ianw Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Come off it Tim, $20 Aus is only £8.50 - even with another 20 , you are still short ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 No - That's OK. He's promised the rest in alcohol when I next visit that distant colony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Careful Terry. Looking at the banknote travel is by way of camel or bi-plane ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Ian You haven't travelled on a 747 then? It's even worse! By the way - I thought a Camel was a biplane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Indeed yes Tery , but as a W.E Johns fan, that particular bi-plane is not a Camel ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Oh Well... Here's the answer as my Get Rich Quick Scheme doesn't appear to be working - though thanks to Tim for trying! The details from the original records at CWGC are.... Firstly, they confirm the wording on GARDINER's cross as " GARDINER, Capt. T.F. and NCOs and men of the 12th HLI 31-7-17" Then, under the heading " Plot 2. Memorial Crosses (No Remains)", they list all the men in what this thread has called Row A*. There were no graves in this row - only memorial crosses. The names listed include men buried in Wieltje Farm, Bridge House & Ypres Town Extension as well as TORROME in Poelkapelle. The others are annotated 'Menin Gate' or 'Tyne Cot'. Those with graves have the note that the cross has been 'removed'. CWGC has pointed out something in the photo which nobody else has spotted. Row A* is indeed on the cemetery boundary but the ground in front of the crosses is flat and undisturbed whereas the ground in front of Row A with real burials is disturbed and you can see the burial mounds. It seems that this row consisted of memorial crosses either erected in situ by comrades etc or, more likely, of such crosses found discarded on the battlefields as they were cleared - possibly also on destroyed graves etc. They were then placed here by the army until they were later sorted. Here endeth the lesson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest geoff501 Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 CWGC has pointed out something in the photo which nobody else has spotted. Row A* is indeed on the cemetery boundary but the ground in front of the crosses is flat and undisturbed whereas the ground in front of Row A with real burials is disturbed and you can see the burial mounds. Terry, Aurel mentioned this in post #466: (and possibly also Ian Turner) This might also explain that on Sabine's photo (1919) the earth in front of the rows that we can see is different : the earth in front of rows A etc. is higher, whereas in front of Row A* it is not disturbed (no need to, since there had not to be dug, as it was not meant to contain remains So what do they (CWGC) have on the 16th RIR Pioneers. Anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Didn't ask. There is only so much you can ask to satisfy idle curiosity. Didn't notice Aurel's mention. Must have missed that one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Thanks for posting this info Terry (cheque is in the post - honest!) For those who had speculated that this (memorial crosses but no graves) was the explanation, this is quite a satisfactory outcome (I use the word in terms of confirming what we had suspected was the case). Should the thread now be retitled?? I'm so looking forward to these CWGC records being digitised and accessible in the future (tongue firmly in cheek!) - just think of what we could find! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 The names listed include men buried in Wieltje Farm, Bridge House & Ypres Town Extension as well as TORROME in Poelkapelle. The others are annotated 'Menin Gate' or 'Tyne Cot'. Those with graves have the note that the cross has been 'removed'. Bridge House....that's interesting. It was an original cemetery, not post-armistice, only 41 (I think) known buried there. So a memorial cross to one man must have been recovered (presumably) post-armistice, placed at Potijze, then subsequently the fact this man was buried at Bridge House came to light. But this would not have been as the result of moving, or recovering the body later.....and surely IWGC would just have made Bridge House permanent, with the graves as they existed? Terry, do you know which man at Bridge House this refers to, or didn't the detail cover that? Or was it a general cross (as Gardiners we now know was), to men who had died. Idle curiosity I know.................but interesting! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Terry. Thanks for providing these details. I thought in one of the earlier posts it was pointed out that only 1 NCO of 12 HLI had died on that day. However, I suppose that one of the Privates could have been acting as an NCO at the time and was regarded as such by the men who made the cross - but not by the Army when they came to provide details to CWGC. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Bridge House was HELYAR - S Staffs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Terry. Is there a full list of the men who had memorials in this row? Thanks. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 No, as I didn't ask for one but two others I know were FLAVELL S Staffs (Wieltje) and MURCUTT Middx Regt (Ypres Town Extn) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest geoff501 Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Didn't notice Aurel's mention. Must have missed that one! Easily done in this thread. My payment is too late and I've missed my chance, but here it is anyway, sorry I only have 50 roubles (= 0.98GBP !) but at least my email is on the back as requested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 I wonder how many laws these pics of banknotes are breaking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Thanks Terry. I have a question about following. On the cross and Menin Gate Gardiner is commemorated as a Captain. In an earlier post it seems that I have seen that he was 'acting Captain' his real rank being 2nd Lieutenant?. Is this common practise?. As Neil says some soldiers may also have acted as NCO which would naturally explain the presence of NCO's in plurial on the cross. Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Jacky All I can say is that CWGC use the rank given to them by the military authorities. However, they do not use the terms 'Acting' or 'Temporary' in their styling of UK army officer ranks which suggests that it was the custom of the army not to add this prefix when supplying names. Are we sure that he was not made up to Captain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Terry - thank you very much for offering the final answer to the original question. Although this is the answer we had been expecting for some time, I cannot help but feel a little disappointed and sad on behalf of Gardiner and co. Thank you also to everyone else for contributing so much intelligence, time, energy and enthusiasm to such an enthralling thread over the last few weeks. It has been a pleasure debating with you. Sabine - when you are ready, you can unleash the next mystery (though give me some time to recover first!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 It seems Gardiner's service record refers to him almost exclusively as a Second Lieutnenant as that was his Gazetted substantive rank up to his death. After his death he was Gazetted as a temporary (i.e. hostilities only) Lieutenant, under which rank his Service Record was filed. He was acting Captain whilst a temporary Second Lieutenant and a temporary Lieutenant (presumably he had been told of his substantive promotion before his death even though it had not then been officially Gazetted). Whilst when the searching the Gazette you can never be quite sure you have everything, the fact that the promotion was gazetted after his death leads me to believe that Lieutenant would be his final rank. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest geoff501 Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 I wonder how many laws these pics of banknotes are breaking! point taken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 I think currency with camel pictures is specifically excluded from any such laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Terry, Thanks ! Though on the other hand as someone else remarked, this leaves us with a sense of emptiness now ... And you are the one to blame ! Yes, I had mentioned the earth in front of Row A* being flat on Sabine's photo, but I think someone else had done the same, maybe even before me. Wasn't it Mrs. Roxy ? Yet, I found it strange that on Alan's photo (taken 1 year later ?) the earth in front of Row A* looked like in front of the other rows A - G. (As if they were treated as real graves.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabine72 Posted 16 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 16 August , 2006 hello, thank you Terry for the answers. Now I know, and I agree with aurel, It leaves me with a strange feeling, emptyness and sadness. To andrew, I need to recover too. so no new mystery for the next few weeks. thanks to all sabine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 16 August , 2006 Share Posted 16 August , 2006 Thanks Steve. Could Army Lists enlighten us on the matter ?. Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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