22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

[pjwmacro]

11 minutes ago, abowell97 said:

Afraid not, very few of my images have a date written on the back, only around 5-6 of the 249 pictures (with the majority being of various locations they visited).

 

I'm unsure where the photo was developed, and I do have one undeveloped photo in the collection, however it looks like an image of an Indian village, and not any individuals. 

Thanks to those who clarified the location on the third image, I didn't look into the engraved rock monument, but I do have quite a lot of photos labeled as Kuldana. 

As for those Webleys, I recall one or two of my images showing 'Revolver training', so I'll see If I can scan those in soon. 

 

Alex photos of individuals are always interesting - and satisfying to be able to put faces to names, which is often tricky for WW1, unless one can get a photo from a relative.

 

But photos of locations can be equally interesting - many of my grandfathers pictures are also location rather than people (and he has none of the "portrait" shots which James's (and to an extent your) album has. Have you had a look at the Sgt Fielder Motorcycle article at post id 70 in this thread: 

• "In India with the MMGS" Letter from Sgt A Fielder page 35, July 13th 1916 The Motor Cycle, Volume 17. 

If you have location photos of any of the locations mentioned in the letter, it would be nice to be able to "illustrate" the letter.  And I know it's a long shot - but I`d personally be particularly interested in any pictures of Badama Post, Sadda and Parachinar.

 

Best, Paul

[JPJamie]

3 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Alex photos of individuals are always interesting - and satisfying to be able to put faces to names, which is often tricky for WW1, unless one can get a photo from a relative.

 

But photos of locations can be equally interesting - many of my grandfathers pictures are also location rather than people (and he has none of the "portrait" shots which James's (and to an extent your) album has. Have you had a look at the Sgt Fielder Motorcycle article at post id 70 in this thread: 

• "In India with the MMGS" Letter from Sgt A Fielder page 35, July 13th 1916 The Motor Cycle, Volume 17. 

If you have location photos of any of the locations mentioned in the letter, it would be nice to be able to "illustrate" the letter.  And I know it's a long shot - but I`d personally be particularly interested in any pictures of Badama Post, Sadda and Parachinar.

 

Best, Paul

 

Paul: for some reason, I never connected the image of "trickster" Fielder with the story in your link above, so thanks for directing my attention.  I might have OMADD (Old Man ADD).  I also like your mentioning locations in pictures as I share your interest.  On that subject, it's fun to read the article and search those (Thall, Kohat, Parachinar etc.) locations using Google Maps of Pakistan.  They really "got around" in those "old" motorcycles!  Images of the men are most important, but what's in the background helps piece together what Kuldana and Murree Hills looked like back then.   The first clues are the direction of the shadows.

 

Edited 22 June , 2017 by JPJamie

[abowell97]

7 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Alex photos of individuals are always interesting - and satisfying to be able to put faces to names, which is often tricky for WW1, unless one can get a photo from a relative.

 

But photos of locations can be equally interesting - many of my grandfathers pictures are also location rather than people (and he has none of the "portrait" shots which James's (and to an extent your) album has. Have you had a look at the Sgt Fielder Motorcycle article at post id 70 in this thread: 

• "In India with the MMGS" Letter from Sgt A Fielder page 35, July 13th 1916 The Motor Cycle, Volume 17. 

If you have location photos of any of the locations mentioned in the letter, it would be nice to be able to "illustrate" the letter.  And I know it's a long shot - but I`d personally be particularly interested in any pictures of Badama Post, Sadda and Parachinar.

 

Best, Paul

I'll certainly have a better look through them soon, and I know for definite that quite a lot are in Rawalpindi, a few in Kashmir, and even some around the Taj Mahal. 

I've seen some duplicates of location shots, such as the inside of the Fort, and a dramatic shot of a valley that I saw further back in the forum, so I'll check through them and get scanning the best or most relevant ones soon!

 

[charlesmessenger]

I must say that this again is the Forum at its best. What might seem a fairly insignificant little unit has prodiced a mass of fasniating photos and information.

 

Charles M

[pjwmacro]

3 hours ago, charlesmessenger said:

I must say that this again is the Forum at its best. What might seem a fairly insignificant little unit has prodiced a mass of fasniating photos and information.

 

Charles M

 

Many thanks for your support Charles. Although I suspect Motor Machine Gunners are turning in their graves at any association of a "Motors" unit with the words "fairly insignificant" - even if it was qualified "might seem"! It is fascinating how far we have advanced in just a few months and that the forum has managed to link 2 grandsons and a great grandson from the one battery, with great support from David Murdoch - the grandson of another Motors Machine Gunner - and several others. Thank you to you all - but I am sure there are more descendants out there with other photos and stories to share.

 

On a slightly different note - the LLT entry against 22 Bty MMG, states "formed in India in Apr 1916". Neither David or I are convinced that this is accurate - given the evidence that suggests officers, a significant proportion of the men and their motor equipment shipped from Devonport as a formed unit in Feb 16. How does one speak with LLT to check what the provenance of their statement might be?

 

Best wishes, Paul

[JPJamie]

On 23/06/2017 at 03:56, abowell97 said:

I'll certainly have a better look through them soon, and I know for definite that quite a lot are in Rawalpindi, a few in Kashmir, and even some around the Taj Mahal. 

I've seen some duplicates of location shots, such as the inside of the Fort, and a dramatic shot of a valley that I saw further back in the forum, so I'll check through them and get scanning the best or most relevant ones soon!

 

 

Alex:  You mentioned the Taj Mahal.  I've got pictures from the Taj Mahal as you do.  When my brother and I look at them, we cannot believe they were taken there, because not a soul is in the entire background...just the Taj Mahal!  We were of the thought the background was faked, but your images from the same time will help us figure that out.  Please let us see your images as we can compare shots for validation.  One has my grandfather sitting in front of the Taj Mahal and a few others show two men and not a soul in the background.  If you Google Maps the Taj Mahal now, where my grandfather sat in 1918, it's crowded with people.  This site has made me proud of my grandfather, and answered questions I never thought to ask as a young boy spending many weekends with him. I hope others can experience the same and want to help that happen.

 

Below is the image my brother and I thought was background faked.

I also included at 600dpi crop out of his arm badge.

 

 

 

 

 

[MaureenE]

I think during the WW1 period there would be virtually no Indian middle class. The Indian poor would not be able to afford to visit places like the Taj Mahal, so the only tourists would be the British in India, or wealthy Indians. There would be  virtually no international tourists, due to the expense of getting there- aeroplane  fares would be extremely expensive  and  even shipping fares  relatively expensive.

 

Accordingly  the potential pool of tourists visiting the Taj Mahal was probably quite small. I think it is not surprising that you could see a photo of the Taj Mahal without people in the background.

 

Cheers

Maureen

[pjwmacro]

55 minutes ago, Maureene said:

I think during the WW1 period there would be virtually no Indian middle class. The Indian poor would not be able to afford to visit places like the Taj Mahal, so the only tourists would be the British in India, or wealthy Indians. There would be  virtually no international tourists, due to the expense of getting there- aeroplane  fares would be extremely expensive  and  even shipping fares  relatively expensive.

 

Accordingly  the potential pool of tourists visiting the Taj Mahal was probably quite small. I think it is not surprising that you could see a photo of the Taj Mahal without people in the background.

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

Fair point Maureen - and I agree.  In fact I don't think there were commercial flights to India until after the war.  And given the war was on I don't think Americans or Europeans were travelling as tourists to India. I`m no expect - but I see nothing in James's photo for me to believe it is faked.

Best, Paul

[pjwmacro]

6 hours ago, JPJamie said:

 

Alex:  You mentioned the Taj Mahal.  I've got pictures from the Taj Mahal as you do.  When my brother and I look at them, we cannot believe they were taken there, because not a soul is in the entire background...just the Taj Mahal!  We were of the thought the background was faked, but your images from the same time will help us figure that out.  Please let us see your images as we can compare shots for validation.  One has my grandfather sitting in front of the Taj Mahal and a few others show two men and not a soul in the background.  If you Google Maps the Taj Mahal now, where my grandfather sat in 1918, it's crowded with people.  This site has made me proud of my grandfather, and answered questions I never thought to ask as a young boy spending many weekends with him. I hope others can experience the same and want to help that happen.

 

Below is the image my brother and I thought was background faked.

I also included at 600dpi crop out of his arm badge.

 

   

 

 

 

James

 

Great photo! I too would be curious to see Alex's Taj Mahal photos.  But I see nothing in this picture to make me think it is faked - although (as you know!) I am not on expert on photos.  As Maureen has commented - I don't think there would have been much tourism in India in 1918. I wonder when in 1918 it was - I`d be curious to know if we can work out whether it was some sort of battery organised trip for a number of the men - or something just a few of them did off their own bats.  I wonder also if it is related to the ending of the war in Europe and starting to draw down the British forces in India and send them home for demob. The Taj Mahal is a long way from Rawlpindi (where 22 Battery was based) - but it is also well off the route from Pindi to Bombay - from where the boats back to UK departed.  I also wonder if it is coincidence that both James P Jamieson and Walter Patrick have Taj Mahal photos and (so far as we can determine) were not on the NWF during 3rd Afghan War. Whereas Taj Mahal does not feature in any of my grandfathers photos - and was involved in the 3rd Afghan War.  And it was during 1918 (Aug-Dec) that my grandfather was away in Egypt undergoing pilot training. How I wish my father could manage to locate my grandfathers letters home to his fiancée - my grandmother - and how I hope those letters have not been lost / destroyed!!!

I am not familiar with the sleeve badge.  I suspect David Murdoch  will be able to help.

Best, Paul

[Ron Clifton]

The sleeve badge in MG in a wreath - the badge of a qualified machine gunner.

 

Ron

[pjwmacro]

3 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

The sleeve badge in MG in a wreath - the badge of a qualified machine gunner.

 

Ron

Thanks Ron. Appreciated. Paul

[abowell97]

Here are my Taj Mahal related pics, not great scans but I tried to get them all in. 

 

These top ones seem more professional, being significantly larger, non-laminated and with borders around the image. They also have a lot of text written on the back by W.Patrick...

Left image: "The Gateway of the Taj, Agra."

Center Image:

"Cenotaph, Taj Mahal, Agra. 

The fretwork is marble, the whole thing being an octagonal screen around the tomb of the King and Queen, for whom the Taj Mahal was built. To give an idea of the work, over thirty small jewels are used in the design of a single flower, all inlaid so finely that it is impossible to detect any joins, even with a powerful glass." 

Right Image: "Taj Mahal, Agra, taken from the interior of the gateway."

 

 

These are a lot smaller than those above, and don't have borders. The third image was so overexposed that the Taj Mahal wasn't actually that visible, so it took a lot of editing! The other two seem to be of the entrance gateway.

Left Image: "Agra, Taj mahal. W.Patrick"

        Looking at the higher res copy of the image, there's a horse-drawn carriage, surrounded by those who are in military uniform on the steps. 

Center Image: "Agra"

        Three individuals, bottom left.

Right Image: "Agra, Taj Mahal"

        Just two people in the picture. 

 

Hope these help!

[JPJamie]

The man on the right has a badge on his right upper arm which seems also on his left.

600 dpi scan of photograph with white border.

I have another shot of the Taj Mahal taken from farther back and higher than below with nobody in the shot.

 

 

600dpi (my maximum scan) of the two men above.

Features are not very good.

 On the right arm of the man at right is a cross arm badge which appears to be duplicated on the left arm. 

 

 

Entrance to Taj Mahal

Same subject as Alex has, not a duplicate as different angle.

 

[JPJamie]

9 hours ago, Maureene said:

I think during the WW1 period there would be virtually no Indian middle class. The Indian poor would not be able to afford to visit places like the Taj Mahal, so the only tourists would be the British in India, or wealthy Indians. There would be  virtually no international tourists, due to the expense of getting there- aeroplane  fares would be extremely expensive  and  even shipping fares  relatively expensive.

 

Accordingly  the potential pool of tourists visiting the Taj Mahal was probably quite small. I think it is not surprising that you could see a photo of the Taj Mahal without people in the background.

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

Excellent observation Maureene.  I thought of population increase since then, but not the absence of a middle class but both are a involved. 

[JPJamie]

It appears Alex and I have (so far) two duplicate photographs.

Alex please examine yours and let us know if you agree.

Two men in the photograph at left, appear to have sacks and cleaning a drained reflecting pool.

Alex: my left image is slightly less cropped on the right than yours as more of the person in motion at the right edge of the frame is visible. 

 

 

[JPJamie]

9 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

The sleeve badge in MG in a wreath - the badge of a qualified machine gunner.

 

Ron

 

Thank you Ron!

 

JJ

[abowell97]

3 hours ago, JPJamie said:

It appears Alex and I have (so far) two duplicate photographs.

Alex please examine yours and let us know if you agree.

Yeah, it looks like they are duplicates. I thought some of those three in the top row of mine would be, as they're about 3x larger and seem more 'professional'. 

 

Your left photo seems to be a lot better exposed than mine, because the Taj Mahal is almost invisible on my un-edited copy, but they are either the same photo, or taken immediately after each other.

 

Thanks, 

Alex.

[david murdoch]

On 24/06/2017 at 03:30, JPJamie said:

 

 

 

 

600dpi (my maximum scan) of the two men above.

Features are not very good.

 On the right arm of the man at right is a cross arm badge which appears to be duplicated on the left arm. 

 

 

 

 

 

Cross badges are definitely red cross  -  worn on both upper arms by RAMC, so possibly one of the lads noted as RAMC seen in the earlier posts. Looks like he has a 2 year good conduct stripe on the left sleeve, but also something on the right.  I'm thinking that the battery may have had them attached as unit medics as they were out there relatively on their own and mobile, where on western front would be plenty of medical people close on hand. I jumped back to their photos to compare, but not really clear enough. One thing I can see is he is wearing Indian pattern tropical helmet  - different from all the others. In the photo of  "J Thomson RAMC"  he is wearing one also! 

 

 

[JPJamie]

1 hour ago, david murdoch said:

Cross badges are definitely red cross  -  worn on both upper arms by RAMC, so possibly one of the lads noted as RAMC seen in the earlier posts. Looks like he has a 2 year good conduct stripe on the left sleeve, but also something on the right.  I'm thinking that the battery may have had them attached as unit medics as they were out there relatively on their own and mobile, where on western front would be plenty of medical people close on hand. I jumped back to their photos to compare, but not really clear enough. One thing I can see is he is wearing Indian pattern tropical helmet  - different from all the others. In the photo of  "J Thomson RAMC"  he is wearing one also! 

 

David you as always amaze me with your graphic resources.  That might be J Thomson in the photo on the right at the Taj Mahal, but I say that only with your mention of the tropical helmet.  He does seem to have the same features.

Edited 23 June , 2017 by JPJamie

[JPJamie]

Alex: I think they are exact duplicates, only different film developing techniques.  That said, our scanning/Photoshop techniques throw a variable into the calculus here.  Look at both images of the men cleaning the pool side-by-side and they appear to be exact matches but different "exposures."  Mine is on the left and yours on the right.  If they were two different images taken at different times, the men's positions would have moved.  So I think, the same camera was used, but dark room technique (with the consideration of our techniques) might be different for both.  This was probably done to increase the number of photographs for distribution from the same roll of film.

 

[Ron Clifton]

8 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Cross badges are definitely red cross  -  worn on both upper arms by RAMC, so possibly one of the lads noted as RAMC seen in the earlier posts. Looks like he has a 2 year good conduct stripe on the left sleeve, but also something on the right.

The badges on the right lower sleeve are overseas service chevrons - one for each year of overseas service, not including 1914 (which would have been a red chevron).

 

Ron

[david murdoch]

7 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

The badges on the right lower sleeve are overseas service chevrons - one for each year of overseas service, not including 1914 (which would have been a red chevron).

 

Ron

Ron.

Just looking at this on the computer now  - so blowing it up big. I just wrote "something" previously as I could not positively identify it. There is some black marks/shadows above and to the left, but discounting them can see the outline of overseas chevrons and in the correct place for them. Given these Taj Mahal photos are from 1918 could be three blue ones. As the Battery shipped out to India early 1916  see in some of the photos some of the lads earned a 2 year good conduct, but not  overseas chevrons showing up. As this guy is RAMC he was possibly seconded to them out there and been there longer. Still trying to track him down via the GSM roll.

In post 104 photo got two NCOs at the front look like they have four each (all looking blue in the monochrome).

[JPJamie]

Alex: have another duplicate in my grandfather's album of the entrance to the Taj Mahal.

I enlarged it to show more detail.

Appears to be a few men in helmets there.

 

[JPJamie]

Here is a very good picnic scene.

A far right is Girdwood, John Private M2/097864 Army Service Corps

 

Alex: is that your great grandfather Walter Patrick behind Girdwood?

 

 

[david murdoch]

Another name to added to the list

Found today on GSM roll for NWF1919

Edgar William Davis

Private M2/115535 ASC "Attd 22nd Battery MMGC"

Got his MIC, and he was entitled to BWM only and GSM with clasp.

Address on MIC is Vancouver BC Canada.

No discharge date on medal roll.

Not found a service record on him yet, but I'd say he's likely another who shipped out to India on Beltana.

So now have 5  ASC names linked to Battery and who would be part of the total battery headcount.

 

On GSM roll shows up 7 ASC attd 15th MMG Battery which is probably a full headcount of their motor transport drivers /mechanics.