a soldier who used to have a grave

[Aurel Sercu]

This post bears no relation to the previous ones (with regard to service records and correspondence and similar things, very inteersting, but I cannot add anything). So I hesitate to break this discussion off (for a while), but as I want to satisfy my curiosity ...

Just this. When some time (I think early 1920s or so) IWGC took over from the army, and started the final lay-out of the cemetery (-ies), erecting headstones etc. ... When theymade the inscriptions on the headstones, was this based

- on what they saw (read) on the standard crosses at the time of the lay-out,

- or was it based on written records (handed to them by the Army) ?

What I mean is : suppose that it was based on what they saw at the time of the final lay-out ... What if names had disappeared ? Or who knows , crosses had disappeared ? Or names had become unreadable ... Or if parts of crosses had been broken off and were gone ... ? Would in such case the grave become an "Unknown", and later be a name on the Menin Gate (or Tyne Cot) Memorial ?

Personally I think the headstones were made and inscriptions written based on existing written records. And I think that (concerning a different piece of research of mine) this is what Terry Denham told me, some years ago. I just want confirmation of this.

This is only remotely related to our Potijze Enigma. Though of course it has some connection with the Cobbold Problem. On Sabine's photo (1919) the name is readable, and then a year or so later, on Alan's photo (1920 ?), both arms of the cross are gone, and Cobbold's name is gone completely. So : that's the reason he became a name on the Menin Gate ? (This of course starts from the conviction that row A* are graveless gravemarkers. (Which is not my conviction. Not yet.)

And of course I do not want to suggest that ALL names on the crosses of A* (25 - 30 crosses) had disappeared.

Just curious.

Aurel

Ian, thanks for the recapitulation and the summary you made a few postings ago. This is absolutely necessary indeed. Even if not all Topic pals share the same opinion about a specific point.

Another thing is that often thoughts and convictions that were advanced in the early days of this topic appear to be completely dated after a few days, and even wrong. (Some of mine too. Like e.g. when I claimed that row A* (if they are graves) came from battlefield burial places in the area. Later I became convinced that Row A* does not belong to Plot 2.)

I suppose that for a Forum member "discovering" this Topic only now, and plunging into it, this must be a nightmare !

[Terry Denham]

Aurel

You are correct.

The burial returns coming from the army were taken as the basic data source. No doubt any major discrepancies against what appeared 'on the ground' would have been checked as far as possible but it is my understanding that the burial returns were taken as 'correct'.

Crosses could have been moved or removed etc and so were not necessarily reliable.

[Aurel Sercu]

Terry,

Thanks ! I won't forget anymore !

By the way, how do you do it ?! Do you have a bell somewhere nearby that starts ringing as soon as your name is mentioned in one of the hundreds of postings ?

Yet, somehow you are getting slow. This time it took 33 minutes !

Aurel

[Stebie9173]

The "Captain" Gardiner question:

From the London Gazette 29-5-1917

High. L.I.

Temp. 2nd Lt. F. T. Gardiner to be actg. Capt. whilst comdg. a Co. 25 Mar. 1917.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType=

In other words he was a substantive temporary (i.e. duration of war) second lieutenant acting as a Company Commander and holding the appointment of Captain to do so. (I'm sure the translation of the Gazette entry is unnecessary but...)

However:

London Gazette 4-10-1917

High. L.I.

The undermentioned to be temp. Lts.: —

2nd Lt. (actg. Capt.) F. T. Gardiner. 11 May 1917.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType=

I believe his entry on the NA Catalogue listed him as Lieutenant?

Being Gazetted after his death, I doubt his promotion to Lt. would show up on many of his Record pages. (Though possibly on the Wills and effects pages)

Just adding his commission, too, though I would think these would already be in the Service Papers.

LG 20-9-1915

The Highland Light Infantry.

The undermentioned to be temporary Second Lieutenants: —

Dated 13th September, 1915.

Frederick Thomas Gardiner.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType=

(For Andrew: Search criteria = Thom* Gard* for the last one with T. Gardiner for the top two )

Steve.

[John_Hartley]

Things may have changed in 90 years, but I would have expected a soldier to have his identity discs on his possesion.

Roxy

Almost certainly these will have been "spares". I have the effects list of an officer where three discs were sent to the family. I don't know if he might have been wearing a fourth.

John

[sabine72]

hello,

I am looking at the big digital photo, trying to read the words on the stone of jones and maybe russel, with a magnifing glass

to aurel : I see I G Red

my darling husband is still looking at it and thinks the same I G red .... the dots start with an L or a T

on the names he sees .V Jones and the russel guy he is sure of the R and that's about it.

sabine

[Aurel Sercu]

Sabine,

Thanks for setting your darling husband at work.

It's about time he joined the forces !

We are talking about the left arm of the cross, aren't we ?

So what I (and you) at first thought to be a 16 may be I G instead ?

Oh no, this spoils my weekend ...

But on the other hand, I G RedL or I G RedT (as both of you see) look a bit like 16 RIR, doesn't it ?

Please say yes. (I can't use a smiley now, they are limited to 3 per posting ... ;-(((

Aurel

[sabine72]

aurel,

I wish I could

but i started to play with the picture in microsoft photo editor, changed all I could thing of (colours its blue and yellow now) and I still see IG Red .o. stil two letters not sure enough to talk about in the second word.

I made a copie and mailded( still running 1.86mb)) to andrew , maybe he can do something else

sabine

[Andrew Hesketh]

I see I G Red

my darling husband is still looking at it and thinks the same I G red .... the dots start with an L or a T

on the names he sees .V Jones and the russel guy he is sure of the R and that's about it.

I. G. Red....? How about J.G. Red...?

Possibles:

Name: REDFERN, JOHN GEORGE

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: North Staffordshire Regiment

Unit Text: "B" Coy. 1st Bn.

Date of Death: 09/07/1915

Service No: 9445

Grave/Memorial Reference: Z. 28.

Cemetery: POTIJZE BURIAL GROUND CEMETERY (! )

Name: REDING, JOSEPH GEORGE

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment)

Unit Text: 1st Bn.

Date of Death: 31/10/1914

Service No: L/8713

Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

***

Thanks for the blue and yellow scan Sabine. I'm looking closely but still cannot be certain of what I see. On what appears to be the shield that is broken in half, I'm sure I read the name 'Roberts'.

[Jacky Platteeuw]

If the name is Roberts following is possible:

POTIJZE BURIAL GROUND CEMETERY, Belgium

ROBERTS, Corporal, DICK, R/1182, 8th Bn., King's Royal Rifle Corps. , Killed in action 21 September 1915. Age 27. Son of Joseph and Martha Roberts, of Warrington; husband of Annie Roberts, of 6, School St., Warrington. Grave Ref. X. 2.

POTIJZE CHATEAU GROUNDS CEMETERY, Belgium

ROBERTS, Private, EDWARD ARTHUR, 246048, 38th Bn., Canadian Infantry (Eastern Ontario Regiment). 15 November 1917. Age 32. Son of John Holt Roberts and Amelia Roberts, of 68, Wildwood Avenue, Ottawa, Ontario. Grave Ref. I. C. 61.

POTIJZE CHATEAU LAWN CEMETERY, Belgium

ROBERTS, Private, J, 206146, "C" Bn., Tank Corps. , formerly (26052),, Machine Gun Corps, Killed in action 31 July 1917. Grave Ref. C. 23.

Jacky

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Jacky, Sabine and Andrew.

These are my problems right now.

- On the right side of what appears to be a shield (sse my posting # 344 Friday 9.19) I think there are 2 names. We are almost sure one is .V. Jones, the other can be Russell (for Sabine) or Roberts (for Andrew). I really would like to know what could have been on the left half of the shield. More names ? Does anyone have a similar example ?

- What is on the left arm of the cross (left when watching it) ? Is it a name of a soldier, or is it a name of a unit ? I think it would be a bit puzzling if it were a name of a soldier. For then we would have a name on the (left) arm of the cross, and 2 names on that shield in the centre. Unless one says that the shield was added later. (And wouldn't this, if so, point out that the item may be a commemorative cross ?)

- I am 95% sure that on the right arm of the cross I read "Royal Pioneers". Andrew, can the names you suggested for the left arm (J.G. Redfern 1/North Staff Reg. and J.G. Reding 1/Queens) somehow be linked to "Royal Pioneers" ?

Sabine, I see you have sent a scan of that double cross to Andrew. Is it possible to send it to me too please ? (Not the coloured version.) Or if Sabine is not there right now, maybe Andrew can forward it to me ? Thanks.

Jacky, thanks for the Roberts you found. But right now I cannot think of what to do with them.

Aurel

[sabine72]

aurel,

the scan is on his way, without the yellow and blue, I'll try it later in red and green see what that does to the scan.

sabine

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Sabine.

Here it is, an extract from your scan. Hope you don't mind me posting it. Scabine's scan was approx. half of the postcard, but I cut out the double cross.

I don't know how it will look like, I will only see it after I posted it. I did not resize the extract, since there was no need to (it's only 400 x 393 pixels, 42 kB). I think if pals want to alter contreast and colour etc. you can download it and play with it ?

These are the questions to all of you :

1. What do you see on the left arm of the cross ?

Personally I still think it is 16 followed by ?????? Sabine thinks it is IG or I.G. instead of 16, and followed by something like Red....

2. What do you see on the right arm ? First I was convinced it was Royal Pioneers. Now I'm not anymore, but still think it is : Pioneers. (I admit that on the scan it looks a little less readable than on the enlargement of the postcard, with a magnifying glass.)

What do you think of the first of the two words ? Is there any word that matches Pioneers in the army ?

And if you don't believe the second is Pioneers, what could it be ?

3. The central shield (only right half of it preserved, left half broken off.)

There are two names.

- Let's start with the 2nd name.

I think it shows an initial which may be a C or a G, and then initial V, and then JONES, so : G.V.JONES or C.V. JONES.

(Andrew, I think we have a problem. You wrote that you saw ROBERTS, and I assumed you meant the 1st name, but looking back to your posting I think you mean the 2nd name ? There is a lot of difference between JONES and ROBERTS I'm afraid. But maybe you do mean the 1st, since that one appears to begin with an R ?)

- 1st name. Absolutely no idea. Though I think the initial is a J ? Or the right half of a U ? And I think the first letter of the surname is an R (or a B or a P ?)

Andrew found that there was a Cecil Victor JONES, 16th Bn. R.I.Rifles, 31/7/17, name on Menin Gate. (This 16 would come in very handy, since I think I see a 16 on the left arm of the cross.) Andrew also said that this 16th Bn. R.I.Rifles was a Pioneer Battalion. This man may indeed qualify.

(There are 4 other V. Jones's though :

E.V. Jones, R.E., buried at Bedford House Cem.

G.V. Jones, 13/Cheshire Reg., Menin Gate (fell a little south of Frezenberg)

V.H. Jones, Royal Engineers, Tyne Cot Mem.

A.V. Jones, HAC, 15/11/14, Ploegsteert Memorial)

I checked (on SDGW) the names of the men in 16/R.I.Rifles who fell on the date Cecil Victor JONES fell. These are the names :

Malcolm BENNETT

Colin CAMPBELL

James ENGLISH

Samuel HAMILTON

John HULL

Charles PUTMAN

John RUSSELL

Thomas SADLER

Alfred STANFORD

James WEIR

Does any of these names look like the 1st name on the shield ? The only candidate could be J. Russell ? And that's the name Sabine put forward from the beginning.

Anybody other useful ideas ?

Aurel

[Jacky Platteeuw]

Another try with Fotoshop.

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, J.P.

But ... what do YOU read ?

(You can read, can't you ?

Serious now.

Could, with a lot of goodwill, the left arm read : 16(th) R.I.Rif ?

And what for Pete's sake is that first word on the right arm ?

Aurel

[Guest geoff501]

What a fascinating thread, took a while to read all and catch up. I've also been dabbling with Photoshop. I have a request, I know people are busy but is it possible to get a scan of this area in raw format (ie bitmap). The jpg compression may not be helping further processing. A raw scan of the same area scanned at the greatest Optical resolution of the scanner (interpolation may not be useful) may help a bit. The image should be under half a meg (maybe more) so would need to be emailed to anyone interested in image processing. I'm not convinced that the word is PIONEER. Thanks.

[Guest geoff501]

Another try with Fotoshop.

I may be goggle-eyed through reading too many 1901 census scans, but looking at Jacky's image and my own Photoshop dabble, think the right arm reads (but does not fit with the left arm suggestions):

Name: PEKIN, JAMES

Initials: J

Nationality: Australian

Rank: Private

Regiment: Australian Infantry, A.I.F.

Unit Text: 22nd Bn.

Date of Death: 04/10/1917

Service No: 661A

Casuality Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 7 - 17 - 23 - 25 - 27 - 29 - 31.

Cemetery: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

[sabine72]

Aurel,

I think that my first thought about russel is right.

but now the 16 or IG,

A All handwritings are different, and thinking with what they made the names in the wooden markers at that time ?? it is hard to be 100% sure what it is

B I think we have a problem

C That RED doesn't make sence, since the second word is not cross, that I am sure about .

was there any battalion with a red in the name?

And what if it is a name of a third soldier ? (there are graves in the A row with

3 unknown's)

D the word before pioneers I don't know it any more since I can't see the L of royal.

My first thought 3 mounths ago was princces patricia, I never told that to any one,

maybe we should make a list of all the word with a P that were used in army units

E I'm still tired after my nap of 3 hours so it could be that all I have written doesn't make any sence

sabine

[Andrew Hesketh]

Hello again - some more thoughts after spending some time staring at the images!

1. What do you see on the left arm of the cross ? Personally I still think it is 16 followed by ?????? Sabine thinks it is IG or I.G. instead of 16, and followed by something like Red....

2. What do you see on the right arm ? First I was convinced it was Royal Pioneers. Now I'm not anymore, but still think it is : Pioneers.

3. Andrew, I think we have a problem. You wrote that you saw ROBERTS,

4. Does any of these names look like the 1st name on the shield ? The only candidate could be J. Russell ? And that's the name Sabine put forward from the beginning.

Aurel (thanks for the new scan)

1. I've a different idea now (number 402 I think!), sparked off by Geoff's input. See below.

2. I don't see Pioneers, though I'm certain the last word begins with 'P'.

3. No it's not Roberts! Ignore me. I was either too tired from staring at the picture or the wine was better than I thought!

4. Russell looks possible to me.

I .... think the right arm reads (but does not fit with the left arm suggestions):

Name: PEKIN, JAMES

Geoff - firstly welcome to the madhouse. I think this is a great idea. I can see that name too, on the right arm of the cross. Though am I seeing it because you suggested it!?

C That RED doesn't make sence, since the second word is not cross, that I am sure about .

was there any battalion with a red in the name?

D the word before pioneers I don't know it any more since I can't see the L of royal.

My first thought 3 mounths ago was princces patricia, I never told that to any one,

maybe we should make a list of all the word with a P that were used in army units

C. How about 'Bed', as in Bedfordshire? This is often shortened to 'Beds'.

D. Interesting. One of my earlier thoughts was 'Princess', but that didn't make sense at the time.

***

New suggestion - '16 Reg't Inf' on the left arm of the cross?

On the right arm the last word does look like 'Perkin' or something similar.

Right arm:

[Andrew Hesketh]

??

Name: PERKINS, JOHN BURTON

Initials: J B

Nationality: Canadian

Regiment/Service: Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (Eastern Ontario Regiment)

Age: 24

Date of Death: 02/06/1916

Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

[Aurel Sercu]

Geoff, Sabine

Sooner or later this Topic will give me a headache.

Maybe I will take a week or two off...

If only we knew whether the words on both cross arms are names of men or of units. So : Australian Private James Pekin ? Mmmm ... Must have died near Broodseinde. Bit far away from Potijze, though this is not really an argument I know.

Personally I expect names of men on the arms. Somehow I think the names should be in the middle. But I can be wrong of course. Maybe we'll end with 4 names of men ? Two on the arms of the cross, two on the shield ? (And then we would have no names of unitsAnd I wonder what was on the left side of the shield. The dates of death ? Of all 4 men ?

Sabine,

I hadn't noticed that there are graves in Row A with 3 unknowns. But E 11 and D 2 have 3. And true, in Row there are 3 stones with 2 Unknowns. (Anyway, not really important maybe. I know days ago I suggested that men of Row A* may have been "integrated" in graves in Row A, but I don't think I still believe that myself.)

As far as I know no regiment with "Red..." in the name. (There are 15 or so beginning with R though.)

Princess Patricia ? I'll think about it. (By the way, could anybody tell me if somehow Royal Pioneers (which I thought I saw at a given time) makes sense in WW1 ? I suppose not ?

Aurel

(mentally exhausted ... but then I did not have a 3 hour nap this afternoon ..

(Added 5 minutes later.)

Andrew,

I hadn't seen your posting when I started mine. When I am mentally exhausted, my typing becomes very very very sloooow.

Thanks for the new ideas. If I do not give any response to them, it simply is because my mind is empty.

A "madhouse", yes ! At least you made me smile. So I must have some energy left... (I will need it. for Dany DeVito on TV soon.)

[Greenwoodman]

Position and casualties of 16th (Pioneer) Battalion Royal Irish Rifles on 31/07/17 from "The Terrors" by Stuart N. White.

26-30 July devoted to training, but in this period the battalion moved to Vlamertinghe.

At 0530 on 31/07/17 battalion commenced task of clearing & repairing the Wieltje - Spree Farm(L6) road from where it crossed the German frontline(L7) to Bossaert Farm(L8). No 1 Company unable to start work on non-existent road until noon due enemy shelling. Progress then made, but more shelling 1530-1730, No 3 Coy relieved No 1 Coy, then rain in torrents.

Casualties No 1 Coy 3 OR killed & 1 off(Lt Dolling) + 5 OR wounded

No 3 Coy 5 OR killed, 2 offs (2/Lts Ross & McMaster) + 6 ORs wounded plus 1 OR missing.

Watching this with interest.

[Alan_J]

(By the way, could anybody tell me if somehow Royal Pioneers (which I thought I saw at a given time) makes sense in WW1 ? I suppose not ?

Aurel,

I think Royal Pioneers is WW2 - although of course as you know there were Pioneer battalions in WW1. I'm not going to suggest anything on what the words on the cross might be.....oh go on then, I also think it is a 16 at the left - that's as far as I'll say (having been "sure" of things previously in this thread I'm a bit wary now!).

Alan

[John_Hartley]

although of course as you know there were Pioneer battalions in WW1.

But would they have described themselves as "pioneers" on something like this? I'm doubtful.

John

[Alan_J]

John,

I'm doubtful too - they tended to be battalions of various regiments which acted as Pioneers, and would not have necessarily have written "Pioneers" on a grave of one of their men, more likely the actual battalion details.

Any other possible ideas on this word?

Alan