a soldier who used to have a grave

[Ridds]

Maybe I should go back to have a closer look at all these 100 or so Unknowns. The problem is that so far all afternoon I have been at this PC, whereas my wife wanted me to mow the lawn. And all the time I said : Wait a few minutes... And a few minutes ago it ... started to rain, making it impossible for me to mow the lawn. She does not find this amusing. But I do !

The problem is, however : Can I take my bike now and cycle to the Potijze ? She would not find that amusing either.

Aurel

If only I had taken the time to come online and read the new posts in this topic... before I went to Potijze!

If I had known I'd have gotten there earlier... I was there from about 7.45pm til 8.15pm... sigh... could have gone for a beer then (Sint-Jan isn't that far after all).

This time around I even left a little message about the search for the missing row along with a tribute to the fallen... and I did have my camera with me, had forgotten about that on sunday

I went around the entire ground again, and also noticed the 'British Officer of the Great War' wondering if it... even took a picture of it and will see if I can put up some of the pictures tomorrow. (The ones where the missus and the kids aren't blocking the sight )

If there is anything you guys want a close up of, just tell me and I'll go round there again, still have a couple of days off work, and anything that can get me away from household chores is welcomed !

Ridds

[Aurel Sercu]

I went around the entire ground again, and also noticed the 'British Officer of the Great War' wondering if it... even took a picture of it and will see if I can put up some of the pictures tomorrow.

Ridds

Ridds,

You arrived at 7.45 ? I left at 7.35 !

But I had promised my wife to be back home by 8 ! (I know, this will make me the henpecked husband of this Topic. And I am already considered the magpie-pecked pal...

Anyway, one of the reasons I went back today as I said was to have a closer look at the Unknowns, more specifically that Unknown British Officer.

Suppose that maybe (maybe !) somehow (somehow !) he was Captain G. ? Of course I did not expect to see anything that could prove that. (I wouldn't know what could !) But I thought it was worth trying.

Two things that in a way 'disprove' the man is Captain G.

1. He is in Row F, as Grave 4.

Graves 1, 2, 3 are Unknowns. So these won't help us.

Graves 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 21, 22, 24, 27, 29 are Unknowns too. (6 a Northumberlmand Fusilier. they won't help us either.

One of the few (9 to be exact) named graves is N° 5, the British Officer's 'neighbour'. And he is a Hampshire Regiment man, fallen on 16 May 1918. Battalion and date too different from Gardiner's.

2. There is something else, which I did not like. Michael Scott (Ypres Salient) says about "Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery "Plot II was created after the Armistice". The present register (and also the info on the cemetery on line) says : "Plot II was formed after the Armistice when graves were brought in from isolated sites and small burial grounds TO THE NORTHEAST". (I think somebody has already quoted that, many days ago.)

I must say until now I had not really paid attention to these last words. The problem is : we don't know with certainty where exactly Captain Gardiner and the other 12/HLI men fell, but can't we say it was SOUTH of the cemetery ? Someone (was that Steve ?) posted a map, with the position of 12/HLI, and that was south of the cemetery, where that observation construction still is now, near Hussar Farm.

(Of course, the words "small burial grounds to the northeast" do not necessarily imply that there were no exceptions, that some may come from other directions.)

(By the way, I do realize that there may have been, and probably were other British officers who fell nearby and who have no known grave. So even if there were indications that maybe this man could be Captain Gardiner ...)

Summing up : so far no "proof" that Captain Gardiner's remains may (may !) be one of the Unknowns in Plot II.

Aurel

[Andrew Hesketh]

I'm following this latest idea about the unknown British Officer closely.

I don't want to bore you yet again with my rantings about trench map references, but if this man was moved to Potijze from elsewhere, CWGC would know the original location.

[Aurel Sercu]

Aurel,

(...)

I can only guess again - Pullen, we have just seen (and others) were moved from elsewhere, and were not originally buried at Potijze Chateau. If that is the case, how come they got lost? Seems like we have gone round in another circle! Maybe they were in ''our row'' and then the graves were lost. Enter Capt Gardiner.....

Cheers

Ian

Ian,

Maybe before answering I should reread everything that was said about Pullen and Fischer and Baker again, and more thoroughly, first... Anyway, here we go.

- Suppose that somewhere near Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery there was a small burial place, with, let's say 10 graves.

- After the Armistice it was decided to take all of them to Potijze CGC.

- When that small burial place was made, some time in 1917 (the year that Pullen was killed) records were made, so that the names were known of who was buried there.

- But in Fourth Ypres the front lines had come closer again, German shelling etc., and some of the crosses were tossed about. Let's say three. And it was impossible to say which graves these 3 crosses belonged to.

So, all the men from that small burial place were taken to Potijze CGC,and reburied there. And got a headstone. With a name on. Except ... those 3 men. They were buried as 3 Unknowns. It was known at that time that these Unknown graves A, B and C were soldiers X, Y and Z, but it was impossible to say whether grave A was X, Y or Z.

(I know, the remains could have been searched, trying to find items that would allow a name ID, but let's say that for some reason this was not or could not be done.)

- And so : it was absolutely sure that these 3 men were in that cemetery, but impossible to say where.

- And : a Special Memorial was erected to these 3 men X, Y and Z, "Known to be buried in this cemetery".

I hope I'm right. (Terry ? I'm sure you remember I asked you a question about these "Believed's" and "Known's" more than once. Do I turn out to be a good student ?

And it's only an example of course.

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

I'm following this latest idea about the unknown British Officer closely.

I don't want to bore you yet again with my rantings about trench map references, but if this man was moved to Potijze from elsewhere, CWGC would know the original location.

Andrew,

Yes.

Aurel

[Alan_J]

The present register (and also the info on the cemetery on line) says : "Plot II was formed after the Armistice when graves were brought in from isolated sites and small burial grounds TO THE NORTHEAST". (I think somebody has already quoted that, many days ago.)

And yet, at least one Australian soldier now in Plot 2 was moved there from Bedford House Cemetery (Plot 2 there) - certainly not to the nrorth-east of Potijze!

So we needn't necessarily rule it out!

Alan

[Ridds]

Just a thought...

but what if the fellow who wrote the 'brought in from the north-east' wasn't at Potijze, but at Ieper, looking over a map at his desk, and info on the various cemeteries in front of him.

That would make for a lot more places to be considered north-east than looking at it from Potijze, and for some reason I find it hard to believe that those words would have been written whilst standing at the entrance of Potijze chateau....

It would still be correct as Potijze is situated to the north-east of Ieper (or at least I thought it was last time I checked)

So 'brought in from the north-east' would be a rather relative term imho.

As I said, just an idea, feel free to think of me as a complete nutter, I know plenty of people that do

(still wouldn't explain the Australian being moved from Bedford House though, seeing as that would be directly south from Ieper )

I'm following this latest idea about the unknown British Officer closely.

I don't want to bore you yet again with my rantings about trench map references, but if this man was moved to Potijze from elsewhere, CWGC would know the original location.

Indeed, but Gardinger never did have a known grave... only thing we could hope for then would be to get a location close to the spot where he fell, and even then it wouldn't prove that it is him underneath that marker.

[Aurel Sercu]

Ridds,

Mmmm ..

Personally I think "northeast" is seen from Potijze. But I wouldn't know how to prove that.

Except that I have seen similar things (1 mile west of ... a few hundred yards east of ...) in descriptions and historical information of other cemeteries in the Salient, and in these cases it was clearly seen from the cemetery itself.

Who wrote this information ? I suppose an editor of the early CWGC registers ? (late 1920s ?) The modern registers (I think) often only give a reduced version of what these originals gave. For instance these originals mentioned cemeteries in the area that were removed to the cemetery that the register is about. (Some modern registers still do that now.) I suppose that at a given moment some did not go into these details anymore, and "summarized" a number of smaller cemeteries and burial places into something like "batllefields northeast of ..." "north of ...". And doing so ignored possible exceptions, as being unimportant details.

Aurel

[Andrew Hesketh]

Indeed, but Gardinger never did have a known grave...

Ah, but we don't know that for certain!

[Auimfo]

Aurel,

Very good and plausible explanation about Pullen. But surely in that case the two or three bodies would be buried together and headstones with their names erected on top (or perhaps double headstones etc). I would have thought that the 'Known to be's' or 'Believed to be's' were one's whose grave was misplaced entirely.

What would be interesting to find out is when Pullen and Fischer were moved to Potijze. If they were moved before wars end they would have originally been in Plot I and perhaps the 'tide of war' lost their graves. But the DGR&E notes seem to imply that they were concentrated into Potijze after the war - all documents regarding burial at Potijze are dated 1921 onwards and the relatives are notified in 1925. This, then begs the question - how did the graves of these two men become lost?

Andrew,

I see what you're getting at. If by chance the grid reference of the location where the "Unknown Officer' was found points to a place very close to where Gardiner was killed or his cross located, we could hazard a guess that it may be him. Of course this could never be proved beyond doubt but it certainly would be a good indicator.

Tim L.

I think this thread has a few twists and turns in it yet!!

[Ridds]

Ridds,

Mmmm ..

Personally I think "northeast" is seen from Potijze. But I wouldn't know how to prove that.

Except that I have seen similar things (1 mile west of ... a few hundred yards east of ...) in descriptions and historical information of other cemeteries in the Salient, and in these cases it was clearly seen from the cemetery itself.

Who wrote this information ? I suppose an editor of the early CWGC registers ? (late 1920s ?) The modern registers (I think) often only give a reduced version of what these originals gave. For instance these originals mentioned cemeteries in the area that were removed to the cemetery that the register is about. (Some modern registers still do that now.) I suppose that at a given moment some did not go into these details anymore, and "summarized" a number of smaller cemeteries and burial places into something like "batllefields northeast of ..." "north of ...". And doing so ignored possible exceptions, as being unimportant details.

Aurel

Thanks for clearing that one out for me Aurel

Ah, but we don't know that for certain!

Andrew plz, don't make me plow through all these posts again ... I'm quite sure I've seen evidence being brought forward dating as far back as a couple of days after his death where it was said that there wasn't a known location of a grave.

Guess I will be going through them again, but it will have to wait til this afternoon

[Andrew Hesketh]

Andrew plz, don't make me plow through all these posts again ...

... I'm quite sure I've seen evidence being brought forward dating as far back as a couple of days after his death where it was said that there wasn't a known location of a grave.

Ridds, you are correct. A letter sent to his wife stated:

"He was killed near Ypres on the 31st July, by heavy shell fire whilst in a trench with his company. His death was almost immediate. His company was badly scattered by the shelling, and later moved forward, so I have not yet any details of his burial. "

But this does not prove there was or was not a grave. I agree that it may have been unlikely. The nature of his death, by shell fire,may mean that there was little or nothing to recover or that his remains were buried by the explosions. However we cannot say for ceratin that he was not found and buried and then lost again.

I made a mistake a few pages ago of using the word 'definite' on this thread. I shall not do that again!

[ian turner]

Aurel,

I tend to think that any 'unknowns' being concentrated would have had individual graves and been marked thus, not just left to a special memorial row - ie. as per Tim's comments.

I doubt they were concentrated during wartime, so it seems to me their graves (Pullen/Fischer) were lost postwar. Or were they ever concentrated at all, and just their crosses found and put in 'our row'?

I still cannot credit 'our row' to have been simply lost by the IWGC and the individuals there placed on the Menin Gate. Surely in such a case they would have all received 'known to be buried' special memorials,

including Gardiner and Cobbold?

It seems just when I thought we were close to a solution, the mystery has thickened itself once more!

Ian

[Aurel Sercu]

Indeed, but Gardinger never did have a known grave... only thing we could hope for then would be to get a location close to the spot where he fell, and even then it wouldn't prove that it is him underneath that marker.

Ridds,

Andrew has already answered ("Ah, but we don't know that for certain.")

I would even say :

My opinion is that Gardiner did have a grave + marker(*) Somewhere in a small burial place south (?) of Potijze. But later (1919) when these remains were exhumed (if they were) and moved to Potijze CGC (if they were) it appeared impossible to ID them. But the marker (commemorative cross) was taken to Potijze CGC.

(Well, at least I think that this is a theory that we (or some of us) had reached a consensus about.)

Aurel

(*) Added a quarter of an hour later after reading Andrew's posting about the nature of Gardiner's death.

Well, maybe not a real grave, but "something". A cross or so on or near where his remains and of the other men who died with him probably were.

[ian turner]

Continuing to trawl throught Australian records - looking at 22Bn and 5th Bn - many files so far frustratingly not yet open, and 'still to be examined'.

Here, however is another interesting 'missing'.

Pvte Frank Henry Cole, today on Menin Gate, but.....

(see record)

maybe a few 'mystery rows' elsewhere?

Ian

[ian turner]

My guess is that the above points to the custom of (temporary) storage of memorial crosses pending final commemoration, as discussed yesterday.

I still think 'our row' falls into that category.

Ian

[Aurel Sercu]

Aurel,

1. Very good and plausible explanation about Pullen. But surely in that case the two or three bodies would be buried together and headstones with their names erected on top (or perhaps double headstones etc).

2. I would have thought that the 'Known to be's' or 'Believed to be's' were one's whose grave was misplaced entirely.

3. What would be interesting to find out is when Pullen and Fischer were moved to Potijze. If they were moved before wars end they would have originally been in Plot I and perhaps the 'tide of war' lost their graves. But the DGR&E notes seem to imply that they were concentrated into Potijze after the war - all documents regarding burial at Potijze are dated 1921 onwards and the relatives are notified in 1925. This, then begs the question - how did the graves of these two men become lost?

Tim,

1. This could happen, but I'm not so sure it did happen. And I'm not sure if it was common practice to treat such remains the way you say. So much depends on how things went in practice when all these remains were exhumed, transported to another (concentration) cemetery, arrived there, were reburied. I think this often must have been a chaotic situation (esp. large concentration cemeteries like Cement House Cemetery Langemark, or Poelkapelle British Cemetery, or Tyne Cot Cemetery.)

(By the way yesterday I noticed something rather odd in Potijze CGC Row C, I mean with regard to bodies being buried together. The 5th and the 6th headstone in that Row are 2 different men, but officially (= in the register) they have the same number (II.C.5). And the 7th headstone has 2 names, both officially II.C.6. Which means that in Row C there are 31 headstones (whereas in all the other rows there are 30.

But I guess this is not really relevant in this Topic.)

2. I hesitate to suggest this, but if ever Terry sees this, and really does not know what to do with his spare time, maybe .... ? (So it appears that I am not such a good student after all.)

3. Sorry, I don't know if it happened that graves were moved before the end of the war. Do you think this happened ? Seems a bit unlikely ? (Apart maybe from some very exceptional cases ? But I don't think : systematically, or in an organized way.)

Already there in 1919 ? Have you tried to tire your eyes (with or without magnifying glass), in order to find out if on Sabine's photo (1919) or Alan's (1920 ?) there is a row behind A* - A - B - C - D - E - F - G ?

I have. Sometimes I think there isn't, sometimes I think there is...

(By the way, you mention Pullen + Fischer. Yes, they were from Frost House Cemetery. This was 3 miles NE of Potijze. Somehow I remember Geoff writing about Baker. He was from an unnamed cemetery "3 miles NE of Potijze". Could that be the same Frost House Cemetery ? (And Baker was reburied in A.3)

(And a last By the way. Geoff, should you read this ...Yesterday evening I took a photo of Baker's headstone. If you are interested for some reason, let me know.)

[Aurel Sercu]

Aurel,

1. I tend to think that any 'unknowns' being concentrated would have had individual graves and been marked thus, not just left to a special memorial row - ie. as per Tim's comments.

2. I doubt they were concentrated during wartime, so it seems to me their graves (Pullen/Fischer) were lost postwar. Or were they ever concentrated at all, and just their crosses found and put in 'our row'?

I still cannot credit 'our row' to have been simply lost by the IWGC and the individuals there placed on the Menin Gate. Surely in such a case they would have all received 'known to be buried' special memorials,

including Gardiner and Cobbold?

It seems just when I thought we were close to a solution, the mystery has thickened itself once more!

Ian

Ian,

1. This refers to my posting # 569 I guess ? Maybe you misread (or maybe I misunderstand you, wouldn't be the first time ), but I wrote that such unknowns would have an individual grave ("Unknown") AND a Special Memorial.

2. I doubt that too. Somehow I think they were concentrated there, but the identitity of the remains was lost (?)

3. I wish I could say something about this point. But "our row" = A* (Gardiner's Row) ? That's what you mean, I guess ? (Stupid question, I know, but I just want to be sure. Bit puzzled because in 2. you mention Fischer and Pullen's crosses (possibly) in 'our row'. Is there any probability they were in A* ?

And a last stupid question. Yes, I know I could find the answer while ploughing through the almost 600 previous postings, but don't make it hard on me. Just this : putting all things together, what is your opinion now about Row A* (Gardiner's row)

a. Gravemarkers + graves with remains. (And then there is a real mystery : what happened to these graves ??!!)

b. Only gravemarkers (memorial crosses), no graves with remains. (And then there is no mystery : the gravemarkers, which may have been meant to become memorial crosses, were removed when it was clear that these names would be on the Menin Gate Memorial)

(My opinion : b.)

Added 3 minutes later :

Ian, after reading your posting # 581 I realize that your opinion is b. too)

Is there anybody out there who still thinks that it is a ? That it still is probable (or very very probable, or maybe only a bit probable) that on Sabine's and Alan's photo Row A* has graves ?

Aurel

[Auimfo]

I doubt they were concentrated during wartime, so it seems to me their graves (Pullen/Fischer) were lost postwar. Or were they ever concentrated at all, and just their crosses found and put in 'our row'?

Ian,

The bodies must have been moved from Frost House to Potijze otherwise they couldn't have a 'known to be' or 'believed to be' special memorial which states their bodies are buried there. If only their crosses were concentrated to Potijze then they'd now be remembered on the Menin Gate with Gardiner and the rest.

Therefore I can only conclude that their graves were misplaced at Potijze postwar. I wonder if they were interred in A*, surrounded by memorial crosses and subsequently mistaken for being memorials only. By the time the error was realized, the graves were lost and special memorials designated instead.

I've just carefully re-read the IWGC memo, posted by Ian (and again here by me). It sounds to me that someone had realized a mistake had been made was confirming Pullen and Fischer were actually buried at Potijze.

Tim L.

[Terry Denham]

I've just carefully re-read the IWGC memo, posted by Ian (and again here by me). It sounds to me that someone had realized a mistake had been made was confirming Pullen and Fischer were actually buried at Potijze.

Tim

Small point...

This is not an IWGC memo. It is an army document to IWGC.

It appears to be the army confirming that these two have been moved from Frost to Potijze as you say - presumably after IWGC queried the names on a list after finding no graves for them at Potijze and wanting to confirm that they should have SMs.

[Aurel Sercu]

Well, at least it answers a question I asked in my posting # 582. Whether the Special Crosses Row is visible on Sabine's and Alan's postcards. No of course not. They were erected later than 8 Oct 1921.

(Sorry, Ian, I should have noticed that when you posted the document yesterday.)

Aurel

[ian turner]

Found another Aussie - Pvte J Crawford, 22 Bn A I F.

Today - on Menin Gate,

Then - Memorial Cross at China wall Cemy

Also his record shows word 'buried' (no location - think my have been a clerical guess).

I won't bother to post the images, as they do not necessarily add to our own researches into Potijze, but I think it safe to say that there were certainly holding places allocated at cemeteries for memorial crosses, pending final and permanent commemoration.

Now, the problem comes that whilst it seems 'our row' (yes, Aurel = A*) looks to have been such a memorial row, we seem to have found some lost graves in Fischer and Pullen. Thus, as I think Aurel mentions, we cannot exclude the possibility of lost graves amongst 'our row'?

Certainly the ground around A* seems undisturbed by burial, but I fear continued uncertainty.

So, Aurel, my opinion today seems to be somewhere between (a) and ( - maybe lost, and presumed buried amongst this thread....

Ian

[ian turner]

For some reason the above post does not read properly and I CANNOT EDIT IT!

I meant to say between (a) and ( - it still won't edit should read bee - between ay and bee!

Ian

[Aurel Sercu]

Just in case someone takes a special interest in these Special Memorials. These are the names of the Row at the back of Plot II.

Known :

W. Fischer, Australian Field Artillery, 15/10/17

F. Pullen, 5th Austr. Pioneers, 4/11/17

Believed :

G. Hall, Lanc. Fus., 30/11/17

E. Williams, RAMC, 10/10/17

Lt. A. Graham, Sco Rif, 26/9/17

V. Morris, KRRC, 26/9/17

A. Pearce, KRRC, 26/9/17

Known (all R.E., 3/5/15)

R. Norsworthy

G. Lamkin

H. Jones

F. Blondun

W. Barnes

(All taken from my written notes when in the cemetery, not from the CWGC on line reports. And as my handwriting ... I hope they are all correct.)

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

For some reason the above post does not read properly and I CANNOT EDIT IT!

I meant to say between (a) and ( - it still won't edit should read bee - between ay and bee!

Ian

OK, Ian, I understand. Something between ay and bee. Tends to be my opinion too.

And I'm glad you seem to have the same problem as I have experineced a couble of times. When you type a letter b followed by a closing bracket, Chris Baker somehow changes this into a smiley.

I'll try :

a) c) d) e) f)

ADDED 1 minute later :

See ?! It happened again !

Chris, have you really nothing else to do ?

Aurel