22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

[david murdoch]

Girdwood:-

From JJ's list

John Girdwood Private M2/097864 Army Service Corps

Received BWM only and the GSM with NWF clasp.

Address, Thorncliffe, Wishaw, Lanarkshire (close by Hamilton)

[pjwmacro]

On 25/05/2017 at 15:25, mcassell said:

 

Marvellous picture - and nice to confirm that BSMs of MGC(Motors) MMG Batteries had crossed rifles over stripes. Would it be possible via pm to get jpegs of this picture and that of Gunner Laws (whose medals I have)?  You wouldn't by chance have a picture of Lieutenant Rosher/Roescher who commanded the Battery after Molony.

 

@ James:  I don't think it's a longshot - pretty sure it's the same Ward in both pictures. Regards, Paul

[pjwmacro]

20 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Paul. Regarding official paperwork for the MGC - that would give unit formation, merging and disbandment dates, I believe all this was destroyed in a fire prior to WW2, and then the individual service records destroyed in WW2 bombing. For this reason never been a definitive work on the MGC organisation as a lot of the original information is gone. Looks between the lists have well on the way to a full roster for 22nd. There are several on JJ's list still not positively identified as only have second names. I get the feeling these may be other ASC personnel. Looks like they were attached to 22nd prior to leaving UK and all embarked together. I will look again at the GSM roll - this time for ASC (as not been there yet). The other ASC chap Harry Cutler did get the GSM with clasp, so will look and see if I can find others.

If you like I can put them all on a spreadsheet with their medal entitlements,discharge dates ect (basically same format I'm doing for the whole MMGS! This will show up who got what medals - could be some were left at base camp so did not get GSM. Strange with Fielder as he would be a very important person in the Battery and you would expect he would have been with them in Parachinar.

I'll be looking for more background information on those MMGS numbers. As mentioned previously there looks to be quite a few Scottish names among them and I am interested in where they came from and what became of them. A lot of them have middle names so easier to pick them up on 1911 census, find birth certificates,marriage certs ect on Scotland's People site.

On the bulk of the medal index cards has address added in the same pen as the GSM entitlements. I noticed Dowie never got a GSM either, but see he was actually commissioned into I.A.R.O 19/8/1918 (to Highland Light Infantry) so he left the battery. The few with later MGC number probably replacements for likes of Dowie and Gilmour  - the majority look like they were with the battery from start to finish.

 

David - if you could put them on a spreadsheet showing all that I`d be deeply grateful!  Paul

[JPJamie]

Here is a group image with my grandfather James Petrie Jamieson bottom right with pipe in hand.  There is a cap in the front showing the MGC badge.  What's interesting to me is this picture was taken at Eastbourne (assuming) South England and it appears to be taken on the beach.  My apologies for cropping out part of Eastbourne, but my grandfather penned the word Eastbourne clearly in his album.  So why were they there?  Was this where they left from or was this when they came back?

 

Eastbourne was also home of the "blue boys."   The "blue boys" were from a convalescent camp called Summerdown which opened in Eastbourne to treat some of the thousands of soldiers injured in World War One.  The camp could hold 3,500 men at any one time and was a dominant feature in the town for the remainder of the war.  So this adds even more questions...

 

 

Edited 4 June , 2017 by JPJamie

[JPJamie]

On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 11:56, david murdoch said:

Girdwood:-

From JJ's list

John Girdwood Private M2/097864 Army Service Corps

Received BWM only and the GSM with NWF clasp.

Address, Thorncliffe, Wishaw, Lanarkshire (close by Hamilton)

 

Thanks David!

I will update my original list of names.

Wishaw is close to Hamilton were my grandfather (Russell Street) lived in retirement.  I used to live in Ashgill, a small village SE of Larkhall and often visited my grandfather on weekends in Hamilton. 

Edited 4 June , 2017 by JPJamie

[JPJamie]

Here is a picture of William F. Telfer 1600 Gunner...

 

Edited 4 June , 2017 by JPJamie

[JPJamie]

Here is a picture of John Girdwood Private M2/097864 Army Service Corps...

 

Edited 4 June , 2017 by JPJamie

[JPJamie]

Here is a picture of Frederick Harvey Parker 79482 (possible) Gunner.       The original picture was overexposed, so I turned that down...

 

  

[david murdoch]

4 hours ago, JPJamie said:

 

Thanks David!

I will update my original list of names.

Wishaw is close to Hamilton were my grandfather (Russell Street) lived in retirement.  I used to live in Ashgill, a small village SE of Larkhall and often visited my grandfather on weekends in Hamilton. 

My Sister lives in Hamilton - not far away from the addresses you posted previously - I was over there a couple of weeks ago when I was back in Scotland.

 

[david murdoch]

3 hours ago, JPJamie said:

Here is a picture of John Girdwood Private M2/097864 Army Service Corps...

 

I identified John Girdwood on Scotlands People. He did become a dentist after the war, and had a practice at 2 Russell Street, Wishaw.

These comments on the photos about Dowie being a banker and Girdwood being a dentist for sure indicate they kept in touch after the war.

[david murdoch]

20 hours ago, JPJamie said:

Here is a group image with my grandfather James Petrie Jamieson bottom right with pipe in hand.  There is a cap in the front showing the MGC badge.  What's interesting to me is this picture was taken at Eastbourne (assuming) South England and it appears to be taken on the beach.  My apologies for cropping out part of Eastbourne, but my grandfather penned the word Eastbourne clearly in his album.  So why were they there?  Was this where they left from or was this when they came back?

 

Eastbourne was also home of the "blue boys."   The "blue boys" were from a convalescent camp called Summerdown which opened in Eastbourne to treat some of the thousands of soldiers injured in World War One.  The camp could hold 3,500 men at any one time and was a dominant feature in the town for the remainder of the war.  So this adds even more questions...

 

 

Interesting one ! Maybe a weekend leave during training or out and about on a run during training. As the battery shipped out to India in February 1916, and this picture looks to have been taken in summer time or fair weather at least, maybe go with late summer/autumn 1915 date for the photo. That looks like a nice shiny new Motor Machine Gun Service badge. I'm noticing in the later photos from India - both on peaked caps and side caps, they mostly seem to be wearing standard MGC cap badges (ie with no MMG below the guns). I was always under the impression that the MGC (Motors) carried on using the MMG badge, but now not so sure, as seeing these photos and other personnel who have low MMGS service numbers but wearing Standard MGC badges. Most of 22nd Battery have pre MGC service numbers, so enlisted mostly early to mid 1915 (comparing known enlistment dates/service numbers), and specifically to get into the motorcycle units. It appears they did not have any prior active service with other units, so most likely under training when MGC took over, then assigned to 22nd Battery. Previous history states it was formed in April 1916 in India, but indicators now appears the Battery was formed in UK and shipped out to India as a complete unit, so could have been formed some months earlier (late 1915). Looking at Sgt. Fielder's ASC record he also enlisted mid 1915 and appears on "home service" until February 1916 - there is no date given when he was actually assigned to 22nd Battery, but no record of any other prior unit.

Returning from India, most were discharged late 1919 or early 1920 - so probably arrived back in UK in winter time.

[david murdoch]

On ‎19‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 11:57, david murdoch said:

Paul. The reason for my comment was that  by the time when 22nd Battery was formed the MMGS had already been absorbed into the Machine Gun Corps, So it was not a MMGS unit as such. This was a time of transition when many of the original MMGS batteries were disbanded and the personnel re assigned into MGC Motors or Heavy Section. As the battery was formed in India it's probable that experienced  officers and other ranks were sent out to set up the new unit. It's also possible the equipment came from another disbanded battery and shipped out to India. My grandfather was in one of the early MMGS batteries and then re allocated to MGC(Motors) on armoured cars. The original MMGS other ranks are identifiable by their low service numbers (under 2775). Those for sure most likely considered themselves "originals" within the Motors, and the Motors were a thing apart from the MGC! If you can post your Grandfather's name/service number and any other names you have I can check in my MMGS data.

Regarding service after the war these men had volunteered on duration of the war attestations but kept on fighting. In my grandfathers unit they were only released for demob when they received replacements who they had to train up to combat ready.

Paul. I'm beginning to rethink this statement  - due to the information that is coming together, that 22nd MMG battery was actually formed in UK late in 1915 as it appears to have shipped to India as a complete unit including officers. other ranks and ASC mechanics/drivers. Also it may have been formed or ordered to be formed just prior to MGC taking over the MMGS. As the majority of the personnel were enlisted prior to MGS being formed and seem to have gone the whole way through serving with just this unit. I tend to think they formed and did unit training in UK probably for some months prior to shipping out. Obviously all existing MMGS units became MMG batteries of the MGC(M) but the original personnel probably always considered themselves MMGS regardless of where they ended up.

 

[pjwmacro]

21 hours ago, JPJamie said:

Here is a group image with my grandfather James Petrie Jamieson bottom right with pipe in hand.  There is a cap in the front showing the MGC badge.  What's interesting to me is this picture was taken at Eastbourne (assuming) South England and it appears to be taken on the beach.  My apologies for cropping out part of Eastbourne, but my grandfather penned the word Eastbourne clearly in his album.  So why were they there?  Was this where they left from or was this when they came back?

 

Eastbourne was also home of the "blue boys."   The "blue boys" were from a convalescent camp called Summerdown which opened in Eastbourne to treat some of the thousands of soldiers injured in World War One.  The camp could hold 3,500 men at any one time and was a dominant feature in the town for the remainder of the war.  So this adds even more questions...

 

 

 

Another great photo. I think I support David's view that this must have been taken late summer 1915 - before they went to India. My logic (appart from the badge) is that I am pretty sure that at least the majority of the Bty shipped to India together on the Beltana in Feb 16. I think on recovery they are more likely to have shipped back in a number of packets - and I think would have been more focused on demobbing and getting home (they had been away over 3 years without any home leave) rather than heading to Eastbourne.

 

Paul

[pjwmacro]

41 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Paul. I'm beginning to rethink this statement  - due to the information that is coming together, that 22nd MMG battery was actually formed in UK late in 1915 as it appears to have shipped to India as a complete unit including officers. other ranks and ASC mechanics/drivers. Also it may have been formed or ordered to be formed just prior to MGC taking over the MMGS. As the majority of the personnel were enlisted prior to MGS being formed and seem to have gone the whole way through serving with just this unit. I tend to think they formed and did unit training in UK probably for some months prior to shipping out. Obviously all existing MMGS units became MMG batteries of the MGC(M) but the original personnel probably always considered themselves MMGS regardless of where they ended up.

 

 

Agreed David - and I doubt the documentation is ever going to surface. But I can live in hope!  But the Beltana shipping record is pretty clear - Bty OC, 3 x subalterns, 67 NCOSs and soldiers + the majority of the motorcycles, sidecars and cars - that is a substantial portion of the battery, all shipped together. Paul

[pjwmacro]

James

Thanks for posting more great photos. I hope to have a little more time over the next couple of weeks to try and upload a few more of my grandfathers photos. Sadly(as I have said before) he hasn't captioned his nearly as well as your grandfather!

Best Paul

[pjwmacro]

On 31/05/2017 at 18:26, david murdoch said:

Paul. Got another piece of the jigsaw!

Managed to positively id Sgt Fielder.

Going by The Motor Cycle article he was "Mechanic Sergeant". I figured he was most likely ASC rather than MGC. Bit of a trawl through the  various  ASC A. Fielders, but got him, as his service record survives which confirms him.

He was Arthur James Fielder M2/100503 Army Service Corps,Attd. MGC(M) - way service reads he went straight to MGC(M).

He was from London and  joined ASC 29/5/1915 age 24 and giving trade as motor driver (on his record states mechanic). Married Florence Lillian Mathews 28/8/1815.

On his record shows he went to India with 22nd MMG on 26/2/1916, arriving Bombay 20/3/1916.

Backtracking to his MIC he got BWM only for same reason as the others. He did not qualify for the GSM/clasp as he was already back in UK by November 1919 for demob. Looks like he left 22nd on 29/9/1919 - record is rubber stamped and signed by Molony.

 

David - service record and MIC give him as Alfred - not Arthur. Also appears to have had a child born early 1916 - I cannot make out the name. Also, in light of photo posted by James - of the group at Eastbourne. P6 or 7 of his service recourd - casualty record - recorded as Acting Serjeant - unpaid - place EASTBOURNE!

 

Best Paul

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, pjwmacro said:

 

David - service record and MIC give him as Alfred - not Arthur. Also appears to have had a child born early 1916 - I cannot make out the name. Also, in light of photo posted by James - of the group at Eastbourne. P6 or 7 of his service recourd - casualty record - recorded as Acting Serjeant - unpaid - place EASTBOURNE!

 

Best Paul

Paul. Sorry a typo on my part. I had Alfred written in my notebook. Will do some hunting in the newspaper archives to see if anything useful comes up for Eastbourne. Looking at my grandfather's movements, he enlisted July 1915 and got a photo of him at Bisley August 1915, but he never got into action until 1916. Allowing for basic training then machine gun training could account for a few months. Also by this point there may have been some debate about sending any more batteries to France due to the developing conditions.

[JPJamie]

5 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

James

Thanks for posting more great photos. I hope to have a little more time over the next couple of weeks to try and upload a few more of my grandfathers photos. Sadly(as I have said before) he hasn't captioned his nearly as well as your grandfather!

Best Paul

 

It's a pleasure and I'm trying to find time to do more.  My grandfather at some time took calligraphy classes and liked ink pens a lot. In the late 50's and very early 60's, I used to sit and watch him practicing, so that plays a part in his captioning.  I think the picture of Eastbourne with the group and cap/badge, might be a statement of accomplishment, since the cap is in the forefront.  It's kind of saying "look what we did" or "we're part of the 22nd!"  I agree with David about the time being 1915 and it also looks like summer as they're squinting in the sunlight. So one wonders what transpired between summer 1915 at Eastbourne (opened April 1915) and the Beltana, February 26th, 1916?  

 

Also Paul it's very interesting about Alfred Fielder possibly being a casualty and Acting Sergeant unpaid at Eastbourne.  Why would he be unpaid?  I also noted my grandfather may have been an "acting Corporal."  Why would he be assigned as "acting?"  Eastbourne closed December 1918.

Edited 5 June , 2017 by JPJamie

[pjwmacro]

4 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Paul. Sorry a typo on my part. I had Alfred written in my notebook. Will do some hunting in the newspaper archives to see if anything useful comes up for Eastbourne. Looking at my grandfather's movements, he enlisted July 1915 and got a photo of him at Bisley August 1915, but he never got into action until 1916. Allowing for basic training then machine gun training could account for a few months. Also by this point there may have been some debate about sending any more batteries to France due to the developing conditions.

 

David my Grandfather also enlisted 1915 - Late March - and, as I have said before, we are almost sure he didn"t go to France. I wonder if Eastbourne was used a a transit/training/ forming location for 22 Bty ? 

 

Paul

[pjwmacro]

16 hours ago, JPJamie said:

 

It's a pleasure and I'm trying to find time to do more.  My grandfather at some time took calligraphy classes and liked ink pens a lot. In the late 50's and very early 60's, I used to sit and watch him practicing, so that plays a part in his captioning.  I think the picture of Eastbourne with the group and cap/badge, might be a statement of accomplishment, since the cap is in the forefront.  It's kind of saying "look what we did" or "we're part of the 22nd!"  I agree with David about the time being 1915 and it also looks like summer as they're squinting in the sunlight. So one wonders what transpired between summer 1915 at Eastbourne (opened April 1915) and the Beltana, February 26th, 1916?  

 

Also Paul it's very interesting about Alfred Fielder possibly being a casualty and Acting Sergeant unpaid at Eastbourne.  Why would he be unpaid?  I also noted my grandfather may have been an "acting Corporal."  Why would he be assigned as "acting?"  Eastbourne closed December 1918.

 

James I don't think Fielder was a casualty - despite the name of the page. it just looks as if that page was used to record postings/appointments . The same page records his shipping to and arrival in, India.   I will try and post a picture idc - but am on the phone at present so cannot do. Acting and unpaid rank was not uncommon - basically in Kitcheners Army - because they were all volunteers with generally no military experience then the officers would select likely lads to act as NCOs (there are some records that suggest on some occassions the troops themselves selected NCOs by popular vote). They were all on "Duration of the War" terms of service - so the War Office saved some money by keeping them as acting (and frequently unpaid) rank.

Edited 5 June , 2017 by pjwmacro
spelling

[JPJamie]

12 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

James I don't think Fielder was a casualty - despite the name of the page. it just looks as if that page was used to record postings/appointments . The same page records his shopping to and arrival in, India.   I will try and post a picture idc - but am on the phone at present so cannot do. Acting and unpaid rank was not uncommon - basically in Kitcheners Army - because they were all volunteers with generally no military experience then the officers would select likely lads to act as NCOs (there are some records that suggest on some occassions the troops themselves selected NCOs by popular vote). They were all on "Duration of the War" terms of service - so the War Office saved some money by keeping them as acting (and frequently unpaid) rank.

 

Thanks Paul!  I am not a military man, so these things are obscure to me and not just "understood."  I just recently read a biography (The Last Lion by William Manchester) of Churchill which helps a bit. 

[pjwmacro]

16 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

James I don't think Fielder was a casualty - despite the name of the page. it just looks as if that page was used to record postings/appointments . The same page records his shipping to and arrival in, India.   I will try and post a picture idc - but am on the phone at present so cannot do. Acting and unpaid rank was not uncommon - basically in Kitcheners Army - because they were all volunteers with generally no military experience then the officers would select likely lads to act as NCOs (there are some records that suggest on some occassions the troops themselves selected NCOs by popular vote). They were all on "Duration of the War" terms of service - so the War Office saved some money by keeping them as acting (and frequently unpaid) rank.

 

James as promissed - the page from Fielders Service Record: Or maybe not ! Struggling with technology here. May have to resort to photographing the computer screen.  Wait out.

 

[pjwmacro]

Okay hopefully this cracks it - photo if the computer screen - Fielders service record clearly shows A/Sgt unpaid Eastbourne 5.9.15.

And his embarkation from Devonport 26.2.16. And - mcassel and david  - although Molony has signed his discharge medical form - I think the signature to the right of the embarkation record might be "Roescher" ??

[pjwmacro]

From my grandfathers album. No 3 section Cambridge Barracks Rawlpindi. And the Sgts mess - my grandfather Ernest "Bill" Macro 2nd from left.

Attock Fort. March 1919 _ just before 3rd Afghan War.

[pjwmacro]

Demos for the local troops.