Sainsbury's Christmas Advert

[pehrt]

Would the feelgood factor have come through in the ad had this account been recreated for it?...

For Derek Black (posts 511 and 513):

From which newspapers do these cutting come from? When were they published?

Do you know to which units the soldiers belonged?

Thanks for any help.

Pehr Thermaenius

[hazelclark]

I wonder!

H.C.

[Roger H]

Now now Roger, don't get all pedantic, the General wrote his account on the day, Christmas Day 1914, at the location where the Truce took place, taking information directly from his own troops who had just taken part in the Truce. He himself was offered a meeting with the Germans during the Truce, and declined due to his General's rank. I think that can all safely be called a ' first hand written account '.

Regards,

LF

I'm sorry, but he didn't witness any football !

Roger

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I'm sorry, but he didn't witness any football !

Roger

I was referring to his having provided a first hand account of the Christmas Truce, not a football match, and as I said, what I found of particular interest was that the General had won the V.C., and his son also subsequently won the V.C., quite amazing !

Regards,

LF

[egbert]

This is a must watch (commercial) video, it should bring a tear or two if you are a caring person.

[ianw]

I understand that the England Germany officers commemorative football match the other night was won by England. No doubt a few beers were shared after.

Great that 100 years on such a game can happen in friendship.

[Derek Black]

For Derek Black (posts 511 and 513):

From which newspapers do these cutting come from? When were they published?

Do you know to which units the soldiers belonged?

Thanks for any help.

Pehr Thermaenius

Pehr,

"Slumberland" is from the Aberdeen Evening Express of 8th of january 1915. I think it is a bit of imaginary work by the newspaper though.

The other one is from the Nottingham Evening Post of the 31st of December 1914. However at the start of the article it claims they took it form the Manchester Guardian from the day before (30th) and was written by an officer, he's not named though.

Cheers,

Derek.

[pehrt]

Derek,

Thanks. I have seen a story about play with a tin, sourced from the history of the Lancashire Fusiliers. I will try to find the article in Manchester Guardian to see if there is anything in it that connects to this regiment.

With best wishes

Pehr

[Trev2386]

If any of you are around Dorset, Sherborne Sainsbury's have just restocked.

[Jonathan Saunders]

So glad that I dropped by.

"MG",

Despite losing interest in the GWF specifically because of tedious pontificators like you, I would be delighted to hear your evidence that the Khaki Chums "clearly have not waded through most of the raw material".

"Embarrassing" to hear us speak too?

So, just to put you straight, the Khaki Chums formed the nucleus of the 165 specialist extras who portrayed the men in the ad (plenty of those interviewed were not Khaki Chums). Their role was to make sure that the uniforms, equipment and weapons handling of all the Background was as accurate as possible at all times; a job that was done to a very high standard as always which is why the Chums get asked instead of armchair keyboard experts like you.

The job of historical adviser was mine. I assume that your comments about not wading through most of the raw material was directed at me.

A few minutes research would have found plenty of quotes by me stating that football played an absolutely insignificant part in the Truce.

At the risk of highlighting your ignorance, here is a brief résumé:

I started studying the 1914 Truce in detail in the Summer of 1999, in the build up to the 85th Anniversary commemoration we held at Ploegsteert that Christmas.

At that time the only proper study was the book written by Malcolm Brown and Shirley Seaton; 'The Christmas Truce'. I met with them both and we spoke at length about many aspects of the Truce; locations, veterans accounts and mythical football.

Following the 85th anniversary I kept gathering accounts, letters, War Diaries, reports and mentions in newspaper archives. Friends would send me whatever they found.

In August 2001, already acknowledged as someone who knows a thing or two about the Truce, I was flown to Washington DC to be interviewed for an American programme on the subject.

The other interviewee was Stanley Weintraub who had almost completed his own book, 'Silent Night'. Stanley had written most of it from the far side of the Atlantic and it is not as reliable as Malcolm and Shirley's book.

After publication of Silent Night I met Stanley and his wife over Dinner in London and we spent a pleasant time discussing many aspects of the Truce.

I continued gathering accounts and appeared as an interviewee and adviser on several other Truce programmes as diverse as the Channel 5 programme of 2003, Timewatch and Blue Peter which also ran a feature about it.

On one forgettable occasion I was even asked to appear on the Richard & Judy show to talk about the 1914 Truce. I suggested they ask Malcolm Brown along too and we gave a good account of the Truce between us.

In the Green Room, waiting to go on air, I asked Malcolm about his 1983 BBC Christmas Truce programme. He spoke at length about his inspiration and the simple process of getting it made in the early 1980s.

We spoke about the veterans who appeared such as Leslie Walkington and he agreed that Ernie Williams probably made up his account of a game of football played by "hundreds" on each side.

Over the years, having built up an extensive archive it is easy to spot the fakes and fraudsters too.

Earlier this year I was able to save my old BBC Director friend, Detlef Siebert, from embarrassment by recalling one particular fraudster.

Detlef was making the BBC 'I Was There' programme, using the interviews recorded for the 1964 Great War series, but not used.

I was at work one afternoon when Detlef called, "Taff, I know you are sceptical about football taking place during the Christmas Truce, but I have found an amazingly detailed account by a British Captain which talks about a game his men played with the Germans."

Having spent so many years studying the subject I was immediately able to recall a conversation I had with Shirley Seaton in November 1999. I asked, "Would that be Captain Peter Jackson by any chance?"

"Yes it is", replied Detlef. I was then able to tell him that Jackson was a fantasist who wasn't called Peter, never rose above the dizzy heights of L/Cpl and may not even have reached the Front by Christmas 1914.

Detlef asked Chris Baker to check the records and Chris managed to find a thick file on Jackson

in the BBC archives.

Jackson had not been used for the 1964 series but nearly made it onto screen in a 1968 programme until he was rumbled by a German Truce veteran.

Chris has recently published an excellent book on the Truce which gives an accurate portrayal of the events on the British Front in December, and over Christmas, 1914.

It certainly highlights how much fighting was still going on and how irrelevant football is in the Truce story.

A few months ago UEFA flew me to Noyon for a meeting to discuss the part that football had played in the Truce.

Having laid out all the evidence it was obvious to them that football played an absolutely insignificant role in the 1914 Truce.

Apparently Mr Platini was very keen that they must follow the true story. However, it clearly wasn't what he wanted to hear so they are ignoring all true accounts and have been frantically twisting, distorting and making stuff up, before Platini unveils a new plaque to a game that the 1st Royal Warwicks didn't play against IR134 at St Yvon in a couple of weeks time.

Instead of talking nonsense about the Sainsburys ad maybe it's time serious historians looked into that example of deliberately faking history before our eyes.

I had worked with the production company who made the ad previously. The Director was very keen to be as accurate as possible although he, along with most others working on it, thought they were making a stylised version of the Truce.

To have any validity accounts need to be corroborated. BBC journalists, and I'm sure others too, would never print a story without corroboration from two sources.

The discovery in June of a letter from a German soldier of IR133 to his Mother containing a throwaway line about "playing ball with the English" corroborates the detailed account by Johannes Niemann of the same regiment.

Niemann spoke of his men playing kilted soldiers (almost certainly 2/A&SH although there is nothing from the Scots) on a frozen meadow at Frelinghien.

Two men, in the same place, at the same time, on the same day, is corroboration. Niemann's account is included in the IR133 regimental history too.

Frank Naden was serving with 1/6th Cheshire who had only recently arrived in France. The Battalion had been split up for trench training and Naden's Company was attached to 1st Norfolk.

Naden wrote home and mentioned playing a game with the Germans. The letter was published in at least two newspapers in early 1915.

His account has been widely discounted as all known 1/Nk accounts either state there was no football or that the CO wouldn't let them play.

Several months ago, long before the ad was on the horizon, I spoke to a friend who is an expert on the Norfolk Regiment and who has an extensive archive built up over many years.

With the Centenary approaching, I asked him to look in his archive for any 1/Nk Truce accounts.

I had already had one meeting with the director of the ad and, it has to be said, I was still not that keen to get involved as football was intended to be the main focus.

After a lengthy discussion football was knocked back a little and more of the other typical Truce activities were introduced.

Just before the second meeting an envelope arrived with a Norfolk postmark. The first three sheets contained copies of newspaper cuttings with accounts by 1/Nk men; Wanted to play, had no ball; CO wouldn't let us, etc.

At the top of the final sheet was a note, "I think this is what you are looking for". It was a copy of Cpl Albert Wyatt's letter, published in 1915, which ended with a few lines mentioning that he had played.

Again, two men, same place, same time, same day. Corroboration.

The discovery, after 15 years of looking, of Wyatt's account, gave me the opportunity of basing the ad firmly in accurate history.

The men are badged as 1st Norfolks and 1/6th Cheshires in a ratio of 3:1. 1/Nk were at Wulverghem where we have Wyatt and Naden in the same place at the same time.

There has been plenty of huffing and puffing about how the ad should have shown burials of the dead. However, 1/Nk had not been involved in the failed attacks of 18/19th December and, consequently, had no dead to bury.

The original ****-covering reports of each of the 1/Nk Platoon Commanders still survive. They give detailed accounts and none mention burying dead.

Apart from the three books mentioned, a handful of superficial television programmes and lightweight articles, there has never been a detailed study of the Truce; certainly nothing academic.

Many academics who commented on the ad last week criticised the lack of accuracy without knowing the facts as none of them have ever taken the trouble to study it or look for that "raw material" themselves.

Fortunately I have.

11 million YouTube views, 30+ million television and cinema views and "...at least 240 complaints to the Advertising Standards Authority".

National 'outrage' simply isn't what it used to be.

Since last Thursday night I have been inundated with messages from teachers all over the country with requests for my detailed explanation of the background to the ad and the use of corroborated primary sources.

A bookseller friend reported a 600% increase in Great War book sales by the end of last week. Even if a few of the purchasers are buying Laffin or Clark at least they are taking an interest.

Your faith in War Diaries is pitiful. They are a blunt instrument that need to be viewed in conjunction with all other available evidence.

A frank conversation with a surviving Second World War Adjutant will soon make it clear that the War Diary is to record the details of the unit at war but, just as importantly, to make sure the unit is put in the best possible light for posterity. How many mention the panic and rout after Le Cateau? "Not good potential source material for the future Regimental History, old chap..."

The reports by the 1/Nk Platoon Commanders show the immediate rush to justify why their men were milling about in No Man's Land with Germans. It was quite one thing to tell the CO that you had ordered your men to meet the Germans halfway "before they reached our trench", it would have been a very different matter to tell him that they were playing games and swapping kit, all against orders.

Hopefully this précis will give you a better idea why, when wanting to put together a reasonably accurate portrayal of a tiny part of the 1914 Christmas Truce, they asked me and the Khaki Chums to help instead of choosing an ill-informed windbag.

Perhaps you should spend less time on War Diaries and a bit longer checking your facts before spouting ill-informed nonsense about subjects you clearly know little about in future.

Is the top post of 2014 award going to Chief Chum?

[Moonraker]

Gets my vote.

Moonraker

[Pighills]

And mine!

[Guest]

We're all ill-informed on many subjects, I'm sure some of Martin's posts this year are equally deserving of an award?

I have finally seen the advert, and well done Chief_Chum for the accuracy etc. The trenches look like they have never seen a shell though.

Still think it smells a bit, but that's just my own,ill informed opinion.

Mike

[ianw]

Is the top post of 2014 award going to Khaki Chum?

It is certainly a terrific piece of work and stands out like a diamond amongst dross in this thread. But after all it is Christmas!

[Steven Broomfield]

Still think it smells a bit, but that's just my own,ill informed opinion.

Mike

I wouldn't mind the chance to tell: my Sainsbury's has been out of stock ever since. I suppose it smells like chocolate of one sort or another though.

[Guest]

What happened the other post?

Mike

[Guest]

Interesting period newspaper report on FM Haig's Facebook page Click

Mike

[Stoppage Drill]

I wouldn't mind the chance to tell: my Sainsbury's has been out of stock ever since. I suppose it smells like chocolate of one sort or another though.

I got some in Chippenham t'other day. Haven't eaten any yet.

It was stacked in a special stand with stills from the TV advert.

The wrapper is simply of "period" design on the front - nothing relating specifically to the Grrat War - and the usual modern guff on the back, with the addition of a bit of info about a contribution to RBL.

Really, I wouldn't worry about missing out on anything.

[hazelclark]

• 
  ► 3:46► 3:46

  www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATZOYOEwQu4

  Sep 15, 2014 - Uploaded by CelticThunderVEVO

  Music video by Celtic Thunder performing Christmas 1915. © 2008 Celtic Thunder, Ltd.
• Well, they were a year late, but they must have heard the rumours.
• Hazel C

P.S. The link went a bit funny, but it still works.

H

[Moonraker]

There's an article about the Christmas truce and the football match(es) in today's

Daily Telegraph

Seems to have been well-researched.

Moonraker

[CarylW]

Wasn't the photo shown in the article taken in Salonika though?

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Wasn't the photo shown in the article taken in Salonika though?

Yes, you are correct.

I have a copy of that photograph, which was actually not a British/German football match played on Christmas Day 1914 on the Western Front, but was rather British Officers v ORs from the 26th Divisional Ammunition Train, Army Service Corps playing a football match on Christmas Day 1915, outside their camp near Salonika.

So ' Nil Points ' to the Daily Telegraph for photo research.

Regards,

LF

[Fattyowls]

There's an article about the Christmas truce and the football match(es) in today's

Daily Telegraph

Seems to have been well-researched.

Moonraker

Thanks for the link; I agree that it is quite a good article on the Truce and the football, although from what I have read so far the bar is not set particularly high. At least it attempts to show that football was not at the centre of the truce as most people seem to think. However reading the part that refers to St Yvon and the arrival of the delegation from UEFA to unveil a memorial made me think of Taff Gillingham's Twitter piece in which he lambasts the Belgian Tourist authorities and UEFA for putting the memorial at Ploegsteert Wood. I wonder if the Telegraph article is using the dodgy research by UEFA to justify their choice of location. Could be wrong; I may be getting cynical in my old age.

Pete.

[Mark Hone]

Quite an interesting discussion of matters Christmas Truce on BBC Radio 4's 'Front Row' this evening. The participants included Phil Porter, author of the RSC's play about the Truce ( see thread about this). The Sainsbury's ad was mentioned of course.

[maxi]

Stevenage's Sainsbury has quite a lot of the chocolate bars.

Bought one for a quid and found it rather pleasant.

Maxi