a soldier who used to have a grave

[Alan_J]

Alan

My point was a general one about the terminology and not referring to this or any other cemetery in particular.

Terry,

Acepted - but do you have any general information on what was being done prior to the decision to inscribe names on Memorials to the Missing? As you say, there were initially suggestions to commemorate each soldier by name in cemeteries near where they went missing - I wondered whether CWGC might have anything on whether this process was started in some way and if so how?

I'll start (later!) another thread on Chocques, to try and avoid side-tracing this one. Or maybe Aurel should, as he picked up the terminology of these Suffolk soldiers (plus I'm still meant to be working!)

Alan

[Terry Denham]

The 'one man - one headstone' idea was a very early one and no decision was made to adopt it for various reasons - mostly practical ones. So no process was started to create this scenario.

At the time many/most of the cemeteries were still under army control (the Directorate of Graves Registration and Enquiries). They were responsible for the management of the cemeteries until each was individually turned over to IWGC.

The Commission's role at this time, as far as names was concerned, was amassing and collating their card index records of the dead and their burial locations (or none). They also started publishing registers for each cemetery they had taken over in 1920.

The DofGR&E existed as an army unit from 1916 till 1921 and operated in parallel with IWGC - the latter taking over responsibility for each cemetery in turn and, after 1921, responsibility for dealing with NoK re burials.

The two organisations often get blurred though as Maj-Gen Fabian Ware was Director General of DofGR&E whilst also being Vice-Chairman of IWGC.

[Auimfo]

Ian,

Nice find but I think Aurel might be right here. Pullen is still remembered at Potijze on a special 'Known to be' or 'Believed to be' memorial near the great cross (at the rear of Plot II). I think these were the memorials being referred to in the documents, not the suspected memorial row at A*.

Then again, it's quite possible that some of the crosses in A* actually refer to men buried in Potijze whose graves have been lost and were later to become these same special memorials???

What confuses me about Pullen is that he's listed as being originally buried at Frost House Cemetery which doesn't appear to have become a permanent cemetery after the war. Now to have a special memorial at Potijze saying he's believed to be buried there would mean that at some point in time, his body was located and exhumed from Frost House by the Graves Reg. Unit and transferred to Potijze. So how did it become lost?

But even more confusing is something I noticed when I was having a look at his service records on-line. Every document relating to his death states that he was killed on 4/11/17 and was buried 3 miles SW of Bapaume, France. (example below)

Surely this is a little far to be relocating a body when there are any number of cemeteries in the Bapaume area. I wonder if Frost House Cemetery was in the Bapaume vicinity?

Perhaps we've identified another Potijze mystery man!!

Tim L.

[Terry Denham]

Tim

Not necessarily referring to this case but bodies were often moved many miles for reburial.

It was not the case of moving to the nearest cemetery but to the nearest which was still open for burials or to those which the army/IWGC had agreed should be expanded into large concentration cemeteries. Not all cemeteries could be expanded for a number of reasons including ownership of any land needed for such increases in size.

[Auimfo]

Ian,

Just saw Fischer's file and noticed that Frost House was near Ypres. But that still doesn't explain Pullen's apparant burial near Bapaume

Tim L.

[Auimfo]

Terry,

Ok, I accept that but surely a soldier wouldn't have to be moved from Bapaume, France to Ypres, Belgium and then once more to Potijze?

It does seem an excessively long way and a little unusual isn't it?

Tim L.

[ian turner]

Tim,

Was there a special row (ie. as per today's) in these old views?

Today's special row seems to be an IWGC creation, not from the time of these old pics.

Sgt Fischer's records (I posted above one of his pages) show Frost House around Ypres. I suspect Pullen's record mention of Bapaume is a mistake, as is the date of death being incorrect and subsequently amended.

Ian

[Auimfo]

Ian,

The photos are a little inconclusive as to whether a 'special memorial' row existed in it's preseent day location. I suspect that the crosses in A* are made up of battlefield crosses where no body was recovered and crosses of soldiers originally buried in Potijze during the war i.e. Plot I, but whose gave had been misplaced during the course of further fighting. Assuming Pullen was actually buried in Potijze, perhaps he's one of this last group.

Regarding Pullen - perhaps we need to find out where the 5th Pioneer Battalion was in November 1917. Fischer was with the Artillery so that's no link to Pullen.

Tim L.

[ian turner]

Tim,

Or even the 5th Pioneer Bn?

Ian

[Auimfo]

Damn, I thought I'd edited it in time

[Auimfo]

And it looks as though Bapaume may indeed be wrong. I just checked the AWM site for other 5th Pioneers killed on the same day and there were two others - both buried at Perth Cemetery (China Wall) Zillebeke.

Just a big red herring after all.

Tim L.

[ian turner]

Tim,

It will take time, but maybe the thing to do is study the records of AIF 5th Pioneers and 22 Bn AIF who are on the Menin Gate (for dates around Oct 1917) rather than those mentioned today in Potizje.

Now, if we could see some who are on the Menin Gate and had a memorial cross in Potijze, then I would be on my way to Belgium to collect that beer. Aurel, Aurel, where are you! Keeping them cold I hope!!

I only pretend to work during the day - this would make me really look busy!!

Ian

[Terry Denham]

Some of the burial confusion in the immediate post-war period can be explained by the following extract from Longworth's 'The Unending Vigil' concerning the state of record keeping following the mass demobilisation of troops working in the Directorate of Graves Registration & Enquiries.

_________________

" The local Directorate offices in France were 'becoming choked with reports and documents which cannot be typed and kept in order owing to the absence of clerical staff capable of dealing with them'. As a result of this, it was failing to supply records or cemetery plans to the Commission." and

"the inevitable result was that the Commission took over responsibility for many cemeteries in much worse condition than it was entitled to expect."

[Auimfo]

And just to confirm Pullen's death near Ypres, he's one of the accounts of his death from the Red Cross Missing and Wounded files

Tim L.

P.S. It's 2.20am so I'm off to bed. I'll catch up with the rest tomorrow.

[Alan_J]

" The local Directorate offices in France were 'becoming choked with reports and documents which cannot be typed and kept in order owing to the absence of clerical staff capable of dealing with them'. As a result of this, it was failing to supply records or cemetery plans to the Commission." and

"the inevitable result was that the Commission took over responsibility for many cemeteries in much worse condition than it was entitled to expect."

Terry,

Thanks for the info - as these would have been Army records that were choking the offices, presumably CWGC would not have these anyway?

In which case, unless they were preserved and are now at the National Archives (and I can't find anything that might be them by searching), they must now be gone....

Alan

[Terry Denham]

All existing army burial records were turned over to IWGC.

They still hold these but they are their working documents and not available to the public. They are currently being digitised for internal use (five year project). However, the CWGC website hints (only hints) that wider availability may follow at some future point.

[Alan_J]

Ahh...so it's those records! I've seen various items about how they may be made public at some point.....

Well then, a glimmer of hope - maybe in five years we'll be able to answer some of the questions we have posed in this thread for sure.

The beer should be well-matured by that time..................

Alan

[sabine72]

Hello,

Finally read all the post since I left last night,

I only can say when we all meet at potyze we will have to drink that duvel (I'll have water) in st. Jan because there is no pub at the potyze anymore. Sorry guys, the last one closed years ago.

But still it is a great idea that one day we could all go together to the cemetery an pay our respects to all the man who are buried there.

sabine( with a headache again)

[Andrew Hesketh]

Terry - let me grab you whilst you are here. Do you know if CWGC has trench map references for recovered memorials / grave markers where no body could be found (as they were for recovered bodies)? I expect a 'No', but it will just put my mind at rest over something that's been bugging me for the last few days (as you will no doubt have noticed from my last few posts).

Ian - some good digging in those archives. At least you've confirmed the placing of memorials at Potijze, which I reckon just about nails any faint hope of Gardiner and chums actually being buried there.

[Aurel Sercu]

Aurel,

1. I am not suggesting the cross says Pullen, but it might involve 5th Aus Pioneers?

2. However the papers confirm the existance of a MEMORIAL ROW in plot II!!

Isn't that what we want to know???

Ian

Ian,

1. Well, as you know I do read "Pioneers" on the double cross, but what precedes it, in my opinion, is : 16(th) Royal Irish Rifles.

2. I'm afraid I can't follow anymore. A little confused... Yes, the papers confirm the existence of a Memorial Row. But we know there is a memorial row indeed, for it is there. Behind Row G, against the boundary of the cemetery. 12 headstones, 7 of them "Known to be buried" among them Pullen, and 5 "Believed to be buried."

But maybe I have misunderstood you ?

Aurel

[Terry Denham]

Andrew

I have never heard of such a thing and I can't think of a reason why they would want one as they have no relevance to the men in their care - those with graves!

The army did the recovering anyway and they obviously recorded finding bodies - the records which CWGC now has. I cannot imagine the army recording finding no body as a basic list other than (I am guessing) in the notes of the searching unit to record their work activities on a particular day. I have never heard of any such records surviving en masse.

The surviving records are all tied to the body found with its location and any identifying evidence. Having seen pics of piles of discarded wooden crosses and stories of them being used for firewood, I cannot believe the individual items were always treated with reverence - although CWGC did initially offer them to relatives when replaced by headstones. Neither can I believe that the existance of a cross in a particular place was always a guaranteed sign of a body being there - the cross could have been wrongly positioned or moved.

[Aurel Sercu]

Aurel, Aurel, where are you! Keeping them cold I hope!!

Ian

Ian,

Well, from approx. 4 p.m. till 6 p.m. I was mowing my lawn. (Pleasing Mrs. Sercu.)

Then I took my bike and went to a cemetery northeast of Ypres. You can guess 3 times which one it was ...

What I wanted to do there ? Making a plan on which I marked all the Unknowns in Plot II. (Some are Scottish, Irish, Canadian, Australian, etc.) I'll tell you later why I did that.

Then I cycled on to Aeroplane Cemetery. Where I was welcomed by ... a magpie ! Who took off as soon as he saw me !

Aurel

P.S. No problem when you see my wife to tell her that I went cycling. She knows. But don't mention the name of the cemetery. However, sooner or later she will find out. For though she is blond, she is intelligent. Especially when it comes to knowing where I am / have been / will be.

[Andrew Hesketh]

Terry - thanks for that. I was just wondering if the army had passed anything of the kind on to IWGC. Obviously not.

[ian turner]

Aurel,

Aw, don't dash my hopes! I was so excited to discover the 'Memorial Row' in Potijze, and which seemed to predate IWGC! And now I also learn there is no nearby pub....

Well, no further forward then. But I can only guess again - Pullen, we have just seen (and others) were moved from elsewhere, and were not originally buried at Potijze Chateau. If that is the case, how come they got lost? Seems like we have gone round in another circle! Maybe they were in ''our row'' and then the graves were lost. Enter Capt Gardiner.....

Time to withdraw for a rethink!

Cheers

Ian

[Aurel Sercu]

While I was mowing my lawn, pleasing my wife and cycling to the Potijze and Aeroplane Cemetery, quite a few postings have been added, and I will re-read them more thoroughly later tonight.

Only this.

1. Sabine is right. When I was at the Potijze roundabout, I looked for pubs... But there are none anymore... (I also took a photo of the 'potijze', I mean the object in the middle of the roundabout. Maybe I will post it, or add it to one of my previous postings, the one about the name and pronunciation of 'Potijze'.

2. My heart 'jumped up with delight' when I read about a Frost House Cemetery. Some of you may know that for the past 2 years I have been trying to collect information about all the Disappeared Cemeteries in the Ypres Salient and the rest of the Province West-Flanders (launched in this by Terry D.). All nationalities. 500 or 600 so far.

This Potijze thread is - with respect to my research - very frustrating : here we are talking about Plot II, in which there are more than 200 graves, and of none of these men I know what cemetery in the area they were brought in ! I know, some of these 'burial grounds' maybe were too small to be called a cemetery, and yet...

So at least I can add one Disappeared Cemetery to my list ! Thanks for mentioning it !

Aurel