde or not. And always wear slippers when you disappear for a while. Like I do. (John H. ) It keeps the mystery in your relationship alive. 2. This is what we call "Vijgen na Pasen" in Flanders (Figs after Easter ; you simply say : Too late to be of any use). Many postings ago I referred to Chocques Military Cemetery, near Béthune. According to CWGC on line there was a "Mem. Row", which however was not visible on the cemetery plan. I thought that maybe this Memorial Row was something like the disappeared Potijze A* Row. This problem has been solved. An acquaintance of mine who knows the cemetery very well, yesterday pointed out that this is nothing but a row of Special Memorials, which is forgotten on the cemetery plan. 3. Maybe this will be interesting ... A few days ago I contacted an Ypres postcard collector, and sent him the 5 Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery postcards with wooden markers we have, and asked him if he had other Potijze CG Cem. postcards different from ours. He's just replied he has ... two. He'll scan and e-mail them tomorrow. Maybe there will be something on it that will fan the fire again ? ;-) 4. Terry, Maybe the Potijze Mystery Chapter is one that is closed for you now. Should you still be around : the CWGC information you made public, do you know what year it is from ? (Sorry if you have already mentioned that in a previous posting.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 17 August , 2006 Share Posted 17 August , 2006 Aurel I don't know the specific year but the info was from the period when CWGC took over the cemetery and so it would have been the very early 1920s or possibly 1918-19 Your point about the SM row being missing from the plan for Chocques (assuming you are talking about the CWGC plan available online).... Many of these plans differ to that which actually appears on the ground. The plans were drawn from 1920 onwards for publication in the original registers and many were never updated - so discrepancies occur. Interestingly, the row of SMs DOES appear on the plan in my copy of the original register but does not appear in the online copy - as you say! The register was first published in 1923 without the SMs on the plan but reprinted in 1992 with corrections/updates including the SM row on the plan (This is the edition I have). It seems that CWGC have used the old version of the plan online rather than the newer one! This has happened before and usually stems from the person actually undertaking the work not knowing there was a later edition! Obviously the SM row was added to the cemetery post-1923. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 17 August , 2006 Share Posted 17 August , 2006 Terry, The Chocques Mil. Cem. plan I had in mind indeed was the one on line, without the SMs. But yesterday the one Frans (my Chocques and other cemeteries expert in Ypres) showed me was a copy taken from the original register, and indeed : no SM row marked on it, as you wrote. Anyway "Chocques" was a false alarm. I had just been struck by that "Memorial Row", a phrase I had never seen relating to cemeteries in the Ypres Salient. (Always : a row of Special Memorials.) But I can be wrong of course. And it's not really important in this or any opther context. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 17 August , 2006 Share Posted 17 August , 2006 Interesting that the original 20's register plan is not definitive and the the 1992 is more comprehensive. Can't wait for those 2 additional photos from Aurel's pal. I would ne nice if there were a comprehensive database of cemetery photos from the earliest days up to date. The changes to them are fascinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 17 August , 2006 Share Posted 17 August , 2006 Can't wait for those 2 additional photos from Aurel's pal. I would be nice if there were a comprehensive database of cemetery photos from the earliest days up to date. The changes to them are fascinating. Ian, I am looking forward to seeing them too. I have already replied to him and asked if he was sure it was Potijze GROUNDS, and not LAWN or WOOD or BURIAL GROUNDS. And : with wooden markers. It seemed to me he was sure. (Though an original of Potijze Lawn would be welcome too.) As to your second sentence. It's a pity I think that postcards collectors in general do not really focus on what the postcards show, the historic significance, relevant differences, etc. They just ... collect. (That's why they are collectors, isn't it.) On the other hand, one cannot expect them to focus on that historical aspect of ALL their postcards of course. They have hundreds, and many of them non-war related. I know that a number of Forum Pals collect postcards (and photos), but there must be many dozens of postcard collectors, with invaluable WW1 postcards, who have even never heard of this Forum. And are not interested. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 17 August , 2006 Share Posted 17 August , 2006 Aurel - Yes, collectors can be strange creatures. Some love to share their expertise and collection while others seem to take delight in not sharing any information with anyone. Sometimes this is due to the advantage their knowledge gives them in buying. That's fair enough, I suppose, but sharing any info I have is a pleasure. I wonder how many different views there are of these Ypres cemeteries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 17 August , 2006 Share Posted 17 August , 2006 Ypres postcard collector...He's just replied he has ... two. He'll scan and e-mail them tomorrow. Maybe there will be something on it that will fan the fire again ? ;-) Aaaargh! Somebody alert Tafski. (Seriously - I look forward to seeing them) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabine72 Posted 17 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 17 August , 2006 Ianw, on your guestion about the vieuws, I think potijze chateau ground has about 10 different vieuws, But I don't have them all , but I'll get them before turning 84 (I'm a collector, a blonde one) sabine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 17 August , 2006 Share Posted 17 August , 2006 Whilst we wait for the photos.......in some unrelated research I've been doing, I came across the following interesting case - also relates to Potijze. In The Times of August 7th 1967 (yes, 1967) is an In Memoriam entry to a soldier - Cyril Gladstone Hunt of the RE, who, it states was killed in action at Broodsiende 9th April 1918 and interred at "Potijze Chateau cemetery" (although it doesn't specify which one). However, Cyril Hunt is commemorated today on the Menin Gate. And he is not one of the Unknowns listed by Aurel for Grounds in post #589 Anyone want to take this mystery up? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 17 August , 2006 Share Posted 17 August , 2006 Sabine - here's a new line for you to attract those guys - "Want to come up and see my cemetery photos ?" This has to work every time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabine72 Posted 17 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 17 August , 2006 Ianw, That is a good one, I don't have intrest in any more men. my darling husband and son are more then enough for me. sine I have to work with men all day, I prefere researching ww1 soldiers. enough joking now. You collect postcards too? I collect the potijze of course, the village I live in now, Ieper and anything that has to do with ww1 in the area. I will put some in the forum in the near future.I am a collector who has no problem with other people looking at my postcards. So let me know If you have interest in cemeteries in the area, maybe I have a postcard of it. sabine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 17 August , 2006 Share Posted 17 August , 2006 I came across the following interesting case - also relates to Potijze. In The Times of August 7th 1967 (yes, 1967) is an In Memoriam entry to a soldier - Cyril Gladstone Hunt of the RE, who, it states was killed in action at Broodsiende 9th April 1918 and interred at "Potijze Chateau cemetery" (although it doesn't specify which one). However, Cyril Hunt is commemorated today on the Menin Gate. And he is not one of the Unknowns listed by Aurel for Grounds in post #589 Anyone want to take this mystery up? Alan Alan, How dare you 1. hijack our own thread ? 2. make it impossible for me to "enjoy" thinking of Potijze Chateau ? The Gardiner row mystery having been solved, I thought : At last ! Peace and tranquillity in this cemetery for me again. No more mysteries ! And this is the moment that you picked out to ... Anyway, a few thoughts, after wading through the cemetery reports of Potijze Chateau Grounds, Lawn and Wood (more than half an hour !!!) : GROUNDS Plot II Maybe a bit unlikely that Cyril Hunt could be or have been there ? For of the approx. 100 known graves, only 3 are of 1918 : 31/3/18, 21/3/18, 16/8/18. None of them R.E. Yes, I know, 31 March is pretty close to Cyril Hunt's 9/4/18 ... GROUNDS Plot I A high number of men from 1918 indeed ! The most recent one is the last grave (E.42) : 5 april 1918. Pretty close to Cyril Hunt's date of death ! But not an R.E. (Apart from 2 men 28/9/18) WOOD Almost all men 1915-16. Only 2 (!) of 1918 : 13/5/18. More than a month from Cyril Hunt. And none R.E. LAWN There are indeed 15 men of 1918, but all are last week of Sept - first week of Oct. Except 1 : 13/4/18 (Sco Rif) And yes, that's close to Cyril Hunt's 9/4/18 If Cyril Hunt had been an infantry regiment, then I would have tried to find out if somehow he was in the same brigade or so as the Scottish Rifleman, but being an R.E. ... I don't think you can do much with this... Maybe Cyril Hunt's name on one of the panels at Tyne Cot Cem. (not Menin Gate Mem.) is the most "logical" place ? Considering the location Broodseinde too ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 17 August , 2006 Share Posted 17 August , 2006 Aurel, Sorry I couldn't resist! I was just going through some files I had and came across a note I'd written next to The Times piece for Hunt, and of course "Potijze" caught my eye! Seriously, I think you're right, I don't think we will solve this one - it is always possible that the entry in the newspaper, fifty years later, was in error anyway. It's possible that he was buried near Potijze Chateau in one of the cemeteries in 1918 but his grave was totally lost, or the records were lost, and yes the location of his death wouldn't necessarily "fit" with Potijze..... However, I'm interested enough to have a look for his service record next time I can get to Kew - just on the off-chance! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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