a soldier who used to have a grave

[ian turner]

Although one of the posts suggested that Gardiner was listed in a cemetery register in the late 20s

John

John - that was refering to Pvte Torrome, who is buried in Poelcapelle.

+++

There is a whole row of apparent graves missing when comparing the old pics with today's cemetery. They appear to me to be all in a burial plot, and not (as first suspected) just memorials. Where have they gone?

The explanation of double burials of 'unknowns' I do not think covers the numbers involved, and any why go to the bother to relocate them? The cemetery layout would not have made it necessary to re-locate the missing row. Why would either the army or the IWGC/CWGC bother to move an entire row, when they were all clearly marked?

Even if Capt Gardiner's marker was just a memorial I doubt that the rest of his row were memorials.

And looking at the old picture, with all the missing row in view, I now think his cross looks more like a real grave marker.

I do not see that we can get any further with our speculations, but wait for the CWGC to say more. And due to the concern about so many potentially lost graves I believe they should do so.

Ian

[Aurel Sercu]

Ian,

I may have focussed (a bit too intensely) on the 3 double graves in the present row A, but of course this does not solve the (whole) problem indeed. (Though I do find the 3 double graves behind Gardiner, Torrome and Cobbold a remarkable "coincidence")

Somehow a pity we can't see the crosses to the left of Gardiner, but I we can say that there must have been 14 more to the left of him, and that we only see numbers 15 - 24 of a row that originally had 30 (3 x 10). This is confirmed by the other postcard (reposted # 108). Where have they all gone ? Even if the 3 double graves have something to do with it, this hardly solves the mystery.

And then there is the layout of the cemetery ? When we look at Sabine / Andrew's photo (reposted # 109), there is a line marked on the ground. This line, as I saw yesterday, is in line with the wall near the other plot, plot I. (See the plan in post # 41) So one could say that when the wall was built, it was too close to the Gardiner row (I measured not more than 2 feet, so that the remains would have been beneath the wall !), and that for that reason the whole row was relocated. But then on the other post Armistice postcard (reposted in # 108) we see that the fence (wire) is at a respectable distance... (Unfortunately no year on this postcard. Which photo was taken first, # 108 or # 109 (= 1919) ? The trees in the background are not much help. If maybe 108 was taken first ? Then the boundary (fence) later was situated nearer to the Gardiner row, which had to be moved ? Could that be the explanation for the relocation ? But then there is the problem that after that the wall was moved back again, to where it is now ?)

Sorry if I appear to be hammering on the same nail, and only repeat the same questions Ian asked.

If someone wants me to go and have a look at something else in the cemetery, just let me know. But please, not after 30 minutes after this.

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

And due to the concern about so many potentially lost graves I believe they should do so.

Ian

Ian,

They probably are not really lost (I'm not saying you are saying they are). Only : somewhere where we don't know. Apart from one, Torrome. (And why was he relocated so far away to Poelkapelle ?)

A pity we can't read the names on the other 7 crosses in the Gardiner row (# 109)

Aurel

[Neil Mackenzie]

Aurel, I too had been wondering whether the layout of the cemetery had required the original graves to be moved.

The only entrance to the cemetery is to the left of Gardiner's grave and Plot 1 is to the right. The photo in #108 shows the graves right up to the wire and I wonder if, once the wall was in place, access to the rest of the cemetery was too restricted so they moved that row to create more room.

Is it possible that, given a decision to move the graves, Torrome was then moved to Polecapple as other Scots Guards killed on the same day as him were buried there?

As you say we ideally need some other names from the grave markers.

Neil

Doesn't explain why the others have disappeared though.

[alliekiwi]

Unless we assume that in grave LIV.A.5 at Poelkapelle someone else... (And as we all know that would not be the first time that at Poelkapelle someone beneath the headstone is not the name it says on the headstone itself. Sorry if this is only understandable for insiders.)

I've been reading this thread with fascination. I love a good mystery, and all anyone in the family has to do is point me in the direction of something like that and I'm off researching or pondering.

But I have to admit, I'm not an 'insider' and would love to know what is meant by the above statement. Am guessing it was able to be proved on some occassion that the wrong person was being commemorated by the headstone?

Allie

[ian turner]

This does not give us any fresh angles to consider, but I did a bit of Googling on the Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery and saw the following pics, which post here for info.

Also worth a look at this site:

http://www.ww1battlefields.co.uk/flanders/east.html

Ian

[Terry Denham]

Allie

Aurel has undertaken research and come up with convincing evidence about the identity and true age of a high profile burial in that cemetery.

I will leave it up to him if he expands on that any further but there was a degree of acrimony surrounding the topic (not due to any Forum discussion) a couple of years ago and he may not wish to go down the same road again.

[ian turner]

And a stereoscopic view

[manchester regiment]

Mancs,

There still may be some truth in what you say, but looking at the CWGC site it gives the history of this cemetery as follows:

Potijze was within the Allied lines during practically the whole of the First Word War and although subject to incessant shell fire, Potijze Chateau contained an advanced dressing station. Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery was used from May 1915 to September 1918 and at the end of the war, consisted of Plot I. Plot II was formed after the Armistice when graves were brought in from isolated sites and small burial grounds to the north-east.

Capt Gardiner, and the 'missing row' were in the area of Plot II, which according to the above is a post-war concentration site. If there was indeed a burial for Capt Gardiner at Potijze then there would still needed to have been sufficient remains (after the war) to have been removed from the original battlefield grave site. It does not look as if he was buried at this cemetery when he fell. (But I could be wrong...)

Ian

hiya ian,i remember a quote from a padre.[cant remember the book]he said that a shell had landed amongst a group of 12 men,he gathered up what he could find which fitted in a sandbag and performed a service,the letters to capt gardiners widow seem to be hiding something,like they were sparing her the gory details,bernard

[Auimfo]

Hi everyone, I'm back at last. I can see we've had some developments since I last checked the thread but unfortunately no real headway to solving the mystery of 30 odd graves seemingly disappearing.

Aurel, thanks for checking out the cemetery and providing the photos. I think at least this has conclusively proved there was another row in front. And the double graves do require further thought.

Now....perhaps if I might be permitted to throw a spanner in the works...

It has been suggested that the rope/line in Sabine's photo (1919) might be a layout for the fenceline and since the 'missing' row was too close then the graves were moved. This was a fair point but I don't think it's the case. Firstly, why have at least two of these men now been recorded on the Menin Gate instead. Secondly, Alan's photo (1920's) clearly shows the fenceline built and the graves still in existance. Lastly, I have examined Sabine's photo again and it struck me that this 'line' was exceedingly blurry compared with the ground upon which it's supposed to lie. What this suggests is that this line is actually closer to the camera and is in reality the top strand of wire of the fence itself. i.e. the photographer was outside the fenceline taking a photo looking in and caught the top strand of wire in the bottom of the photo. If this is the case then the fenceline is in the same position as it is in Alan's photo.

At this point in time I think there may only be two ways we can pursue this mystery any further.

1. High resolution scans of other front row crosses in Sabine's photo to try and establish the identity and determine what happened to them. I would suggest the cross 5 to the right of Gardiner's that has another cross nailed to the back of it. This cross clearly has writing on it and stands a reasonable chance of being identifiable.

2. Wait for CWGC records from Terry and hope they might provide an explanation or at least a clue. It might also be useful to find out (if possible) when Torrome was buried at Poelcapelle and where he was brought from.

Tim L.

(I think the butler did it )

[ian turner]

Tim,

Think you could be right about the wire, I just used it as a possible marker in our discussions for where the modern wall would be, not necessarily being a real marker for the wall. But the point remains unchanged, which I believe we all agree on, wall or wire fence, there was enough room for this 'missing' row to have contained graves.

I think the view in post 108 is taken at a later date than 109, by virtue of the spread of vegetation on the graves and also around the dead trees in the background. Several years I would suggest. So if 109 is dated 1918/19 then 108 could be early 1920's I would guess.

Between then and 1928 (when Pvte Torrome appears on the books in Poelcapelle) it would seem the change was wrought on this row.

Ian

[Auimfo]

Terry,

Here's a bit of a gruesome question for you. Is there any percentage/nominal amount of remains that must be recovered to be considered as a body for CWGC purposes.

I ask this because the thought crossed my mind that 'if' perhaps these graves were relocated to create more space and easier access at some later date, is it possible that when Gardiner and Cobbold were exhumed, it was determined that not enough remains existed to be considered a body and that the majority of them was indeed missing?

I know it's not the most delicate of questions but perhaps one that should be considered for the purposes of this thread.

Tim L.

(Or maybe Professor Plum with the dagger in the library)

[Auimfo]

Thanks Ian,

Yes, I am pretty convinced it's the top strand of wire which allows plenty of room for the graves.

I also agree that Alan's photo appears to have been taken in the early 1920's and Sabine's is clearly marked 1918-1919.

It's interesting that Torrome appears on the books at Poelcapelle in 1928. I would assume that the changes to the front row were all made around this time. The question remains - 'but why' and 'what happened to the others'.

Tim L.

(or Captain Mustard with the candlestick in the dining room.)

[Terry Denham]

Tim

You are making the common mistake.

CWGC did not do any burying and so the question is not relevant to them.

The army did the burying before a cemetery was handed over to CWGC. Once the army considered a cemetery 'complete', it was handed over to the care of CWGC for the erection of headstones, horticultural work and building work including walls, refuges etc.

Therefore, CWGC inherited what was there.

Also, I have not yet seen any evidence in the quest so far that Gardiner was ever buried here - the wording on his 'cross' making it possible he was not.

[ian turner]

Terry,

Then it would be interesting to know just what the IWGC inherited in respect of this 'missing' row at Potijze Chateau Grounds Cemetery?

(Capt Gardiner or no Capt Gardiner).

Ian

[Auimfo]

Terry,

Ok point taken. I promise not to make that mistake again.

But the question is still relevant no matter who did the burying/exhuming.

Actually do you know when the CWGC took over this particular cemetery? It would seem that the changes have probably been made between 1925-1928'ish.

And I would suggest that it is indeed a grave and not a memorial. And even then we still have to consider approximately 29 others as well and they're certainly not all memorials. This is evidenced by the fact that many of them are simply plain wooden crosses with thin metal name plates - not exactly something you would expect of a memorial dedicated by family or friends.

Tim L.

[Terry Denham]

Potijze Chateau Grounds was completed by CWGC in financial year 1924-25 according to their Annual Report for that year.

For non-Brits.... The Financial Year is from April 1924 to March 1925!

[Aurel Sercu]

1. The only entrance to the cemetery is to the left of Gardiner's grave and Plot 1 is to the right. The photo in #108 shows the graves right up to the wire and I wonder if, once the wall was in place, access to the rest of the cemetery was too restricted so they moved that row to create more room.

2. Is it possible that, given a decision to move the graves, Torrome was then moved to Polecapple as other Scots Guards killed on the same day as him were buried there?

Neil,

1. I agree. With Gardiner's row access to the graves in Plot II and I would have been a problem indeed. The photo in my posting # 111 of yesterday shows that after removing Gardiner's row this problem was solved.

2. Actually I had a similar thought yesterday. I wanted to find out where the Scots Guards fallen on 19 April 1916 have their graves, if they have one.

I found that 15 Scots Guards fell on that day.

- 13 of them are on the Menin Gate,

- 1 has a grave in White House Cemetery,

- 1 in Poperinge New Mil. Cem.

- and 1 Torrome is in Poelkapelle.

A somewhat disappointing result. But it allows me to answer your question. Torrome having battalion mates buried at Poelkapelle cannot possibly have been a reason to relocate him to that cemetery, since there weren't any.

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

I love a good mystery, and all anyone in the family has to do is point me in the direction of something like that and I'm off researching or pondering. But I have to admit, I'm not an 'insider' and would love to know what is meant by the above statement. Am guessing it was able to be proved on some occassion that the wrong person was being commemorated by the headstone?

Allie

Allie,

I'll reply to your question off Forum later today. As Terry pointed out, it's a bit delicate, and something I'd rather not to be discussed again in public.

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

1. Now....perhaps if I might be permitted to throw a spanner in the works...

It has been suggested that the rope/line in Sabine's photo (1919) might be a layout for the fenceline and since the 'missing' row was too close then the graves were moved. I don't think it's the case. (...)

It struck me that this 'line' was exceedingly blurry compared with the ground upon which it's supposed to lie. What this suggests is that this line is actually closer to the camera and is in reality the top strand of wire of the fence itself. i.e. the photographer was outside the fenceline taking a photo looking in and caught the top strand of wire in the bottom of the photo. If this is the case then the fenceline is in the same position as it is in Alan's photo.

2. At this point in time I think there may only be two ways we can pursue this mystery any further.

High resolution scans of other front row crosses in Sabine's photo to try and establish the identity and determine what happened to them. I would suggest the cross 5 to the right of Gardiner's that has another cross nailed to the back of it. This cross clearly has writing on it and stands a reasonable chance of being identifiable.

Tim L.

Tim,

1. Of course ! And all the time I was suspicious about this line. I knew something wasn't right, but I couldn't put my finger on it. I could tell you that at a given moment I thought that maybe a gardener had left his garden hose on the ground, and could ask you not to tell anyone else that that is what my overactive phantasy had generated, but I knew you would not keep your lips sealed, and this would certainly embarrass me in front of every one !

So let's forget about at this spot the boundary having been moved forward and/or backward. A wire it is. No doubt.

(I tried to find the same wire back in photo # 108, but I was not successful. (I noticed that in photo # 109 part of the wire was double, and hoped to find that back in # 108)

2. Yes, of course. Or maybe working with a powerful magnifying glass on the original postcard ? By the way, where is it now ? Does Sabine have it, or is it Andrew ?

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

I think the view in post 108 is taken at a later date than 109, by virtue of the spread of vegetation on the graves and also around the dead trees in the background. Several years I would suggest.

Ian

Ian,

I agree. 109 was taken at a later date than 108. There is at least one tree in 108 that has lost part of a thick branch compared to 109. Whether it is "several years" I have no idea.

Aurel

[ian turner]

Aurel,

Several years = more than a 'couple' (= 2), less than half a dozen (=6) !

Ian

[Aurel Sercu]

Also, I have not yet seen any evidence in the quest so far that Gardiner was ever buried here - the wording on his 'cross' making it possible he was not.

Correct. And that is why I am anxious to know where 12/HLI was on 31 July 1917. I have already asked that question in a previous posting, but unfortunately no precise answer (Yes, I know Sabine read in a certain source : between Wieltje, Potijze, Verlorenhoek, but that's not enough for me.)

12/HLI was not directly involved in the advance on that day, not even in support. (In that 46th brigade 10/11 was, but 12/ was not it seems.)

So I checked where the fatal casualties of 12/HLI had a grave, if they have one. The result was disappointing :

- Menin Gate : 8 (one of them Gardiner)

- Brandhoek NMC : 1 (Died of Wounds)

- Aeroplane Cemetery : 1 (this cem. begun on 1 Aug 1917, but nearly 1,000 concentrated post Armistice.)

- Potijze Chateau Grounds Cem : 1 (Ewan, but in Plot I)

Does someone have access to Oatts, The Story of the Highland Light Infantry, Glasgow - London, 1961 right now ? If not, I will have. Next Wednesday in Ypres.

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

And a last posting, for now, in this series, because I have a confession to make. And an apology.

Yesterday I couldn't help emphasizing that the graves right behind Gardiner - Torrome - Cobbold appeared to be "double unknowns" . That is in the present row A : 15 - 16 - 17 are "Two soldiers of the Great War". I found this a remarkable coincidence, and suggested that maybe ...

Well, today I went back. (Still no magpie !) And discovered that when I said that these were the only 3 double graves in Plot II, I was wrong. There are more :

D 2 = Three soldiers of the Great War

D 3, 4 and 5 = Two soldiers of the Great War

E 11, 12, 13 and 14 = Two soldiers of the Great War

So these 3 graves behind Gardiner - Torrome - Cobbold probably are nothing but a coincidence. (But isn't that what I said yesterday ? Well, it still is, but only less remarkable.

Aurel

[sabine72]

aurel,

The original postcard is still in my possession. Where it will stay untill the day I die. I'll make sure my son will never sell it. It is very dear to me as I told before I got it from a special person.

I'll contact david gardiner about the letters he has of his uncle FT gardiner. o

I forgot I have an email about the 12bn HLI diaries I'll mail it to you.

See what I can do now with the postcard, If you hear a big bang then my computer exploded or I trough it all in the garden.

( for the people not in belgium we live not far away from eachother)

sabine