Sainsbury's Christmas Advert

[ianw]

So glad that I dropped by.

Hopefully this précis will give you a better idea why, when wanting to put together a reasonably accurate portrayal of a tiny part of the 1914 Christmas Truce, they asked me and the Khaki Chums to help instead of choosing an ill-informed windbag.

Taff,

Many thanks for your taking the time and trouble to give us some solid information. As you say, it's obvious why people look to you and your group for assistance on this sort of job.

Ian

[John_Hartley]

The football mentions at posts 392 & 395 are well documented and evidenced. Capt Nevill bought one for each of his platoons as a morale booster for 1/7/16. Clearly they were full size balls but I doubt whether men would generally take a full sized ball into the trenches on a tour of duty. Not inconceivable of course but I'd have thought it more likely a ball would have kept at the billets, whereas a small ball would easily be stored in a man's pack, perhaps for a simple game of chucking it about between the men.

[Guest]

Some interesting responses...

War diaries are a pointless reference for any event such as this ...

I disagree. The unit dairies have some very detailed information on the Truce and the level of fraternisation. It is all fascinating reading.There is some very fine detail which has been used by everyone who has published on this subject. The unit diaries have been used to corroborate many aspects of the Truce. Valuable references such as an earlier truce provides important context. There are detailed accounts of how truce agreements were breached, including men held prisoners which added considerable tension and caution in some areas. More context. There are details such as written agreements between the British and Germans on the rules of the new year truce for example.This gives us a very exact idea of how some of the arrangements were made. The unit diaries record men being wounded or killed in the very areas where some of these games allegedly took place. Surely all these are factors that need to be weighed. The unit diaries provide most of the available material, so I would argue they are not a 'pointless reference'. I would say they provide the necessary balance and force us to question other versions of events.

1/6th Bn Cheshire Regt War Diary for 25th Dec 1914: "Casualties...1 wounded"

Makes me wonder. Did this happen? If so how? How does this fit into the events that day. I think this diary entry is a valuable reference point because it raises questions that to my mind have not been answered. 72 British servicemen died on Chritsmas Day 1914 in France and Flanders, from 39 different regiments and more were wounded. These fragments appear to have been forgotten. Where is the balance? MG

[McCudden]

If you open any newspaper from the Great War period, you’ll see advertisements from Corporates capitalising on the war and (indirectly) on the suffering of the combatants. Sainsbury’s like all other large companies will try to attune their advertising to the national mood, taking popular or topical events and manipulating them to sell products. There is nothing new or unusual in that.

Having said that, I can’t say I particularly liked the advert because it felt sanitised and was far too romantic despite its alleged authenticity. There was little feel for the cold and damp these men experienced at the time, nor was there any hint of artillery damage in no-man’s land, casualties, filth or mud. I would finally add that I would probably feel the same negativity for this short film even if it hadn’t been an advertisement.

Alec

[Stoppage Drill]

Having said that, I can’t say I particularly liked the advert because it felt sanitised and was far too romantic despite its alleged authenticity. There was little feel for the cold and damp these men experienced at the time, nor was there any hint of artillery damage in no-man’s land, casualties, filth or mud. I would finally add that I would probably feel the same negativity for this short film even if it hadn’t been an advertisement.

Alec

We'll assume that you're in the "rats, excrement and body parts" camp then.

Aisle 3.

[MikB]

We'll assume that you're in the "rats, excrement and body parts" camp then.

Aisle 3.

How much of that would there have been in trench systems little more than 3 months old at Christmas '14?

I always thought that stuff was for later...

Regards,

MikB

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Sainsbury were not the first to use advertising relating to WW1 to sell their products, such advertising seems to be as old as ............ WW1.

LF

[John_Hartley]

1/6th Bn Cheshire Regt War Diary for 25th Dec 1914: "Casualties...1 wounded"

I understand Martin's point. Lots of diaries mentioning the truce and some considerable detail about fraternisation but not a single "official" mention of football. In spite of that, I find it hard to accept that these young men did not engage in some form of game - not only is what young men do, it'd be keeping them warm during what was clearly a number of hours spent in No Man's Land. And, if so, then why not football - it'd be the shared game.

Whilst it may be relevent that the Norfolk's diary has no mention, I would not pay too much attention to 6/Cheshires' diary. As we know the battalion was divvied up between the three regular army battalions of the brigade. As such, I would not expect there to be much detail in their own diary. It's similar to those occasions when battalions send off significant number of men to be attached to, say, an RE tunnelling company for several days. There is rarely description of those activities, often not even a casualty mention.

[kenf48]

Sainsbury were not the first to use advertising relating to WW1 to sell their products, such advertising seems to be as old as ............ WW1.

LF

and if you were caught up in a Zeppelin raid reach for the Hall's Tonic wine - mind you it might have a calming effect on this thread

Fortunately th ad is lacking in detail and doesn't show the terror and panic caused by this German atrocity against the civilian population only the consequences...

Ken

[Guest]

How much of that would there have been in trench systems little more than 3 months old at Christmas '14?

I always thought that stuff was for later...

Regards,

MikB

It seems conditions were quite wet. The Norfolk's diary simply states they had a very bad and wet approach. They took over from the 1st Bn DCLI who had this to say:

17th Dec 1914. On the night of the 17th & 18th Dec our line was taken over by the NORFOLK REGT, 15th INF BDE and we withdrew to billets at ST JEAN CAPPEL.

Every night during our period on this last section of defence, was occupied in digging fresh communication trenches, repairing & improving existing trenches and in doing all that lay in our power to improve the drainage of them, a task which was never ending as no sooner were the trenches drained than the water filtered in again to exactly the same depth.

During the last afternoon in these trenches the enemy shelled us to a slight extent but no damage was done.

Sgt J WISE our Pioneer Sergeant was unfortunately killed on the night of the 10th Dec by a chance bullet from an enemy sniper. He was a great loss to the Regiment (& we lost an old & trusted friend in him).

Earlier they recorded some rather grim conditions in the same area:

4th Dec 1914. (1st - 4th Dec) We remained in billets until the 4th Dec when we marched via BAILLEUL - NEUVE EGLISE to WULVERGHEM from which village we took over the trenches then held by the KING'S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INF of the 13th INF BDE. These trenches were in a sufficiently bad state when we first took them over but during the first night so heavy was the rain that the right section of trenches was flooded to a depth of 2ft 6 inches by water which arrived off the hill opposite on which were the German line.

5th-7th Dec 1914. C Coy (Capt C B SCOTT) was holding these trenches at the time and during the whole of the next 18 hours we were bound to remain in this semi submerged condition.

The whole of the ground on which our trench was situated was practically nothing but a series of water meadows & no matter where we dug, water was invariably found at a depth of about 2 feet below the surface. It was therefore impossible to improve matters for C Coy in any other method than by erecting a parapet behind which they could lay. Even here they were compelled to lay in a mixture of mud & water some 4 " deep. Except during the night it was impossible to move from behind this parapet as by showing ones head above the parapet, immediately drew shots from the enemy trenches which were situated opposite this part of the line, just in front of LA PETITE Fm at a distance of about 130 yards from our parapet.

[Guest]

15th Inf Bde: 25th Dec 1914: Christmas Day. hard frost and fog. Very quiet all day except for a little distant artillery fire to N. Hear that the opposing trenches in one (14th) Bde became friendly over cigars etc. Distributed Princess Mary's gifts in the morning.

The morning was foggy but cleared later. About 2 pm German Officer unarmed walked towards Norfolk's trenches followed by others. Our men shouted to them to stop without success and so to prevent them from seeing our trenches went out to meet them and for about 1 1/2 hours 200-400 British and German troops including Officers conversed and sang hymns together. Germans said they were going to open fire for 3 days¹. Little mention of war was made. They expected it to finish within 2 months at latest. More Germans came out of front trenches than it was thought the trenches held.

1. I think the author - the Brigade Major (Weatherby) meant to write "Germans said they were not going to open fire for 3 days". My speculation. Interestingly Smith Dorrien visited the trenches the next day accompanied by the same Brigade Major. It would be interesting to see if that meeting was recorded. Smith-Dorrien was rather critical of arrangements in the trenches.

This diary was in a bit of a mess. It ran from August to 2nd October (WO 95/1566/1) and restarted on 1st Jan 1915 (WO 95/1566/2) . November and December 1914 was missing until recently. Reported to TNA on 17 Sep this year. TNA very kindly found the missing parts, reorganised it and sent me a copy on 29th Sep 2014, so this part of the diary has only been available online for a few months this year I believe. MG

Edit. It appears the online diary for 15th Inf Bde is still in a mess. Anyone with NMA access can see the NMA version (from TNA) is still the old disorganised one. ...so it appears no-one has online access. Hmmm.

[Derek Black]

I think one feels instinctively that in the conditions and circumstances of the Christmas Truce, men not knowing quite what to do and mostly not speaking each other's language would resort to some sort of game. We tend to assume that the obvious game would be football, but given the ground conditions, men wrapped up in cold-weather clothing and the possible absence of a proper ball, I've always thought that some form of handball would be more likely, perhaps played with an improvised ball. In fact, I could very easily imagine the Germans starting some sort of hand-to-hand throwing game with a bundled piece of clothing and the British starting to join in, but taking to kicking the 'ball' as soon as it went to ground, with the whole event rapidly becoming a mixed melee.

Interestingly In a letter to a local paper a man reports their Dr had suggesting a curling match against the Germans on Christmas day as their was a hard frpost. No idea if it was played though?

Derek

[ianw]

Interestingly In a letter to a local paper a man reports their Dr had suggesting a curling match against the Germans on Christmas day as their was a hard frpost. No idea if it was played though?

Derek

Interesting that a Scot moves the debate on to their national game - well it certainly isn't football!

[Willywombat]

Whether the Sainsbury's ad portrays the truth or not, and whether it is blatant commercialism or not, one fact remains:

The Christmas 'truce' was a foolhardy stunt by irresponsible soldiers who really should have known better.

It was, quite rightly, stamped on pretty quickly.

Snipers don't go on Christmas holiday and neither do the enemy's intelligence gatherers: the whole affair was a woeful security breach and the participants bordering on traitorous.

A shameful chapter, and one best forgotten.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Whether the Sainsbury's ad portrays the truth or not, and whether it is blatant commercialism or not, one fact remains:

The Christmas 'truce' was a foolhardy stunt by irresponsible soldiers who really should have known better.

It was, quite rightly, stamped on pretty quickly.

Snipers don't go on Christmas holiday and neither do the enemy's intelligence gatherers: the whole affair was a woeful security breach and the participants bordering on traitorous.

A shameful chapter, and one best forgotten.

Can we take it that you do not approve of the 1914 Christmas Truce............. ?

There were very few reports of either side violating the Truce, and a report of a " Christmas day a stray shot from our front right hit one of ours, No.6179 Cpl W S Smith, No.2 Company (from which he died the next day). " and the intelligence gathering was equally advantageous to both sides.

I doubt that it would be correct to brand those taking part as traitors, merely human beings interacting with each other.

Regards,

LF

[Guest]

There is no report of either side violating the Truce, and nobody seems to have been been shot, least ways not by the enemy,

Regards,

LF

I am afraid that simply is not the case. MG

[Chris_Baker]

... nobody seems to have been been shot, least ways not by the enemy ...

Depends on exactly how you draw the line. As an example, several officers and men of the 2nd Queen's were taken prisoner and others fired upon and hit during an agreement for burial of the dead. I know a good book that covers it ...

[NigelS]

... I would say they provide the necessary balance and force us to question other versions of events.

1/6th Bn Cheshire Regt War Diary for 25th Dec 1914: "Casualties...1 wounded"

Makes me wonder. Did this happen? If so how? How does this fit into the events that day. I think this diary entry is a valuable reference point because it raises questions that to my mind have not been answered. 72 British servicemen died on Chritsmas Day 1914 in France and Flanders, from 39 different regiments and more were wounded. These fragments appear to have been forgotten. Where is the balance? MG

A possible explanation for some of the casualties during the truce might be found in the final paragraphs of my post in another topic Click

NigelS

[Willywombat]

Can we take it that you do not approve of the 1914 Christmas Truce............. ?

Of course not... We were at war!

Don't get me wrong - truces have their place (when properly organised) to collect wounded, bury the dead, etc. etc. They have gone on throughout history, and long may that continue, in the spirit of humanity.

But those are (usually) organised at a higher level (at least junior officer level) - not by irresponsible individuals.

It's all very well being misty-eyed and romantic about the 'truce', but participants in silly, spur-of-the-moment acts of madness like this not only put themselves at risk, but also those around them.

The 2nd Grenadier Guards at Festubert had the right idea - a few Germans in their sector tried to get friendly on Christmas day after several days of bitter fighting. The Grenadiers soon told them what they thought of that!

[Guest]

From the Fifth battalion the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) 1914-1919 edited by Maj D Martin OBE published in 1936.

"For roughly twenty-four hours Christmas Eve to late afternoon on Christmas Day they ceased firing at us and we reciprocated. An attempt at fraternisation took place on Christmas day, "Jerry" leaving his trench unarmed. Certain souvenirs were exchanged and if it had been left to the soldiery on both sides the war would have been declared there and then a draw. But towards late afternoon on Christmas day a stray shot from our front right hit one of ours, No.6179 Cpl W S Smith, No.2 Company (from which he died the next day). The Saxons opposite us were at pains to let us know it was a Prussian who had fired the shot which killed Smith. This broke the spell however and the war was resumed after a tacit truce of twenty-four hours".

From memory there are about half a dozen incidents like this. Also imprisoning men on the pretext that they had seen too much of the trench system. Retaliation by the Brits who made a number of Germans POW.

[squirrel]

The football mentions at posts 392 & 395 are well documented and evidenced. Capt Nevill bought one for each of his platoons as a morale booster for 1/7/16. Clearly they were full size balls but I doubt whether men would generally take a full sized ball into the trenches on a tour of duty. Not inconceivable of course but I'd have thought it more likely a ball would have kept at the billets, whereas a small ball would easily be stored in a man's pack, perhaps for a simple game of chucking it about between the men.

Frank Edwards, the Footballer of Loos (1/18th County of London battalion the London Irish Rifles), took several footballs to the front line to kick over the top on 25th September 1915. An Officer apparently pierced the footballs once they were inflated. However, Edwards had kept one deflated in his pack (probably his haversack) and inflated it before going over the top and kicking it toward the enemy trenches.

[squirrel]

The football mentions at posts 392 & 395 are well documented and evidenced. Capt Nevill bought one for each of his platoons as a morale booster for 1/7/16. Clearly they were full size balls but I doubt whether men would generally take a full sized ball into the trenches on a tour of duty. Not inconceivable of course but I'd have thought it more likely a ball would have kept at the billets, whereas a small ball would easily be stored in a man's pack, perhaps for a simple game of chucking it about between the men.

Frank Edwards, the Footballer of Loos (1/18th County of London battalion the London Irish Rifles), took several footballs to the front line to kick over the top on 25th September 1915. An Officer apparently pierced the footballs once they were inflated. However, Edwards had kept one deflated in his pack (probably his haversack) and inflated it before going over the top and kicking it toward the enemy trenches.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Christmas day a stray shot from our front right hit one of ours, No.6179 Cpl W S Smith, No.2 Company (from which he died the next day). The Saxons opposite us were at pains to let us know it was a Prussian who had fired the shot which killed Smith.

Martin,

Thank you for pointing our the stray shot which killed Cpl. Smith, I have made the appropriate edit.

Regards,

LF

[Guest]

Martin,

Thank you for pointing our the stray shot which killed Cpl. Smith, I have made the appropriate edit.

Regards,

LF

Here is evidence of other breaches - slightly later - in some areas the truce lingered for a day or two... One of the men captured was the Scout who made the initial contact. It is also a good example of the level of detail and clearly shows how Brigade HQ diaries were quite happy to report events. This is from HQ 20th Inf Bde.

24^th Dec 1914. Last night one of our Scouts Pte MURKER of the Scots Guards was out , he heard a voice from the German trenches shouting that the Germans would like to ‘parley’. A man came out to him and said they wanted to have a quiet Xmas Day. All their men were sick of the war. They had lost twenty-five killed in last Friday’s attack. On an officer approaching the man changed his conversation and began talking about Xmas. The officer gave our scout some cigars and sent a message in to say that if we agreed not to shoot today they the Germans would do the same and Xmas Day might be passed in peace.

25th Dec 1914. The Day passed off with not a shot being fired after 9 am by either side.

About 10 am both sides appeared outside their trenches. An officer went across and met the German commanding officer and they agreed to bury all the dead which were lying out between the trenches. The dead were collected and took both German and British were buried side by side. Captain Chaplain of the Forces ADAM conducting the burial service which was interpreted and a German student of Divinity repeating it after him. The following report was received from Captain Gordon commanding No.2 Subsection:

“The Commandant of the German Forces immediately in front of my subsection came out of his trench about 10 am. I met him halfway between the two lines of trenches. We agreed to bury the dead any bodies of our men over the halfway line should be carried across by their men and vice-versa, so that there was no possibility of viewing the trenches. This was done and all the dead have now been buried. I would like to point out that the Borders who made their night attack were intermingled with German dead and it would appear that the Germans made a counter-attack. I observed the following regiments holding the points of the line immediately in front of my subsection: - The Saxon Corps, 54^th and 159^th Bavarians. The men are mostly young but of good physique. Noticed the majority of these carried hand grenades at their sides. Several of them showed me the ‘Iron Cross’ which they had received which would make it appear that they had been fighting in other parts before coming here. I obtained information about Captain Askew, 2^nd Border Regt he was in their trenches firing his revolver at them when he was killed. Captain Hanbury-Tracy, Scots Guards was captured by them (wounded) and lived for 6 hours. His effects were taken off him and are being sent home to his wife by them. He said only seven prisoners were taken during the night attack on the 18^th. I am quite confident none of the Germans approached our trenches and men were on observation in the trenches all day” –

Captain H Taylor’s body was also found and the Germans reported they captured one other wounded officer which must be Lieut R Nugent Scots Guards as he is the only one not accounted for.

26^th Dec 1914. The day passed off quietly, neither side firing and both sides outside their trenches walking about. The Germans complained that they had no meat. Some of the men sent them over some ‘Bully Beef’. They are said to have fought for it like tigers. Most of the men reported ‘missing’ after the fight on the night of the 18^th-19^th are now accounted for. The Germans say they only took ten prisoners. The remainder were all killed or died of wounds. A great many of the dead, both British and German were found lying together on the ground between the trenches, silent witnesses to the fierce contest which must have taken place in the darkness. The Germans testified that most of their wounds were caused by bayonets. This is accounted for the fact that our men’s rifles were so clogged up with mud they were unable to fire with them. Each man is now being served out with a loose canvas bag to slip over the muzzle of his rifle and which is able to be pulled off instantly the rifle is required for use. Even if the rifle is required on the spur of the moment it does no harm to fire it off with the bag still in position on the rifle. Large numbers of men were employed in cleaning out the RIVER-DE-LAYES in the hopes of being able to drain some of the water out of the trenches. Every day more of the latter are inundated with water by the increasing floods.

In consequence of so many men being killed and wounded, repairing and putting fresh wire out in front of the trenches, trestles are now being made. They are wired up before being placed and rolled out, men crawling out to peg them down when in position.

A false alarm at 11 pm of an intended German attack. All was quiet however throughout the night.

27^th Dec 1914. Many trenches fall in and the day was busily employed in repairing them.

The Germans tried to come over and enjoy another day’s so called “armistice” but were informed that they must keep to their trenches. They seemed to be quite indignant and said they wouldn’t fire if we didn’t but if we had orders to fire to signal to them with three volleys first fired into the air.

28^th Dec 1914. Last night the Germans enticed four Scots Guards Privates to come into their trenches. Needless to say they have not returned.*... [continues]

* According to the 2nd Bn Gordon Highlanders' diary some 40 Germans who paid a visit to the 2nd Bn Border Regt were kept prisoners as a reprisal

[Willywombat]

Whether it was a Saxon or a Prussian bullet that killed Cpl Smith makes no difference.

Whichever irresponsible individual it was who initiated the 'truce' on the British side in that sector still had to carry the weight of guilt for the poor man's death.

Something, I am sure, he bitterly regretted for the rest of his life.