a soldier who used to have a grave

[Aurel Sercu]

Graves seem to be populated row by row (A,B,...) regardless of the plot, so it still 'looks good' when sections are skipped.

Geoff,

This is indeed what I wondered. So you think (and this is confirmed by the chronology I suppose) that first all graves in the row(s) A of what now is Plots I to VI were laid, then graves in the row(s) B of plots I to VI, etc.

Sounds logical.

Then after Row E in what is now Plot IV, for some reason they stopped (presence of a tree ?), and went on in VI.C (see your posting # 732), and then to Row F. (Though that one is very irregular and shows a large gap.)

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

Aurel,

I found a reference on the web for a rough estimate of tree dating. Measure the girth in cm at a height of 1.5m. For oak divide this by 1.88 to get the age in years or 2.5 for ash, beech or elm.

Geoff,

I did not really pay attention to the sort of tree when I was there last Saturday. (I always keep my head down in cemeteries.

This is a photo of Strand Mil. Cem. I took 2 years ago, a tree near the entrance. It looks like an oak tree to me, but I'm not sure. It is an oak ? And the others inthe background too ?

Aurel

[Neil Mackenzie]

Aurel.

I cannot access the CWGC site at present but wondered what period the Special Memorials relate to and whether the men on commemorated by them would 'fill the gap'.

Neil

[Guest geoff501]

Aurel.

I cannot access the CWGC site at present but wondered what period the Special Memorials relate to and whether the men on commemorated by them would 'fill the gap'.

Neil

Neil,

As noted in my post #732, the burials in VI. C. would seem to fit, timewise, into the missing row V.E.

I think row V.E was just skipped as row E was populated, but as you say we cannot check the specials.

Interesting that in the gaps in the populated rows within plots, there are no missing numbers. I think the assumption is that the number system was generated by the army, if so does not seem likely that burials were moved elsewhere - can't see burials being renumbered it would screw up the paper records.

[Terry Denham]

You can check the specials. See here..

 

 

[Aurel Sercu]

I have just checked, and these Special Memorials (I counted 6) are :

4 with the date 7/6/17

1 with the date 10/6/17

1 with the date 12/6/17

So they don't fit in the period 23/6/17 to 11/7/17

They must be in Plot VI.C, as Geoff pointed out..

Aurel

[sabine72]

hello,

I'll check my collection tonight when I'm home to see if I have anything on strand military cemetery. (on my brothers computer now). If not then I know what to look for on my next hunt for postcards

sabine

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Sabine.

And I'll have a look in the photo collection of the Ypres Documentation Centre next Wednesday. But let's not be optimistic. Photos of how the approx. 170 present (and even more other) cemeteries in the Salient looked like with the original wooden markers, are rather scarce I think. (Though you may have a number of them.) Potijze Cemeteries turned out to be one of the exceptions. And we all benefited from it in this thread, didn't we ?

Sorry for hijacking your Topic and leading it to Ploegsteert, but as you have seen the Potijze Mystery had come to and end.

If you have other Potijze mysteries ... But you'd better start with a new topic ? This one has become too popular I guess.

Aurel

[sabine72]

Aurel,

sorry no strand military cemetery in my collection yet,

only a card of a military camp in ploegsteert and hydepark memorial.

I did find some info on the cemetery in the book "de militaire begraafplaatsen van wo1 in vlaanderen deel 4". Maybe you have it too?

Plots 7 to 10 were made after armistice by the concentration of 777 graves of smaller cemeteries and from the battlefields between wijtschate and armentières. The place was in german hands for a few month's in 1918 but they never used it for burials

If you want more out the book let me know, then I translate it all.

O I might have something else for the potyze tread, not sure yet need to look it up first.

sabine

[Aurel Sercu]

1. I did find some info on the cemetery in the book "de militaire begraafplaatsen van wo1 in vlaanderen deel 4". Maybe you have it too?

2. O I might have something else for the potyze tread, not sure yet need to look it up first.

sabine

Sabine,

Not really surprised you don't have a Strand Military Cemetery postcard. I'm not sure there are. But I may see next Wednesday.

1. I don't have the book, but I know it. (I have two other parts of the series) "Nice" books. The outlook I mean. Good photos. Unfortunately the contents not always reliable. I prefer my Michael Scott, The Ypres Salient.

The author picked things from the CWGC register. (I mentioned them in my posting # 722 too.)

2. ?????!!!!!!!!!!!!! Another mystery ?! Unfortunately I will have to switch off my PC half an hour from now, for the rest of the day. But tomorrow morning I will be woken up by a new Potijze Mystery ?

Aurel

[sabine72]

Aurel,

are you punished for spending to mutch time in front of the computer by misses sercu?

sabine

[Auimfo]

Sorry, this is a bit off thread topic but I wondered if anyone out there has some old postcards or photographs of Underhill Farm Cemetery, Ploegsteert. My Great Uncle is buried there. I have current photos of his grave and the general surrounds but I was after something older and closer to the time when he was buried (July 1917).

Thanks,

Tim L.

[sabine72]

Hello,

I'm still not sure if I have any thing else but

I saw a letter yesterday written by a soldier who was with frederick when he got killed he mentions a corporal ross and 3 other men killed at the same time.

Ross is at the menin gate at the same panel as frederick but the other 3 could be the ones I found at potijze.

The soldier who wrote the letter was wounded and left the battalion the night of the 31.07/1917.

I'll have to research him too

sabine

[Aurel Sercu]

Ross is at the menin gate at the same panel as frederick but the other 3 could be the ones I found at potijze.

sabine

Sabine,

I'm not sure I understand.

Do you mean that you found the graves of these other 3 men of 12/HLI, who died the same day as Cpl. Alexander Ross (1 Aug. 1917), at the Potijze ? (Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery ?)

The other men in the Battalion who died that day were Allan Armstrong, David Craig, Harry Lapping, William Lothian and Arthur Ramage. They are all on the Menin Gate Memorial.

But then you wrote "killed at the same time"... So not on Aug 1 but on July 31 ? All the 12/HLI men who died are on the Menin Gate, except 1 Potijze CGC, 1 Brandhoek (DoW), and 1 Aeroplane Cemetery.

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

Sorry, this is a bit off thread topic but I wondered if anyone out there has some old postcards or photographs of Underhill Farm Cemetery, Ploegsteert. My Great Uncle is buried there. I have current photos of his grave and the general surrounds but I was after something older and closer to the time when he was buried (July 1917).

Tim L.

Tim,

I am a bit confused, and yet : you made my day. I have always thought my short term memory was becoming a disaster, but I immediately remembered that a couple of years ago you started a Topic about that, and I even remembered that Paul Reed confirmed that a certain photo was Underhill Farm. And indeed, I found back the Topic, a little more than two years ago. (Is two years long term memory already ?

The problem however is that I cannot see the attached photos in your thread, and I regret that because somehow I seem to remember seeing a photo somewhere in a book, but right now I cannot find it back. But maybe what I have in mind is the photo you posted 2 years ago ? Can you re-post it ?

Aurel

[sabine72]

aurel,

That is what I meant with not being sure, I couldn't check with cwgc this morning, And I knew that you would help me out with the names and the ones I have are different. so they could be from an other battalion. The were killed at the same time as frederick the guy in the letter is verty clear about that;

I know Ross died on 01/08/1917 if the cwgc is write.Only he didn't mention the other names of the death.

here we go again,

I'm still not finished with frederick, found some new sorces I can ask for help.

sabine

[ian turner]

Sabine,

Not sure if it is what you want, but see my post 25 in this thread.

Ian

[Aurel Sercu]

so they could be from an other battalion. The were killed at the same time as frederick the guy in the letter is verty clear about that

Sabine,

That won't be easy.

There were 3 other Bns. active that day (10/Cameronians, 10/11 HLI and 7/8 KOSB, and these 3 even in more dangerous circumstances than 12/HLI)).

And in the same 15th Division the 44th and 45th Brigades (each 4 Battalions) were active too.

So there must have been many many dozens of fatal casualties.

I could have a look at which of these 12 battalions (11 without 12/HLI, for we know Ewan, the only one (see Ian) are represented in Plot I (and II) for 31 July 1917 , but that would take some time, and I don't think the result would be relevant.

Also : could you tell me what you mean by "the other 3 could be the ones I found at potijze" (your posting # 753) Which 3 do you mean ?

Aurel

[Andrew Hesketh]

Sabine - my e-mail is being a bit awkward at the moment and I don't think you got one or two of my recent e-mails. I presume you got the one about Ross from your comments above?

Anyway, the other 3 you mention (apologies to other readers that this is unexplained!)

Name: EWAN

Initials: J

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Highland Light Infantry

Unit Text: 12th Bn.

Age: 27

Date of Death: 31/07/1917

Service No: 39285

Additional information: Son of Mr. and Mrs. Ewan, of Aberdeen; husband of Janet Ewan, of 43, Dundee Terrace, Edinburgh.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: I. B. 23.

Cemetery: POTIJZE CHATEAU GROUNDS CEMETERY

(From SDGW - James Ewan, born Aberdeen, enlisted Edinburgh, killed in action)

Name: MACKENZIE, COLIN

Initials: C

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Highland Light Infantry

Unit Text: 10th/11th Bn. Age: 25

Date of Death: 31/07/1917

Service No: 42468

Additional information: Son of William and Jessie Mackenzie, of 114, Plantation St., Glasgow.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: I. B. 19.

Cemetery: POTIJZE CHATEAU GROUNDS CEMETERY

Name: MORRISON, JAMES SMITH

Initials: J S

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Lance Corporal

Regiment/Service: Highland Light Infantry

Unit Text: "D" Coy. 10th/11th Bn.

Age: 27

Date of Death: 01/08/1917

Service No: 15339

Additional information: Son of Elenora Morrison of 19, Grantly Gardens, Shawlands, Glasgow, and the late John Morrison.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: II. D. 24.

Cemetery: POTIJZE CHATEAU GROUNDS CEMETERY

So Mackenzie and Morrison can be eliminated from your enquiry.

[Ross again if youdidn't get it:

Name: ROSS, ALEXANDER M.

Initials: A M

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Corporal

Regiment/Service: Highland Light Infantry

Unit Text: 12th Bn.

Age: 22

Date of Death: 01/08/1917

Service No: 34016

Additional information: Son of Mr. and Mrs. James Ross, of East Lodge, Crathes Castle, Crathes, Aberdeen.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 38.

Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL ]

Very interested in your latest discoveries - keep me informed!

[Aurel Sercu]

Sabine,

Actually it took a lot less time than I had thought.

In Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery, for 31 July 1917

Men of 46th Brigade (same as 12/HLI) :

I.B.23 : Ewan, 12/HLI

II.C.21 : G. Guthrie, KOSB

I.B.19 : Colin McKenzie, 10/11 HLI

Of the 45th Brigade

II.A.4 : J. Campbell, RSF

None of the 44th Brigade

(I may have skipped one maybe ... Bit in a hurry. Off to my mother-in-law in a few minutes.)

But I don't think there is anything you can do with this. The other 3 men (which you mentioned), may have been missing, and only have a name on the Menin Gate I guess ?

Aurel

[Ozzie]

For photos from the 1915-1920's of cemeteries try here.

http://cas.awm.gov.au/TST2/cst.acct_master...r&bos=Win32

Some examples are below of what is on the AWM collections site. Try typing in the Name of the battle/cemetery or the name of the cemetery/ country. There are 1048 photos plus some film and others so be patient. I just put in cemetery, WW1 conflict.

Regards

Kim

[Andrew Hesketh]

That's an interesting link Ozzie. Thanks.

Once again the Australian approach is an example to our National Archives.....

[sabine72]

hello,

Thanks

back on my own computer again.

there is one left then Ewan J was a 12 bn HLI and is burried in potijze plot I B 23.

He could have been one of the 3 I'm looking for. And he has a known grave

I think I need a break

sabine

[Auimfo]

Thanks Aurel,

Your memory is obviously much better than mine!! I do remember the thread but I've always thought that the photo wasn't confirmed as being Underhill Farm and was only a possibility - hence my reason for enquiring about others.

I'll have to hunt down the thread and remind myself what was said.

Tim L.

[sabine72]

hello,

Any idea how I can find info on Jam.W Hardy

he was 12bn HLI too and didn't die during ww1 since I cann't find him on cwgc.

He was the one who wrote the letter to maclean telling about the death of frederick.

sabine